Good Speed / Bad Speed

DataDan

Mama says he's bona fide
In the recent thread Skill is Overrated I wondered what, if anything, the motorcycling community can do to promote good riding judgment. Urging fellow riders to wear protective gear and get trained is one thing. But trying to describe the observations, thought processes, and decisions that support a sense of when/where/how to ride to keep risk at an acceptable level is much more difficult.

As tzrider wrote in that thread: "It may not be possible to articulate a single, one-size-fits-all standard for judgment. Riders need to be able to honestly look at what they're trying to get from the experience of riding and what they're willing to risk to get it. They need to understand when they're risking more than they really want to." But in one aspect of riding judgment--managing speed--I think there are some simple rules riders of all skill levels can take advantage of. Following rules may not be the same as exercising good judgment, but judgment can develop as one comes to understand why the rules are necessary.

Eventually in this thread I'd like to brainstorm ideas about how speed on public roads causes crashes and speed-management strategies that go along with good judgment. But first I want to explore the pathological thinking about speed that is common in the sportbike community.


Many motorcycle crashes (though hardly all) are due to excessive speed. By excessive I don't mean "over the posted limit." I mean that the rider is unable to keep the motorcycle under control or that speed is so far beyond the prevailing flow of traffic that other motorists don't perceive the motorcycle as a threat and can't avoid a collision. How do riders get themselves into situations like that? Part of the problem, as I see it, is that we don't think about speed in ways that support good decision-making.

Our training in speed judgment can be summed up in two words: speed limits. Obey the speed limit and you'll be OK. Exceed it and you're taking your life in your hands. That's what we're told, beginning in driver education and continuing in rider education. No need for further discussion, and subtleties be damned. But that message falls apart in about a week as we find that we can often get away with exceeding the limit, and the only potential consequence is a ticket. With the loss of our only speed judgment standard, lame as it was, we no longer have any basis to distinguish between safe and unsafe speed because we never learned how to make the necessary observations and decisions. In addition we come to disdain speed limits because they don't seem to serve any purpose except for generating public revenue, even though they are often necessary and appropriate.

On a motorcycle, the machine itself encourages imprudent thinking about speed. It's easy to go fast on a sportbike. With its racing heritage and the technology it incorporates, speed is in its very DNA. And it's not just the horsepower. The machine's small size and effortless maneuverability make it possible to get beyond traffic to a place where the power can be used. The ease of speed is deceiving though, because it evolved on the track, not the street. On public roads thick with traffic, a sportbike has no significant safety advantage over a Harley or a Vespa.

Sportbike culture, too, fosters poor thinking about speed. Everyone speeds. If you don't speed, why do you have a sportbike? Rationalizations like these come up often. The fatal flaw (sometimes literally fatal) is a failure to acknowledge that safe speed depends entirely on the situation. Equating triple-digit speed on an empty road through farmland with miles of visibility to the same speed on an urban freeway or suburban thoroughfare reveals the pathological thinking about speed embedded in the culture.


What kinds of thinking about speed have you seen in your career as a motorcyclist?

How has your own thinking evolved?

How can ineffective modes of thinking be countered?
 

MrCrash

King of FAIL
When I started riding, I wanted to go fast.

When I started racing, I wanted to go faster than everyone else.

Now, it's more where I go, who I go with, as well as the "flow".

Sorta like music. The goal isn't to play the piece the fastest - it's to make it sound good :)
 

Zerox

Can I be....frank?
These debates are often interesting, because everyone is different. It's a touchy subject, hard to get the point across because lots of people hate being lectured. Even though they know the message is true.

For me it has been *incredibly* simple: take it to the track. Suppress the Go Fast Juices during the street rides, don't eliminate them, just save'em up. Then let'em out at the track. :thumbup

Because if you're gonna be constantly touching pavement and guardrails, you may as well get a job at CalTrans. :p
 

gixxerboy55

Well-known member
A little long but much better then your previous post Data Dan. I would say speed is a big problem for sportbike riders, not so much for cruisers, as alcohol seems to be a big problem with them. I remember a chp officer tell us at one of or meeting, that when your lane sharing, don't you just love that word, anyway if you can't glance down at your speedo when your sharing, then your going to fast.
 

MrCrash

King of FAIL
As far as discouraging ineffective modes of thinking goes, I think that's where mentors and positive role models play their part. People who can show new riders the ropes, promoting the idea that faster is not necessarily better, and that taking chances is not acceptable.

And if speed is the goal, they can show them the proper venue to pursue it.
 

Roadstergal

Sergeant Jackrum
Speed is entirely related to conditions. What's way too fast under some conditions is too slow under others.

Finding the right speed is part of good judgment - weighing the risks and rewards of going too quickly or too slowly (and a ticket is one of the lesser risks), given all aspects of the conditions - the type of road, the traffic, in what form people or animals might be on the road, what the traction will be like, etc.

(Part of the enjoyment of very tight, dirty/broken/gravelly twisties (motard roads, goat trails) is being able to push things a bit without going fast in an absolute sense.)
 

V4

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE
there's always going to be hazards on public roads...I just maintain a pace I'm comfortable with that leaves me a good safety cushion to take proper actions so I can keep control of the scenario...

edit: the hardest part wasn't learning how to ride...the challenge was putting aside my ego before it got me into trouble...
 
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Skidmarx

Don't Shoot!
A little long but much better then your previous post Data Dan.

What I find interesting about this discussion is how threatened some people are by the suggestion that their "skill" is not going to save them from an accident. I think that some of us have rationalized the risk of motorcycling away by telling ourselves that our skill is going to save us from serious injury or death. When DataDan titled his post "Skill is Overrated" he waved a red flag in the face of this rationalization.

Don't kill me here, but I've been curious about this for a while. What role does the motorcycle industry play in increasing motorcycle fatalities by promoting motorcycles that are built for one purpose...that of going extremely fast?

I just sold a GSXR750 because I couldn't ride it slowly. It just didn't feel right to putt-putt a bike like that around town or do the speed limit in Redwood Rd. The problem with that bike is that it's capacity for speed and handling greatly surpassed the road design and condition. To even scratch the surface of it's potential I would have to override my sight lines around blind corners and hope that no road hazards were in my way.

I'm not suggesting that bike manufacturers should produce slower bikes. As mentioned in a thread started by Rel a while back, maybe new riders shouldn't be steered in the direction of those bike until their experience and judgment have developed to the point that they can actually handle them?

You're always going to have people ride motorcycles fast. It's not just part of motorcycling culture, it is endemic to it. After all, who would want ride a slow motorcycle? And, who always rides a motorcycle slowly?

The question is how do people learn to judge what a safe speed is in a given situation? The way I learned was by crashing and realizing that I'm not invincible. I have pretty much learned to expect things to go wrong. If I'm going around a blind turn, I remind myself that a car could be flipping a U-turn 50 ft in front of me. If there is a straight stretch of road with shrubs on one side, before I crack the throttle wide open I assume that there is a deer waiting to jump out in front of me.

I didn't used to ride like this, but that's how I ride now. I can still easily exceed the speed limit and have a blast in the twisites, but I don't push my limits or the limits of my bike. I've learned that my bikes handling and my skills exceed the capacity of the roads I ride. Under ideal conditions I could take a turn at 50 mph, but how do I know that road conditions are ideal? How do I know there isn't diesel on the road, or gravel? I take the turn at 35 or 40 because at those speeds I have a better chance of reacting to those unexpected circumstances that are the norm.
 

gixxerboy55

Well-known member
What I find interesting about this discussion is how threatened some people are by the suggestion that their "skill" is not going to save them from an accident. I think that some of us have rationalized the risk of motorcycling away by telling ourselves that our skill is going to save us from serious injury or death. When DataDan titled his post "Skill is Overrated" he waved a red flag in the face of this rationalization.

Don't kill me here, but I've been curious about this for a while. What role does the motorcycle industry play in increasing motorcycle fatalities by promoting motorcycles that are built for one purpose...that of going extremely fast?

I just sold a GSXR750 because I couldn't ride it slowly. It just didn't feel right to putt-putt a bike like that around town or do the speed limit in Redwood Rd. The problem with that bike is that it's capacity for speed and handling greatly surpassed the road design and condition. To even scratch the surface of it's potential I would have to override my sight lines around blind corners and hope that no road hazards were in my way.

I'm not suggesting that bike manufacturers should produce slower bikes. As mentioned in a thread started by Rel a while back, maybe new riders shouldn't be steered in the direction of those bike until their experience and judgment have developed to the point that they can actually handle them?

You're always going to have people ride motorcycles fast. It's not just part of motorcycling culture, it is endemic to it. After all, who would want ride a slow motorcycle? And, who always rides a motorcycle slowly?

The question is how do people learn to judge what a safe speed is in a given situation? The way I learned was by crashing and realizing that I'm not invincible. I have pretty much learned to expect things to go wrong. If I'm going around a blind turn, I remind myself that a car could be flipping a U-turn 50 ft in front of me. If there is a straight stretch of road with shrubs on one side, before I crack the throttle wide open I assume that there is a deer waiting to jump out in front of me.

I didn't used to ride like this, but that's how I ride now. I can still easily exceed the speed limit and have a blast in the twisites, but I don't push my limits or the limits of my bike. I've learned that my bikes handling and my skills exceed the capacity of the roads I ride. Under ideal conditions I could take a turn at 50 mph, but how do I know that road conditions are ideal? How do I know there isn't diesel on the road, or gravel? I take the turn at 35 or 40 because at those speeds I have a better chance of reacting to those unexpected circumstances that are the norm.
Thanks for your little sermon there Mr joe saftey.
 

Ozymandias

Well-known member
The biggest problem I see is that ... well, DataDan might be able to fill in the void here better than I, but it seems to me that a largest percentage of the fatal crashes are by unlicensed drivers. There's really not a lot you can do about it when someone buys a bike and just starts riding. They already have issues if they don't bother to get legal before riding. There's not much you can do about it. I hate to sound pessimistic about it, but it's just one of those things. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

I will even admit, that when I was younger, if I hadn't already gotten it in my head that "I want my MC" (Indiana equivalent of the M1) if someone "preached" at me to get it, then I would have been all the more determined to say "screw you" and not get it. Those are exactly the kind of people you're trying to reach. How do you reach them when they cut your hand off? I mean, PLEASE, if you have an idea I'd love to bounce thoughts around but... I'm trying to be realistic about it too, ya know?

for the record, I've been known to tell people that I know aren't licensed to go home, they aren't riding with me/us. But that just ticks them off and makes them go out and try to prove themselves. The last time I said that to someone he ended up in the hospital for 3 months. I still feel kind of guilty about that. How do you work with something like that? That's an honest but yet, somewhat rhetorical question.
 
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flying_hun

Adverse Selection
PAY ATTENTION OR DIE!!!!

True. Yet, doesn't that fall into the category of necessary but not sufficient? One needs to know what to pay attention to, know what to do when you see a problem, have the the skill and the time to deal with the problem, etc.

What kinds of thinking about speed have you seen in your career as a motorcyclist?

How has your own thinking evolved?

How can ineffective modes of thinking be countered?

Dan, I don't know how to answer the first question. Are you asking about our own thinking, or the thinking of motorcyclists, the enthusiast press, moto culture, etc.?

As for my own thinking, I've always thought I was relatively quicker in on four wheels than two. There were years when I truly believed that I was the best auto driver there was. Period. Full stop. I drove on the street as though that were true. The only thing that cured me of that was going racing. My car racing career was relatively successful at the bush league level I raced, but getting spanked on the track served to moderate my delusional self-confidence without needlessly risking my life and the lives of others. In that regard, taking it to the track is exactly the right advice.

BTW, I never had that delusional level of self-confidence on two wheels.

My thinking on both two wheels and four has evolved based on seeing things go horribly wrong. It has been lucky for me that most of what I've observed has happened to others. Seeing bad consequences - and being willing to believe that I was not immune to the same - helped shape my view.

I think the best way to counter ineffective modes of thinking is to expose that thinking to failure. As we have seen, even catastrophic failure won't alter the behavior of every person, but that's to be expected. Track riding is one way to expose folks to failure, but I think that dirt riding may be a better classroom for this lesson. It's easier to trigger the conditions of failure (loss of control) in the dirt, and because the speeds are generally lower when it occurs, the consequences are generally less drastic.

The harder question is implementation. How do you get people to the dirt, and expose them to a little humility? MSF Dirt Bike school is not really set up to provide that particular lesson.
 

louemc

Well-known member
True. Yet, doesn't that fall into the category of necessary but not sufficient? One needs to know what to pay attention to, know what to do when you see a problem, have the the skill and the time to deal with the problem, etc.

My thinking on both two wheels and four has evolved based on seeing things go horribly wrong. It has been lucky for me that most of what I've observed has happened to others. Seeing bad consequences - and being willing to believe that I was not immune to the same - helped shape my view.

I think the best way to counter ineffective modes of thinking is to expose that thinking to failure. As we have seen, even catastrophic failure won't alter the behavior of every person, but that's to be expected. Track riding is one way to expose folks to failure, but I think that dirt riding may be a better classroom for this lesson. It's easier to trigger the conditions of failure (loss of control) in the dirt, and because the speeds are generally lower when it occurs, the consequences are generally less drastic.

The harder question is implementation. How do you get people to the dirt, and expose them to a little humility? MSF Dirt Bike school is not really set up to provide that particular lesson.


I like this line of thinking (and RoadsterGal always says it right).

It also must be the underlining futility in why Motorcycle riders are their own worst enemy. The roaring majority refuse to learn how to ride a bike, refuse to acknowlege there is a reason to learn (get your head right) to just ride on the public road.
When the brutal truth is, the public road is the highest risk, most dangerous place to ride, and that means the highest requirements for abilities and judgement of speed, speed differences, bike abilities, and the rider knowing everything there is to know about this.

I like what DataDan brings to the table :thumbup
 

GAJ

Well-known member
Well for me, when I first got my 750 in '86 and I blew a corner and ended up doing some unanticipated dirt riding (didn't go down thank goodness) it told me to get my ass to a track school which I did.

I think I attended 5 in about 3 years and that was the start of the "skill" part of the puzzle, but I continue to learn with every ride and realize, as Lou said, that there is no more challenging place to ride than on the street.

Luckily I never, as a younger man, rode with a bunch of riders where peer pressure or testosterone can turn things ugly very fast as riders try to show others just how great a rider they are. More experienced riders need to show maturity in these situations and try and prevent spontaneous street racing from breaking out.

I've always liked the ideas behind the "pace" which I believe Mitch Boehm first wrote about but is talked about here:

http://www.sportrider.com/ride/146_9306_motorcycle_pacing/index.html

Today I'm trying to concentrate on not outriding my vision (the "vanishing point" idea) and could care less if that means I might actually be taking corners slower than I used to.

I was also surprised 2 years ago just HOW MUCH FUN a little bike with a measly 35hp can be in the real world.

Especially the real world of roads that are in MUCH worse shape than when I rode that 750 back in 1986.

Riders today are presented with much more capable bikes, on paper, than back then, but a much more difficult riding environment.

This makes track schools and rational mentoring on the part of older riders much more important.

Of course, the newer rider must have an open mind and realize that even "experienced" riders are still learning...it never ends.
 

budman

General Menace
Staff member
Awesome post Dan.. and it does really carve into one of the big problems for the sportbike culture:

Here are a couple of good quotes in the thread so far:

skidmarks "The problem with that bike is that it's capacity for speed and handling greatly surpassed the road design and condition. To even scratch the surface of it's potential I would have to override my sight lines around blind corners and hope that no road hazards were in my way".

This is so true of our current generation of bikes and as aggressive humans we tend to want to explore the limits of our equipment. Understanding when is the right time is where experience and common sense come in. Obviously the track is the place to really test our machines. Controlled conditions really enhance our ability to use the most part of our brain to analyze what our machine is telling us. Keith Code's book that goes into how to spend your brain $$ wisely is an awesome take. Spending 50% of that $ on interpreting road conditions, unknown entities around the next corner and just knowing the road does not leave much to use as interpreting the feedback. The track takes away most of that 50% leaving you more brain power to analyze the feedback the machine is giving. Thus you are increasing your skill of understanding your machine and its limits.

Another from skidmarks: "The question is how do people learn to judge what a safe speed is in a given situation? The way I learned was by crashing and realizing that I'm not invincible. I have pretty much learned to expect things to go wrong. If I'm going around a blind turn, I remind myself that a car could be flipping a U-turn 50 ft in front of me. If there is a straight stretch of road with shrubs on one side, before I crack the throttle wide open I assume that there is a deer waiting to jump out in front of me."

Here is a good example of what experience can bring to a riders interpretation of the ride. A lot of new riders just don't think about the possibilities that are out there. Skidmarks has determined he needs to spend quite a bit of his $ brain power on the possibilities. BY doing so it does two things that are crucial to being a successful motorcyclist on the road.

1. The attention to the possible. Thinking about what could happened and being more ready to address the situation. Split seconds matter a ton on a bike. And being mentally prepared for the surprise can save just enough of those precious split seconds to react and avoid the problem.

2. It will slow you down. Listening to the inner voice of reason makes us take into account the price that might could be paid for the unknown. A new rider's inner voice may not be talking to them because they are so focused on the amount of brain $ they have to just control the bike. Slowing down and thinking about it can be tough to do.. this quote from V-4 is a good example why.

V4 wrote: "The hardest part wasn't learning how to ride...the challenge was putting aside my ego before it got me into trouble..."

I think that is so true for the aggressive human particularly when riding in groups. We have been in competition with one another since we were small and that becomes ingrained in who we are. The "if he can do it ~ I can do it" piece of our makeup can have serious consequences when it comes to riding.


Skidmarks wrote:
"maybe new riders shouldn't be steered in the direction of those bike until their experience and judgment have developed to the point that they can actually handle them?"

Oh hell yes... as an experience rider I see this being a number 1 priority. My generation did not have access to the hardware we have today and that kept us in check a bit by pure physics of what the machines were capable of. One of my goals with our High School visits is to get that new rider to a Ninja 250 rather than a Gixxer 600. (this being aimed at the kids who want to be on cool sportbikes).

Skills are more easily assimilated when at a lower speed on a lighter bike. Very few riders think of any ride as practice. We practice at the track.. we practice in a parking lot, but there is a lot of practice available on the street. Anticipation of others, learning that shadows can mean damp spots, knowing where oil is likely to be dropped.. etc.. etc.. mental practice of understanding our rides, our roads and what dumbasses may be sharing them with us.

Another good point from the other thread on skills -
Data Dan wrote: "When you improve your skills with training, reading, and practice, you can do what you want with them. If you'd like to be safer, you can use your new skills to reduce risk. If you're not real concerned about crashing--after all, "Bones heal, chicks dig scars, and the United States of America has the best doctor-to-daredevil ratio in the world"--you can apply your new skills to going faster with the same risk. Or, if you overestimate the skills you've acquired, you'll actually increase risk without knowing it."

This is a dangerous fact. We have seen it over and over on this board where very experienced skillful riders end up stacking themselves and getting seriously hurt. Sometimes multiple times. I don't think they were thinking that bones heal quick, chicks dig scars.. etc.. I think they thought that they have the skills to avoid most bad situations.. and they do!... the problem is most is not all and it only takes one incident where skill will not help no matter what to end up in a bad situation.

Motardjunkie wrote from the other thread:
SKILLED RIDERS do NOT ride like dumbasses on the road .....crashing multiple times....while DUI ....etc etc etc..... SKILLED RIDERS.....RIDE SKILLFULLY...not like retards.

I have to object.. per my above statement. Many skilled riders do ride like dumbasses on the road. I have had my moments be a dumbass and luckily won my bet... the problem is.. it is a bet. Skill increases your chances of winning the bet.. but still a bet.

MRCrash wrote:
"If someone wins an AFM championship, it's safe to say the rider is skilled. If that same someone wheelies into a parked car while riding under the influence, I don't think the rider is any less skilled - that's just bad judgment."

A perfect example of a tragedy in judgment.. I remember this well and it was a real deal. :rose
Skill cannot overcome bad judgment all of the time.. key word ALL.


Here is another good take:

Roadergirl wrote: "Speed is entirely related to conditions. What's way too fast under some conditions is too slow under others.

Finding the right speed is part of good judgment - weighing the risks and rewards of going too quickly or too slowly (and a ticket is one of the lesser risks), given all aspects of the conditions - the type of road, the traffic, in what form people or animals might be on the road, what the traction will be like, etc.

(Part of the enjoyment of very tight, dirty/broken/gravelly twisties (motard roads, goat trails) is being able to push things a bit without going fast in an absolute sense.)"

For most of us a ticket is just a hassle.. and cost us money. The real penalty is crashing and getting hurt. Good judgment does keep you out of both types of penalties most of the time. Again "Most" is a key word here. All of the time is "unobtainable" by a motorcyclist.

Now the last part of her quote about motard roads, and goat trails.. these are the very roads where practice can be had without the advanced risks of the well travelled roads. A Ninja 250 can be a bunch of fun on these roads where the Gixxer 600 is more of a task to ride. Sure they are still good practice on the bigger bike, but the smaller machine again allows more focus on the other items that are important to developing the skills that two wheels demand. And for me these roads on the right bike offer just as many smiles per mile as the sweeping pavement that the GSXR 750 loves to gobble up.

For me this is where I choose to play with my skill set and judgment. In an environment where things are slower.. still very challenging and where you find fewer cages.. and fewer chances for one of those things that you can avoid "most" of the time. I get more smiles per mile on these types of roads.

Flying_hun wrote:
"My thinking on both two wheels and four has evolved based on seeing things go horribly wrong. It has been lucky for me that most of what I've observed has happened to others. Seeing bad consequences - and being willing to believe that I was not immune to the same - helped shape my view."

I feel that barf has become one very good tool in exposing the things that go horribly wrong. When I was young the only thing we had was personal experience.. actually seeing it up on the hill or just a newspaper article that had no real articulation on the event that you could grasp some knowledge from.

Flying_hun also wrote:
"I think the best way to counter ineffective modes of thinking is to expose that thinking to failure. As we have seen, even catastrophic failure won't alter the behavior of every person, but that's to be expected. Track riding is one way to expose folks to failure, but I think that dirt riding may be a better classroom for this lesson. It's easier to trigger the conditions of failure (loss of control) in the dirt, and because the speeds are generally lower when it occurs, the consequences are generally less drastic."

This again reinforces my feeling that barf does help in exposing judgment, skills and the failure that still occurs. If we can, as an individual grasp something from others we are lucky. Now his dirt bike take is awesome.. so true. If I could do one thing for my fellow motorcyclist who are fairly new it would be to put them on a dirt bike for a year or five...dirt bikes offer opportunities to learn the innate skills that we need to make our reactions more automated. The muscles memory of how to counter balance or when to give it gas.. when not to hit the brakes.. all of that stuff can be learned much more effectively in the dirt. Those skills.. when they become automated can sure go a long way to helping us react the right way when we face a surprise situation. Those situations demand split second decisions and if your body starts the right reaction immediately without having to "think" about what to do.. you are so much better off.

If I keep going no one will read my post..:laughing

So I will finish with a little teach vs. preach note.

A wise man told me one day that the only way to educate is to lead by example and to give others information when wanted.. a student is one who wishes to be educated and a teacher is one who wishes to teach.

If you want to educate without having students it is called preaching... and preaching only works because you have followers who are willing to believe. If they don't believe your words are wasted.

I am a firm believer than you cannot educate those who don't want it and creative insults when in preach mode do nothing to help that person learn a damn thing. Rather they will rise up and resist..whether the info is good or not. We see that a lot on barf.. so if in preach mode.. choose your words wisely.. if so.. one may believe.

:smoking
 

brichter

Spun out freakshow
Awesome post Dan.. and it does really carve into one of the big problems for the sportbike culture:

Here are a couple of good quotes in the thread so far:

...


Another from skidmarks: ...



V4 wrote: ...


Skidmarks wrote:
...







MRCrash wrote:
...


Here is another good take:

...

Flying_hun wrote:

...


Flying_hun also wrote:
...


If I keep going no one will read my post..:laughing

...


:smoking



Tl;dr. :x













:twofinger :rofl :rofl :rofl



Good post, Dennis! :thumbup



:2cents : Too much speed in the wrong situation will kill you quick, and on the street that situation can change from minute to minute. It took me a few years and injuries to learn this lesson. There's just too many variables to possibly account for, where 80 might have been ok for the conditions that existed 5 minutes prior, 50 can be way too fast for the next pass.
 
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