Good Speed / Bad Speed

[GAJ]

In the recent thread Skill is Overrated I wondered what, if anything, the motorcycling community can do to promote good riding judgment.

Well Dan, if you look at the interest both of your recent thoughtful threads have attracted, compared to something like... "I messed with someone's bike, am I retarded?"...unfortunately it seems too much like WORK for some to discuss how to reduce the potential for a crash, or worse. In fact in the other thread a lot of the posts were way off base, and were bashing you, because they simply did not take the time to read, and analyze your post properly.

Keep trying to provoke thought on this subject, because if even one person "gets it" that didn't before, it is worth it and may help, possibly, cut down a tiny bit on the RIP and Crash threads we all hate to see.

Keep up the good work man. :thumbup

BTW, if someone wants to know what "it" is they should read every post in this thread to get some idea...they're all remarkably similar, and, of course, they should ask questions.

Again, great job DD.

 

[Skidmarx]

Well Dan, if you look at the interest both of your recent thoughtful threads have attracted, compared to something like... "I messed with someone's bike, am I retarded?"...unfortunately it seems too much like WORK for some to discuss how to reduce the potential for a crash, or worse. In fact in the other thread a lot of the posts were way off base, and were bashing you, because they simply did not take the time to read, and analyze your post properly.

I think there is something else going on here. People don't want to talk/think about this stuff. If you honestly analyze the dangers of road riding you might come to the conclusion that the way you've been riding is not wise. Some people don't want to be confronted by that fact and would prefer to live in denial. They get defensive and seem to attack the author of the post, when in reality they are afraid of hearing the message because it makes so much sense.

I don't mean to blame anybody or sound superior. It's just a fact. It's what people do. I'm sure I do it to, maybe just not so much on this issue because I know that my life is at stake. If I want to live, I can't afford to live in denial on this issue.

Nevertheless, I think it's really vital to have these conversations. At least 500 people have read some portion of this thread. I'm so glad that I've found this forum and this community of riders. BARF is a relatively new phenomenon (in the history of motorcycling). I hope, that in time, BARF will not only serve as a source of personal expression, humor, social awareness and technical help, but will be a major resource directed at education a new generation of rider.

The interwebz is the future. When my kids (now 6 and 5) and want to start riding, they're not going to give a shit what I say because I'm dad. But maybe they'll be able to learn how to approach motorcycling, at least in part, from learning on forums like BARF.

BARF is a powerhouse and I feel fortunate be able to read DataDan's posts...as well as everyone else's posts.

Talking about deflating someone's tire is funny (possibly). Thinking about the life threatening risks one takes in the name of fun is not. We need a place that we can do both. BARF is that place!

 

[DataDan]

Positive Modes of Thinking About Speed

Many motorcycle crashes--and especially sportbike crashes--are caused by excessive speed. Yet some riders often see big numbers on the speedo and manage to stay out of trouble. So what's the difference between those who crash and those who get home safely? Is it just luck, or do the ones who stay healthy year after year know something about speed that the crashers don't?

Not to discount the value of luck, but riding fast safely is an art that requires an understanding of speed developed through experience and supported by a sense of human fallibility. Those who ride fast but seldom crash have learned how to use the motorcycle's capabilities, but they have also learned about the limitations of the machine, themselves, and other motorists. These insights enable them to think about speed in ways that help them survive. Different riders think in different ways, of course, but here are three examples that illustrate how some riders approach the problems posed by speed on a motorcycle.

Braking Distance

A very basic problem that speed introduces is increased stopping distance. And not just a little. Stopping distance quadruples when speed doubles. For example, assume that it takes one second to recognize a hazard, move your hand from the throttle to the brake, and begin to squeeze the lever. Assume too that you can brake well enough to meet a typical motorcop standard (not MotoGP braking, but easily good enough for a top MSF score). If you can do that, at 60mph you'll cover 250 feet before coming to a complete stop. But from 120mph you'll cover 820 feet--nearly three football fields for a full stop. And that's a best-case estimate. It gets worse on a dodgy surface or if you hesitate because you think that black cow in the road is really just an odd shadow cast by roadside shrubbery.

You can--and should--cultivate an understanding of braking distances by following Nick Ienatsch's advice in Sport Riding Techniques: "If you ride at 100mph, practice stopping from 100mph." Or, to put it another way, if you don't practice braking from 100, you shouldn't be riding 100. There is, of course, only one place to practice braking at that speed: the racetrack.

Cornering

Just as greater straight-line speed increases braking distance, greater cornering speed increases the demand for grip and lean angle. And again the relationship isn't a simple one: doubling turn speed quadruples the grip requirement. But that's not necessarily the most severe demand imposed by faster cornering. The limiting factor for getting a motorcycle around a bend may not be between the rubber and the road, but between the rider's ears.

To go faster around a turn, a rider must also speed up his thoughts and actions. Twice as fast = half the time available for thinking and control inputs. Consider a turn where, at 30mph, you have 3 seconds to locate a turn-in point, adjust entry speed, locate a steering target, make the steering input, and get back on the gas. At 60mph, the same actions must be completed in 1.5 seconds. What's more, greater precision is required at higher speed. At 30mph, straying 6 feet from your planned line or making a harsh throttle input may be errors the motorcycle can soak up. But the same mistake at 60 could put you into the weeds.

Faster cornering is a goal that many sport riders pursue. But those who get home safely think about cornering speed as a demand on both machine and rider. And they understand that latter is often the limiting factor.

The Tempo of Traffic

The pace of events in traffic is governed by roads, vehicles, and drivers. In an urban area dense with cross-streets and parking, traffic moves slowly because entering and exiting vehicles interfere with the main flow. A truck takes time to complete a left turn because it's big and accelerates slowly. And at a freeway merge, "friction" generated by drivers accommodating--or not accommodating--entering vehicles slows traffic down.

Failure of a motorcyclist to recognize speed limitations inherent in the traffic environment can result in crashes such as these:

• A motorcycle pops into the view of an oncoming motorist after the bike crests a hill. But the driver has already begun a left turn, and the motorcycle is going too fast to stop.
  
  
• The sightline between a motorcycle and an oncoming motorist is clear, but the bike is beyond the driver's "decision horizon"--the distance at which he considers vehicles to be a threat in this familiar location--and he begins his turn. However, the driver misjudged the motorcycle's speed, and because it was going twice as fast as normal traffic in this location, the two collide.
  
  
• On a freeway, a driver in the #2 lane sees a slower vehicle ahead and decides to move into the #1. Like most motorists, he glances in his mirror for no more than a second or two, and when he doesn't see anything, proceeds with his lane change. But he failed to see a motorcycle approaching in the #1 at 25mph faster than the flow of traffic. Because of its speed, the motorcycle was visible in the limited field covered by the car's mirror for only a short time, and the driver never saw it. The car cuts off the motorcycle, and it goes down.

A rider who wants to get home safely must consider the tempo of traffic. He may be able to make good time, but he is always in synchrony with the environment. When you're on their turf, you must adapt to survive.


These are a few possible alternatives to the pathological thinking about speed described in my first post. Rather than thinking in terms of speed limits, the speed the motorcycle is capable of attaining, or misperceptions propagated within the sportbike culture, look for limitations suggested by real-world experience. Of which we have seen far too many examples recently.


What modes of thinking have you found that help you recognize the danger that can accompany speed?

What modes help you recognize when speed is not particularly dangerous and visiting the upper half of the speedo dial won't do any harm?

Has it been experience alone that taught you to make the distinction, or have there been instructors, peers, books, magazines, or forums that influenced you?

 

[corrupt]

I asked a safety related question on here once, and I thought the answers were pretty interesting. There were basically three different answer to why they were doing something that I thought wasn't worth the reward and excessively risky. Two or three said I was silly for asking and the rest either said "because we can", or "sometimes I feel like a nut", followed by the rest who said it was Darwin in action, etc.

Most were valid answers I thought, but it seemed like even the people that realized it was kinda needless, seemed more than willing to play the odds. The fact is that until you see or experience something that strikes home, you will continue on doing it. This is evident in people who suddenly stop riding after an accident. They ended up risking way more than they ever would have thought about, if they ever thought about the risk in the first place.

Do you think that for some people, the ideas of riding a motorcycle and speeding are inseparable? It sure would explain a lot about some people's behavior. Maybe some of the people who abruptly stop riding are the smart people who realize they can not separate the two, and it is for their own safety.

I think there are ways of enjoying the speeds of motorcycles without putting yourself in excessive risk, for sure. I do this by learning as many of the risks as possible on the roads that I ride. If I have that desire to speed, I am able to negotiate the risks a little bit better, because I have thought more about them. Out on the tighter country roads that I like to frequent, there can be deer, driveways, blind corners, unsafe road conditions of all sorts. I typically know section by section what I should be looking out more for. No, you're not ever going to "know" a road well enough to be 100% safe.

If we can agree that one of the main reasons for slowing down is to accommodate for unknown road conditions, we can assume that knowing the features of the road as best as possible is very valuable as well.

What does "knowing the road" mean to different people? It could mean that they know there is gravel in certain turns and how to maneuver around it, so that they can GO AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. This group of riders will gather just enough info about the road so that they can then focus on making their perfect lines at top speed. What happens when something pops up that wasn't accounted for before they stopped learning about the road? Big crash.

Some people don't speed because they have no desire to push the limit. Other don't speed any more because bad things have happened to them or others that they don't feel is worth risking any more (because of age, family, whatever), or hadn't thought about seriously. They are able to have tons of fun in these capacities and stay alive! Good job.

Other people familiarize themselves with roads to the point where not only do they know about the gravel, and other things that are slowing them down, but they also know about things that may kill them, like all the driveways, or blind road crests, etc. Some even know about which driveways are blind, and which you can see a car backing out on to the road from, and how much time it'd be till they got on the road. Some of these riders have managed to ride with a minimum of injuries because they are VERY cautious and are VERY good at weighing fun and risk. They are able to have tons of fun in these capacities and stay alive! Good job.

...And just because you ride on a road or a city street every day, doesn't mean that you're automatically the master of that street. I dunno if that often parroted stat about most auto accident happening close to home is really true or not, but it sure sounds like it is. Complacency is a bitch... and that doesn't just mean being lazy about looking over your shoulder one day, we should be learning as much as possible about the roads that we frequent, instead of just being a zombie.

The fact is though that most riders don't ride one way or the other, just more so one way than the other, and we still make bets against the pavement, usually without even knowing it. We are constantly learning.

So to your question about weighing the risk about when to speed or not to (and getting away with it), I ask you another question: how do you increase someone's knowledge about potential threats to their life? Judgment is a very hard thing to teach, it's not something you can just learn from someone by telling you something. When you try to do that, you just get a bunch of "what if..." questions. This is why rules are important! You can't "teach" judgment to people, they just ask you "what if" questions to death, and then you just have to come up with these one sentence rules, or "rules of thumb" like some people like to call them.

One sentence rules are great! Someone on here posted something like: "a cop told me that if you're not comfortable glancing at your speed while you're splitting, you're splitting too fast" Anyway, my point is that judgment is very hard to teach without hands on application (dirt riding).

How do you convince someone that they just don't have the mental and physical connection to negotiate a certain turn at 50 mph and then to negotiate an unknown road hazard around the other side, when another person can? I don't think you can, without letting them fall first. EVERYONE has a different level of spatial aptitude, but no one wants to believe they are a crappy rider/driver. Dirt riding would reveal to many how uncool and grabby they are on a motorcycle.

Yeah, dirt riding is really a great idea. You can spew scenario after scenario at people, but we usually retain a learned experience better, like riding and falling on dirt. PAIN RETAINS! (one of my USMC boot camp mottoes we chanted while we were getting slaughtered: "pain!...retains! pain!...retains! ....")

So I basically just came back around to dirt riding, haha.

Ok, I'm done my late night BARF brain dump.

Pain retains!

 

[canyonrat]

What does "knowing the road" mean to different people?...

Other people familiarize themselves with roads to the point where not only do they know about the gravel, and other things that are slowing them down, but they also know about things that may kill them, like all the driveways, or blind road crests, etc. Some even know about which driveways are blind, and which you can see a car backing out on to the road from, and how much time it'd be till they got on the road. Some of these riders have managed to ride with a minimum of injuries because they are VERY cautious and are VERY good at weighing fun and risk. They are able to have tons of fun in these capacities and stay alive! Good job...

Well put. :ride

 

[GAJ]

Something I learned from somewhere, (traffic school? maybe it was Bob Bondurant), stuck in my mind when talking about riding near other vehicles.

It is not the absolute speed that is the main problem, but the speed differential factor that can put you in danger.

As to "safe to speed"? Vision is the key, tons of vision.

The closer the "vanishing point" is, (the place where you can't see what is ahead), the slower you MUST go.

I also have give blind turns lots of respect, (slow entry, late apex), but I give blind rights the utmost respect due to less vision.

I also avoid the herd mentality I saw twice yesterday in 3 bike packs.

In the first case, around noon 3 bikes were headed north on 19 to the GG Bridge.

The lead motard, with 2 SS's behind, just HAD to pop that wheelie.

Had I been rider number 3 I'd have peeled off.

Another was headed to Marshall on Hick's. Blind right in the cage...lead bike is on the centerline headed toward me, the two following are close and the third is obviously VERY tentative.

Blind leading the blind.

 

[budman]

Vision.. yes! Our first line of defense. At least as far as the brain see's it..

Vision is our most powerful tool to keep us on two. My eyes are moving like crazy when I ride and at site of a potential anything that makes the brain analyze the input. If you don't see it.. you cannot really analyze it..

That is certainly scued on the race track where you minds eye knows what is coming around the bend or over the hill and you can use that to increase speed. Still the unforseen can bite.. On the street you may know the road.. but you sure don't know if Joe the plumbers truck just broke down.. or lost a load.. or whatever just around the corner.

I would love to see how stupid I look on a good ride in the hills or around town.. I mean a close up of how my eyes work.. left/right.. far /near.. quick focus..left again/right again.... etc.. probably look like I have a severe mental issue. :teeth

Well actually I do.. I am using what I got to make the best of what I am doing.
Riding smart is mostly mental. The understanding of your skill set.. your bike.. the road.. the others on it.. all related to your vision.

Taking Keith Code'as advance class years ago.. almost two decades now.. :wow I learned that Keith was a huge proponent of using your vision in multiple ways..

1. To see what you are looking at.
2. To see beyond what you are looking at..
3. To take note of things you may be seeing, but not focused on.. as in other racers.

I use this thought to teach my kids how to drive.. to be aware of all that may be in your visual field rather than the point you are focused on. It is amazing how much you can pick up without ever really staring at it.. if you "think" about it.

Eye Eye!

:smoking

 

[flying_hun]

What modes of thinking have you found that help you recognize the danger that can accompany speed?

What modes help you recognize when speed is not particularly dangerous and visiting the upper half of the speedo dial won't do any harm?

Has it been experience alone that taught you to make the distinction, or have there been instructors, peers, books, magazines, or forums that influenced you?

Dan, one factor that comes to mind in responding to your questions is the notion of "variables". Wasn't it Deming who said something like, "Uncontrolled variability is the enemy of quality"? It's the same with riding fast. Just how many variables are out there? How many of them are outside the rider's control? How many of them can the rider respond to effectively (translated as doing the right thing when the shit hits the fan)? How many variables might be out there because there is no basis upon which those variables can be eliminated?

I pay attention to variables (e.g. driveways, vehicles, animals, etc.), and how many of them I can eliminate from consideration based upon what falls within my view. Just because I can't see something does not mean it's not there. I must be able to see that it's not there. When I ride - especially the unfamiliar roads I so enjoy - I'm gathering visual cues all the time - from the road, the trees or other features near the road, other riders, and so on, and using that information to inform the action of my right wrist. Sometimes, like out in Nevada, I can see enough to eliminate variables from consideration, and be more enthusiastic. Other times, to paraphrase Rumsfeld, there are too many unknown unknowns, and I moderate my enthusiasm with the throttle. Interestingly, the sensation of speed is similar in both instances because of the differences in circumstances.

Over the years I have read and continue to read material aimed at making us better riders, and I continue to seek instruction for that purpose. Yet, there was one thing I read a long time ago that suggested that when riding in traffic that one should constantly scenario plan. What if that car changes lanes? What if that idiot pulls out/turns left in front of me? What if there's a pick up truck coming around that corner in my lane? Yada-yada. It has a fairly profound impact on how fast I'm willing to go in a given circumstance by forcing me to consider those variables.

Do you think that for some people, the ideas of riding a motorcycle and speeding are inseparable?


What does "knowing the road" mean to different people? It could mean that they know there is gravel in certain turns and how to maneuver around it, so that they can GO AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. This group of riders will gather just enough info about the road so that they can then focus on making their perfect lines at top speed. What happens when something pops up that wasn't accounted for before they stopped learning about the road? Big crash.

In answer to your question, I ride a motorcycle - in part - for the sensation of speed. That does not always mean "speeding", but it can. That thought is often moderated by the question that is generally in my head, "How big a ticket am I willing to get for this?" That usually translates into straight line speeds that are not all that high, and getting a buzz from cornering. For instance, we rode Hopland Grade yesterday, and it's possible to get a great sensation of speed there without substantially violating the posted limit. That kind of comes back around to "The Pace".

As to the "knowing the road" approach; that seems over rated. Knowing the road still leaves open the possibility of uncontrolled variables entering the equation without your knowledge. Even race tracks use flaggers to warn users of just such an occurrence. Last time I checked, Hwy 9/Skaggs/Redwood/Hwy 121/ etc. didn't have flag crews. Knowing the road buys you something, but it doesn't save you from everything. Frequently the remaining risks are the ones that are the worst.

I've never thought much of the concept of "practicing" a road as much as "practicing" skills, including emergency bike handling and habits of mind. Maybe I'm just too ADD, hence I prefer the new sensation of unfamiliar roads as my favored path towards the sensation of speed.

 

[ThermalStone]

What kinds of thinking about speed have you seen in your career as a motorcyclist?

How has your own thinking evolved?

How can ineffective modes of thinking be countered?

1. I assume you mean my own thinking. I used to think that I was faster than 90% of riders out there on the street and I rode like that most of the time. I was (and still am) faster than most riders on the street, but I wasn't as safe. I knew how to go fast but my skill set was still incomplete and I could have been safer. I could get into trouble but not necessarily get myself out.

2. I had a serious solo accident on a Daytona 955i where I couldn't figure out what happened to me. While recuperating, I read some articles and realized that I could have saved myself (and probably gone even faster) if I had simply weighted the outside peg when my rear wheel began to slide. At this point I had already done four or five track days, some with formal instruction, and moved up to B group, yet no one had ever told me this or noticed the flaw in my technique. It reminded me that I didn't know everything and that I had to ride within the limits of my skill.

3. Broken bones do wonders for countering ineffective modes of thinking. I also started getting slower bikes. It's more fun to be fast on a slow bike than slow on a fast bike. I also realized that in street riding you need to leave something in the tank. If you're already riding at 100% of your effort and skill and a crisis happens, you have nothing left to save yourself.

 

[DataDan]

Thanks for all the responses. Lots of good ideas.

To review: What I’m trying to do in this thread is sketch out a strategy for managing speed that distinguishes between Good Speed and Bad Speed. That is, one that identifies a sharp line between good clean fun and potentially deadly excess. Short of finding a way to instill good judgment, a strategy that can be employed by following a few simple rules is the most we can hope to accomplish.

We started by discussing pathological ideas about speed that are prevalent in the sportbike community and contribute to senseless carnage. We then moved on to key elements in the thinking of those who exercise good riding judgment. It is the good ideas that will lead us to a good strategy. Here are some that have been discussed:

• Vision. The length and width of a rider’s field of vision determine what he can know about the immediate environment.
  
  
• Knowns and unknowns. You have to take into account both the dangers you can see and the possibility of ones you can’t see.
  
  
• Attention. On the street, much of your mental capacity must be allocated to the riding environment rather than control of the motorcycle.
  
  
• Local knowledge. Knowing where hazards are helps you allocate your attention. And it enables you to eliminate objects that would occupy your attention if you were unfamiliar with the area.
  
  
• What-ifs. Consider the contingencies.

The forum seems top-heavy with contemplative and philosophical discussions right now, so I think this thread should be set aside for a few days. But here are some speed management strategy elements to think about:

• The Safe Stopping Distance Rule. Maintain speed that allows you to come to a stop in the distance you can see to be clear.
  
  
• Transit vs. Combat mode. An explicit distinction between riding modes that requires you to decide when your full attention is needed just to manage ambient risk, and when you can add discretionary risk in exchange for fun.
  
  
• The Vanishing Point. As a cornering strategy (see this 1Rider thread).
  
  
• The Pace. Some people who recommend Nick Ienatsch’s sport riding protocol don’t seem to understand it. It’s not about riding slow. It’s about maximizing camaraderie and fun--"getting a buzz from cornering" as flying_hun put it--while minimizing risk. See the 1Rider sticky on The Pace.
  
  
• Synchrony. Recognizing the tempo of traffic and riding with it, not against it.

 

[Roadstergal]

[*]Knowns and unknowns. You have to take into account both the dangers you can see and the possibility of ones you can’t see.

"As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say, we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know."

 

[budman]

This is a great discussion and I thought I would answer a couple of Dan's questions directly sooooo...

Originally Posted by DataDan:

What kinds of thinking about speed have you seen in your career as a motorcyclist?

I have thought about a lot of different types of speed. Early on.. it was wow.. I am going faster than I ever could on a bicycle. (OK that was at 9 years old) That morphed into how fast should I hit this jump.. this corner.. etc.. all taking into account traction and my own fear (skill) level.

That changed a bit more as my experience grew.. still dirt biking it became an awareness of different soil conditions. Different corner conditions as in ruts or berms available to aid or inhibit my turn.

Then onto the street where my thoughts were more about where I stood as far as the posted speed limits.. and how fast does this bike go?? Learned some differences about riding two up and how that affected the machine response to my input.

A t bone of a trailer at 16 was the first time I really started to think about site lines.. hit it coming over a blind hill.. no chance to miss that big steel sidewall.

I went back to dirt bikes and did my damndest to build up my skill set.. and as a racer my mind set.
I attended the Official Suzuki School of Moto-X and the Jim Weinart School as well. I really increased my skill of understanding what speed was applied to any application. The clearing of a double jump and proper amount of throttle when leaving the take off became one of the bigger important understanding of the speed.. because once in the air.. you don't have to many options.. and it hurt like hell to come up short. Learning to navigate extreme down hills and whoops with body positions and throttle control also really figured into a successful race. PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE was a key.. and I did!

Moving to road racing I again had to reset my understanding of speed and also get my brain up to speed on interpreting it on a very important level. Just like the double jump.. it meant there was a price to pay if not right. I also had to learn that tires have limits.. and those limits are based on several different things.. throttle control, wear, track temperature and speed.. all wrap together in the pursuit of speed.. or really going fast. The competitive environment also meant.. pushing that. I knew if that guy could do it.. I could too.. I just needed to learn how the above played into it.. what a physically brain tasking sport this is when competition and the desire to win are involved.

Now an application for the road.

I had learned that sight lines were important.. duh! Ouch.
I knew that tires and bikes really could be pushed to the limits on the track.. and I knew that the road did not allow the focus to do that.. and the price to be paid for being wrong was even more severe. Not riding on the street while I raced in the 80's did not allow me to build up my street smarts too much.. but I still picked up things even if in a truck. What people did and the reactions to different situation of such was still being learned.

I knew.. race speeds were bad on the road and found that I could pretty easily contain the beast inside, because it was not like the race track and no matter how hard it tried I was not going to be able to match those speeds and live.

How has your own thinking evolved?

I think that I have explained some of that above.. but we will take it to another level.
I know my street smarts skill set is way improved over my early years. I know what to look out for.. to find people's eyes in mirrors, to expect different road conditions during different seasons, driveways, dogs, deer, etc.. they all get thought about.

Example:
My ride this last weekend included a cruise up my selected route and taking mental notes on road conditions coming the other way.. dirt, gravel, damp spots and bicyclist, all logged in for a more spirited ride back. It worked like a charm. I was able to pick up my pace and be in control of the conditions because I knew what to expect as far as the road. I applied my site lines, my anticipation of others etc..

How can ineffective modes of thinking be countered?

This is tough.. I think they have to be countered by either fear of injury or with experience/training.
Fear will slow you down.. and experience or training will too.. in specific conditions. They may actually allow you to speed up, but that has to be held up against the other street smart skills to really allow for the safest ride possible.

Getting better at going fast is not the answer on the street.. at least not unto itself. It is a delicate balance of all skills both physical and mental that allows a rider a better shot at knowing when it is good speed or bad speed.

:smoking

 

[codger]

Another factor at least for me is the character of the motorcycle I currently own a 2007 hayabusa prior to that i had a 2006 gsxr 1000 these bikes are very similar in power output and torque the 1000 being a bit more nimble and lighter but quite similar the 1000 was difficult to ride slowly in urban enviornments say 25 to 50 mph while the hayabusa will happily ride around all day at low speeds. I dont know about others but I tend to ride a bike in its zone the 1000 was hard to keep reined in thats the main reason i parted with the bike as much as i liked it. I havent ridden a 600 sport bike but i suspect they arent happy unlesss ridden in a more agressive manner. I also own a 2003 fz1000 and find on the open highway I frequently find myself doing the speed limit where the reverse is true when riding the hayabusa it appears to be bored at 90mph and is hard to keep below 90mph. I have to agree that most od the cruiser crashes I hear about are alcohol related even with the shall we say forgiving manners of a cruiser compared to a sport bike as reponsive as a modern sport bike is I cant imagine riding one under the influence that would probably amount to suicide. great thread here.

 

[GAJ]

This is a great discussion and I thought I would answer a couple of Dan's questions directly sooooo...

Originally Posted by DataDan:

What kinds of thinking about speed have you seen in your career as a motorcyclist?

I have thought about a lot of different types of speed. Early on.. it was wow.. I am going faster than I ever could on a bicycle. (OK that was at 9 years old) That morphed into how fast should I hit this jump.. this corner.. etc.. all taking into account traction and my own fear (skill) level.

That changed a bit more as my experience grew.. still dirt biking it became an awareness of different soil conditions. Different corner conditions as in ruts or berms available to aid or inhibit my turn.

Then onto the street where my thoughts were more about where I stood as far as the posted speed limits.. and how fast does this bike go?? Learned some differences about riding two up and how that affected the machine response to my input.

A t bone of a trailer at 16 was the first time I really started to think about site lines.. hit it coming over a blind hill.. no chance to miss that big steel sidewall.

I went back to dirt bikes and did my damndest to build up my skill set.. and as a racer my mind set.
I attended the Official Suzuki School of Moto-X and the Jim Weinart School as well. I really increased my skill of understanding what speed was applied to any application. The clearing of a double jump and proper amount of throttle when leaving the take off became one of the bigger important understanding of the speed.. because once in the air.. you don't have to many options.. and it hurt like hell to come up short. Learning to navigate extreme down hills and whoops with body positions and throttle control also really figured into a successful race. PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE was a key.. and I did!

Moving to road racing I again had to reset my understanding of speed and also get my brain up to speed on interpreting it on a very important level. Just like the double jump.. it meant there was a price to pay if not right. I also had to learn that tires have limits.. and those limits are based on several different things.. throttle control, wear, track temperature and speed.. all wrap together in the pursuit of speed.. or really going fast. The competitive environment also meant.. pushing that. I knew if that guy could do it.. I could too.. I just needed to learn how the above played into it.. what a physically brain tasking sport this is when competition and the desire to win are involved.

Now an application for the road.

I had learned that sight lines were important.. duh! Ouch.
I knew that tires and bikes really could be pushed to the limits on the track.. and I knew that the road did not allow the focus to do that.. and the price to be paid for being wrong was even more severe. Not riding on the street while I raced in the 80's did not allow me to build up my street smarts too much.. but I still picked up things even if in a truck. What people did and the reactions to different situation of such was still being learned.

I knew.. race speeds were bad on the road and found that I could pretty easily contain the beast inside, because it was not like the race track and no matter how hard it tried I was not going to be able to match those speeds and live.

How has your own thinking evolved?

I think that I have explained some of that above.. but we will take it to another level.
I know my street smarts skill set is way improved over my early years. I know what to look out for.. to find people's eyes in mirrors, to expect different road conditions during different seasons, driveways, dogs, deer, etc.. they all get thought about.

Example:
My ride this last weekend included a cruise up my selected route and taking mental notes on road conditions coming the other way.. dirt, gravel, damp spots and bicyclist, all logged in for a more spirited ride back. It worked like a charm. I was able to pick up my pace and be in control of the conditions because I knew what to expect as far as the road. I applied my site lines, my anticipation of others etc..

How can ineffective modes of thinking be countered?

This is tough.. I think they have to be countered by either fear of injury or with experience/training.
Fear will slow you down.. and experience or training will too.. in specific conditions. They may actually allow you to speed up, but that has to be held up against the other street smart skills to really allow for the safest ride possible.

Getting better at going fast is not the answer on the street.. at least not unto itself. It is a delicate balance of all skills both physical and mental that allows a rider a better shot at knowing when it is good speed or bad speed.

:smoking

A truly awesome post.

Right on the money IMO.

This is a tremendous thread I hope newer riders are willing to wade through...it could literally save your life if you internalize some of the advice here. :thumbup

 

[budman]

Thanks for your little sermon there Mr joe saftey.

Gixxerboy... please don't take it as a sermon... rather as a person sharing their knowledge for the good of others.. if you want to call that a sermon.. then Halleluyeah.. however you spell it..:teeth

If it enlightens 1Rider then it was a good one...:thumbup

I think this thread is one of the most stunning we have had this year on the subject of understanding what the reality of the road brings.. and I totally agree with GAJ, I hope many newer riders read it and those veterans re-kindle the thought of the ride..

Lessons to be learned.. really..

Sermon over.

:smoking

 

[Carlo]

Dan, I'm coming a bit late to the party, but to answer your question; there are very few times these days when I'm willing to exceed the speed limit by any great amount.
I'll regularly go 5-10 over the limit, simply because I know that's below the median violation speed on most roads, and I don't risk a speeding ticket. I've found that a lot of fun can be had at, or very slightly above the limit on roads like Highway One between Stinson Beach and Tomales, or San Gregorio to Woodside.
On long rides in Eastern Oregon, Montana, Idaho, I'll occasionally open it up to much higher speeds, simply because there's absolutely zero traffic out there, and little to no law enforcement presence.
I spend a lot of time on I-5, since it's the most efficient way to get from Oregon to the Bay Area, which I do at least a couple of times a year. I'll maintain no more than 5 over the posted limit, unless there's someone willing to play rabbit, and then I'll follow from a reasonable distance at no more than 15 over the limit.
These speeds are no more dangerous than maintaining the speed limit; the risks of crashing are from other things, and as long as I pay attention, maintain situational awareness, I don't feel that anywhere from 5 to 15, or even 20 over the posted limit is hazardous in itself, as long as my speed isn't significantly higher (or lower) than traffic flow if there's much traffic.

 

[budman]

caponerd ..that is good speed...pay attention = keyword.

:teeth

:smoking

 

[daventura]

To break it down into even simpler terms...please see my signature.

:teeth

Great thread.

 

[Carlo]

caponerd ..that is good speed...pay attention = keyword.
:teeth
:smoking

Thanks, and I'd like to complement you and skidmarx. Excellent comments. Especially the stuff about skill vs judgement.

I had commented earlier today in a responce to someone who said only experienced riders should ride on highway 9. I mentioned owns9, who may have had a serious lapse of judgement on that road, and crashed badly, in spite of highly superior skills (from what others have said about him), and obviously, lots of experience with highway 9.
I'm glad to hear that he's recovered from his injuries. He's apparently quit riding on the street.

 

[louemc]

"As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say, we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know."

OMG The sacred secret of knowing. It was channeled from an Ascended master to a Guru in upper (OK that's a secret as well) and only revealed to gluttons for punishment that medatated till their asses went numb (that's where the stories of levitation come from, but it's just a case of not being able to feel the floor).

But... posting it on the internet is OK as long as it on BARF :rofl