Good Speed / Bad Speed

[R1-Limited]

I think this should be the campaign out there. I've seen things getting worse year on... our driving/riding condition is sad. More and more drivers/riders just don't know how to drive/ride properly anymore. Accidents are becoming norms and happen on daily basis.

One can only hope.

On a serious note

There are many factors to your thoughts, one is that many more individuals are riding for the first time on bikes they have no business on in the first place. I am and always will be an advocate for tiered licensing. My Son wanted to ride street, I told him to go ride dirt first in any and all conditions he wants for 2 years. He will learn far more on handling a bike in unpredictable events in the dirt then he would on the street in my opinion.

The Other, there are far to many willing dealers to oversell a product to a kid who has no business on a liter bike in my opinion.

Another is there are way far to many stupid parents who allow there kids and never educate themselves on the above two.

Outside of that, you can never predict anything while on the road. I always use this adage, never underestimate the ingenuity of an idiot. That be said, I was on the road coming home and some ding dong on a sport bike is lane splitting at 65 plus, he buzzes me, and yes it did startle me. I have seen this same numb nut numerous times using the freeway in an unsafe manner. It is predictabvle he will be (I hope Not) but time is running out a statistic soon. His thrashed scared bike is a good indicator.

So there are so many ways to look at this. All you can do is all you can do and that is all you can do. What I mean is Ride safe for the Environment your in, use your brains and not your balls for thinking. Last Take it to the track and learn from an instructor :thumbup

 

[DataDan]

There are many factors to your thoughts, one is that many more individuals are riding for the first time on bikes they have no business on in the first place....

The Other, there are far to many willing dealers to oversell a product to a kid who has no business on a liter bike in my opinion.

Another is there are way far to many stupid parents who allow there kids and never educate themselves on the above two.

Outside of that, you can never predict anything while on the road. I always use this adage, never underestimate the ingenuity of an idiot.

Interesting thoughts, but this thread is about speed--poor ways we think about it, better ways to think about it, and a strategy that identifies both opportunities to have some fun going fast and situations that demand full attention on survival.

 

[R1-Limited]

Interesting thoughts, but this thread is about speed--poor ways we think about it, better ways to think about it, and a strategy that identifies both opportunities to have some fun going fast and situations that demand full attention on survival.

Fully understand the Topic Principle, I was remarking only about the Quoted post.

But speed is a misnomer really. Take for example, on occasion I note a person weaving in and out of traffic to get ahead of everyone only to be placed in the same spot at the same destination with everyone else at the same time.

So how does that fit?

Speed is not to be misunderstood as something that makes you fast. you have heard of the adage Slow Down to Go Faster right? Slow Down to Go Faster? How in the heck do you do that?

Its a metaphor for deliberate practice form + style + mechanics = speed
I hope that made sense, as Ernie stated many folk ride for years and never approach any higher level or attain any higher level as to becoming faster, better or safer.

On the other hand people put in hundreds of hours pay thousands of dollars to be instructed and practice yet never achieve anything higher. Some do, some dont.

It is my argument that unless your specifically targeting a goal, say Corner Speed and Comfort! Form + Style + Mechanics = nothing. There is so many areas I can say I need to improve on, if I approach it with the mentality of I have to learn this or esle, then I learn nothing. It is one step at a time, for instance, I am very old school with regards to Knee Dragging Heroics, I much prefer the Chandler Style over the Roberts Style.

If you note the two different styles, Chandler never was known as a racer who Hung off his bikes, Instead he is well known for his mechanics and Deliberate approach. Much like what CLASS Teaches.

To end it is for me Good Speed / Bad Speed an approach in attitude as it is in style and form. I can say I have far more fun now as an older mature rider, then I did as a kid. I enjoy everything about riding, going fast (As Ability allows / Not riding over my head) going slow, hangin out and learning new stuff. This is why I can say now Attitude has everything to do with Safety / Speed Good or bad in any situation. I have ridden with people that I simply do not feel comfortable with. Many reason, they are much faster then I, so I slow down and ride in my ability, as ride with people who are going to get themselves hurt and I slow down to stay behind them, for obvious reasons

 

[iehawk]

Thanks, Dan. didn't mean to hijack the thread there, but when I read predictability, it's just the word I've been looking for to explain what's out there (or lack thereof).

In my experience about going a little too fast (or not), it all comes down to my past experience, specifically after going through the same route many times (eg. commuting or going to the same twisties); which of course brings back the point of going on track days.

There's just no other way to substitute that. Granted, you can gain similar feel from driving, the fact that you can't recover as easily from going over the limit on the bike compared to in the car makes it more difficult to learn on the bike.

Unfortunately, it comes down to the education again, or lacking the standard. MSF is great, but it's not mandatory and it only covers the basics of the basics.

Here's how I ride: I go as fast as I can see I can stop.

 

[DataDan]

Thanks, Dan. didn't mean to hijack the thread there, but when I read predictability, it's just the word I've been looking for to explain what's out there (or lack thereof).

I didn't see it as a threadjack at all. I brought up "predicatability", you elaborated. :thumbup

Here's how I ride: I go as fast as I can see I can stop.

Which is...

Rule 1: Maintain speed that allows you to see the roadway at least 4 seconds ahead.​

 

[DataDan]

To end it is for me Good Speed / Bad Speed an approach in attitude as it is in style and form. I can say I have far more fun now as an older mature rider, then I did as a kid. I enjoy everything about riding, going fast (As Ability allows / Not riding over my head) going slow, hangin out and learning new stuff. This is why I can say now Attitude has everything to do with Safety / Speed Good or bad in any situation. I have ridden with people that I simply do not feel comfortable with. Many reason, they are much faster then I, so I slow down and ride in my ability, as ride with people who are going to get themselves hurt and I slow down to stay behind them, for obvious reasons

And that's the attitude this thread is promoting. :thumbup

We can't instill good judgment about speed with a lump of text on a computer screen. But we can sketch out a strategy via a set of rules that are relatively easy to follow. A rider who buys into the strategy and adopts the rules might find that problems he used to experience--getting cut off, entering turns too fast--no longer occur. The benefit of the strategy is reinforced, and the rules, along with others he learns on his own, coalesce into good judgment about speed.

 

[R1-Limited]

And that's the attitude this thread is promoting. :thumbup

We can't instill good judgment about speed with a lump of text on a computer screen. But we can sketch out a strategy via a set of rules that are relatively easy to follow. A rider who buys into the strategy and adopts the rules might find that problems he used to experience--getting cut off, entering turns too fast--no longer occur. The benefit of the strategy is reinforced, and the rules, along with others he learns on his own, coalesce into good judgment about speed.

I believe it comes with age and experience but not all the time. As a Young rider, I took for granted many things, I did things mainly out of lack of experience, ignorance and to much adrenalin (aka the proverbial, Hey Guys Watch this) got me more times then I can count.

We "AS A COMMUNITY" especially the older more experienced riders should and must pass knowledge on. If we see bad judgment, we should correct appropriately of course :ride

Thats just my own opinion

 

[FizzrGeezr]

Which is...

Rule 1: Maintain speed that allows you to see the roadway at least 4 seconds ahead.​

This makes a lot of sense except....

4 seconds ahead on 35 or 9 blind curves is often about 15 mph. At which point I become the following cage's hood ornamnent.

So I remain with the question: how to judge best safe speed for blind curves?

 

[DataDan]

This makes a lot of sense except....

4 seconds ahead on 35 or 9 blind curves is often about 15 mph. At which point I become the following cage's hood ornamnent.

Try it. Count out seconds to the farthest piece of pavement you can see as you approach a blind turn. At 15mph, four seconds would be 88 feet. I don't think any turn on either 9 or 35 is nearly that blind. Sight distance as short as 30 yards is more like something you'd find on Tunitas or Calaveras. And as I said in the original post for Rule 1: "At speeds below 40mph, a 3-second interval gives you adequate braking distance."

The larger point is that in some turns, the speed at which you're able to deal with an unseen hazard like a gravel-strewn apex or a fallen motorcycle is extremely limited. In other turns, sight distance is greater and doesn't limit speed. If you adopt a mode of thinking about cornering speed that recognizes sight distance as a limiting factor just as important as grip or lean angle, you reduce risk in blind turns while still taking advantage of opportunities for serious fun in turns with better visibility.

So I remain with the question: how to judge best safe speed for blind curves?

See Rule 2: Use the Vanishing Point technique to control speed in turns.

 

[Marcoose]

This [4-second rule] makes a lot of sense except ... 4 seconds ahead on 35 or 9 blind curves is often about 15 mph. At which point I become the following cage's hood ornamnent.

As Dan pointed, the 4-second rule is a function of the speed, and nevertheless, many turns on 9 demand 15mph. Just read the accident statistics.

As cars generally put faster lap times than bikes, many drivers can drive faster than you can ride 35 or 9. Thus, you're always going to be somebody's hood ornament. You can always pull to the right, motion to the following driver to pass you, and you can continue and enjoy your ride at the good speed, instead of the bad speed. Again, the stats speak for themselves.

Cheers,

Marc.

 

[DataDan]

Revisiting the 4-Second Rule

In a recent discussion about a crash where a motorcycle hit a bozo making a U in a blind turn, the subject of estimating braking distance came up. One poster remarked that he has a hard time judging the distance required to stop, which is not at all surprising. Since it increases with the square of speed--double the speed, quadruple the distance--lots of experience is needed to accurately gauge braking distance at different speeds. Until you've accumulated that experience, you need a way to make sure you'll have enough stopping distance when that bozo makes his U-turn in front of you.

Rule 1 of the speed strategy in this thread dictates a maximum speed that ensures adequate braking distance, but the rule is stated in terms of time, eliminating the need to judge braking distance: Maintain speed that allows you to see the roadway at least 4 seconds ahead. If you have 4 seconds of clear pavement, you should be able to come to a complete stop if an obstacle comes into view beyond a blind turn or crest.

This table shows how the 4-Second Rule, combined with normal braking skill, gives you the space you need to brake for an unpleasant surprise.

For example, from 60mph with a 4-second sightline interval and 1 second reaction time, you will have 264 feet to stop. That can be achieved with deceleration of 15 feet/second^2. But with a 2-second interval, you will have only 88 feet to stop, requiring deceleration of 44 feet/second^2. Because the deceleration values are meaningless without context, the colors show the level of the braking they represent.

• Green indicates less braking force than required for a satisfactory score on the MSF test. The 4-second rule tries to keep braking in this range. You can probably brake much harder, but that extra skill is kept in reserve for when your 4-second interval has tightened up to 3 seconds, when it takes more than 1 second to react to a hazard that surprises you, or when surface conditions limit grip.
  
  
• Yellow indicates braking force that ranges from a top MSF score up to the standard that motorcycle LEOs must meet. You can probably brake in this range, but if you often rely on this level of skill to deal with unseen hazards, you have no reserve left for the unexpected.
  
  
• Red indicates braking performance that starts at a level very few riders can achieve in a street-riding emergency and ranges up to rates that a street motorcycle simply isn't capable of. If you need to brake this hard to avoid an obstacle, you're most likely going to hit it.

Following the 4-Second Rule doesn't mean spoiling your fun by riding around at warning-sign speeds all day. In many turns, you have a sightline interval greater than 4 seconds even at truly stupid speeds. There the limits are your skill and the motorcycle's capabilities. The rule kicks in only when the sightline shortens and the danger from an unseen threat increases. So it shows you both where unknowns set the limit and where you are constrained by the limits of your own abilities.

The 4-Second Rule isn't an absolute. Experienced riders with many thousands of miles adjust speed to the situation without this rule or any other; it eventually becomes an automatic decision. But while you're gaining the experience needed to develop that intuitive judgment, it's nice to have an easy-to-follow rule of thumb to help you out. There's much more about the rule in the original post linked above, including tips for using it and exceptions that increase and decrease the requirement.

 

[GAJ]

You're right. My bad. It's now set to "public".

Great chart Dan.

Years ago I was dumb and applied a 2 second rule...never resulted in a crash, but that was pure dumb luck.

In the past year alone I have come into two blind right hand turns only to find a car doing a slow 3 point U-Turn!

Had I not been using the 4+ second sightline philosophy, I'm guessing I would have impacted them both!

I hope you don't mind but I linked this thread and posted an image of your chart in a thread on MotorcycleUSA's Forum.

 

[kluts]

Just visited this thread. It should be required reading. Thank you.

 

[B Strong]

Great thread - thanks to DD for starting the discussion.

 

[DataDan]

When the speed limit is too...high?

One aim of this thread is to encourage you to think about safe speed independent of the posted limit. Instead, consider sight distance, cross-traffic entry points, parking, prevailing flow of traffic, and all the other factors that shape the threats motorcyclists face. Of course, a 90mph reading on CHP radar trumps your comprehensive hazard analysis, so your assessment must also consider the posted limit. But if you're willing to risk a ticket in exchange for a little fun, at least you'll be risking only a ticket, not adding substantially to crash risk.

Another application of this mode of thinking is identifying spots where the limit is too high and prudence demands lower speed. On a rural road where the default limit of 55mph applies, a sharp turn is an obvious example, but homes and businesses also present hazards. Here's a popular wine tasting room just a few feet from one of my favorite Central Coast backroads. The limit is 55, but on a weekend afternoon 25-30mph is about the maximum due to visitors coming, going, and milling around.

An explicitly posted limit in an urban or suburban area can also be too high for the location, a factor in a 2008 crash in Carlsbad (coastal San Diego County). Observing the 45mph limit, a rider collided with an SUV pulling out of a driveway in the block shown here (link to Google Maps street view, also in the photo below). The seriously injured rider sued the city of Carlsbad, alleging that they knew the street was dangerous but failed to correct it, and eventually settled for $2.9 million.

The right-hand curve, parked cars, and hedges near the street create a situation where the posted 45mph limit is too fast because residents are unable to safely exit their driveways. In the view above, the second car parked on the street is between two driveways, the nearer one 150ft from the camera or 2.3 seconds travel time at 45mph. A vehicle could begin to pull into the street with no traffic on the left and be hit 3 seconds later. But an approaching rider alert to the danger of limited sight distance will slow to a speed that allows braking to a stop for a hazard just out of view.


The 4-second rule (see posts #51 and #91) has been discussed here in the context of sport riding, but it also applies to speed judgment in traffic situations where the view to potential threats is limited. Don't let the authority of a posted speed limit (or any other traffic law) overrule your better judgment about safety. You're the one who will suffer the consequences, so make your own decisions.

 

[dtrides]

Lot's of good stuff here. I would like to add one more: Luke, use the force!
Intuition plays high in my book when out riding. I try to pay attention to the unseen (feelings, intuition) and integrate with known (experience, visual input) and the unknown (scenarios of "what if").
This has served me well and yet needs nurturing every time I ride so I don't 'intellectualize myself' into a dangerous situation.
DT.

 

[slowblood]

Awhile ago, I started to make myself more conscious of speed as feet per second. It makes easier to relate to what you can observe.

 

[czgheib954]

I try and teach these things to my gf, she thinks I'm nagging her.

 

[Papi]

As a competitive licensed "speeder", it's really interesting how you learn to think and perceive speed.

When I started riding 40 years ago, speed was risky, dangerous but yet psychologically thrilling. Our equipment BITD was sparse, the bikes took mastery to ride, they didn't handle well and stopped horribly.

Now fast forward to today. Our modern well equipped machines and riders have capability to speed without perception of danger. The machines are so smooth to ramp up speed, it's easy to speed beyond ones riding capabilities.

Being one of the few here that has reached 200MPH on a bike in Land Speed Competition, I can tell you first hand that Speed is the last thing going through my mind past 150MPH. The only checklist running through my head is:

1. Exit and Shut down strategies; what is my plan when something fails? Where do I point the bike safely to walk away?

2. At near 300 feet per second, are the conditions on the Salt (Bonneville) or dry lake or runway such that I am facing challenges I need to re-program my mindset and abilities.

3. How does the bike feel, sound, behave? How do I feel? Is the bike and my geometry correct? How are the environmental conditions like wind effecting me?

These three core things can be applied to Street riding as well. You should:

1. Always scan ahead and anticipate a problem "could" happen. How will your street Speed take a part in your strategy to ride safely? This is basic MSF stuff.

2. How are the conditions of your ride going to effect your Speed? Should you bring it down a click or two?

3. How does your bike and you, the rider, feel? If you are fighting the bike or yourself at any moment, slow your speed way down, pull over and get off. A lot of errors can occur by not recognizing when the ride is not "right".

Last, be aware of whats happening around you. Even when I am speeding down a semi-straight line on a course, or riding to work on my commuter, it's easy to lose sight that your speed will greatly effect a negative outcome.

Manage your Speed safely, whether on the road, the track or in a sanctioned competition. :thumbup

 

[SierraHotel01]

There's an old saying among Fighter Pilots:

"Speed is Life"

Unfortunately, it doesn't apply to motorcycles.