Good Speed / Bad Speed

GAJ

Well-known member
No question, a right hand late apex is not as wide as a left hand late apex...on a blind right hander that double yellow is verboten territory...anywhere near it is toxic, hence the need for lower speeds on the right vs. left "blind" turn.

Of course, road condition and other friction reducers, (ie. gravel, damp, wet leaves etc.), have you constantly altering your lines as well.

Excess speed throws all this out the window and leads to Very Bad Things...toss in a couple of "buds" showing you their "stuff" and the potential for Really Very Bad Things increases exponentially.
 

budman

General Menace
Staff member
As I wrote earlier in this thread:
What I’m trying to do in this thread is sketch out a strategy for managing speed that distinguishes between Good Speed and Bad Speed. That is, one that identifies a sharp line between good clean fun and potentially deadly excess. Short of finding a way to instill good judgment, a strategy that can be employed by following a few simple rules is the most we can hope to accomplish.​

That is sure the goal and a damn good one.

On the Vision piece.. I must admit I can be a cheater. BY that I mean I use my seeing eye dog. In my case I will use the rider ahead to help me gauge what is around the corner. This application for me is really limited to folks I have ridden with before and trust.

What I trust is their consistant reactions to things on the road. I can read my buddy L8braker like a book. His reaction becomes a part of my sight because I am comfortable using him as a basis to evaluate the Good Speed.

Most of the time we ride he will ride in front and he is a little more aggressive in his riding and his confidence in reacting to a situation.

Example:

We were riding up 84 at a decent pace him in front and me behind.

Going around a right hand corner I saw him flinch and quickly start to change his line and the sudden jerk to the brakes as he picked up something with his vision.

I slowed in the corner and comfortably slipped past the car that had started to make an illegal U turn in a blind turn and stopped leaving just 3' of room on my right side!

What was a :wow for Danny was only a :wtf for me as I cruised thru the 3' of open pavement. If the car had not stopped.. I believe Danny would have hit it.. he was a little :mad for sure. I would have been able to stop for sure and actually just eased off the brakes to go ahead and go thru the gap rather than stop and wait for the car to complete the turn.. after we passed we gave the appropriate :thumbdown :rant to the driver and proceeded.

So for me.. using Danny may not be the best for Danny, but it does allow me to increase my Good Speed... by cheating.

:smoking
 

Beauregard

Aut Agere Aut Mori
Great to see you today Dan.

Regarding the OP,

Tough subject to tackle. To be brief and to speak only from my own experience, I speed everyday, excessively. When I get on the freeway I think to myself "of th 11.8 miles from my garage to my parking space at work CHP has 5.1 miles of Highway 101 in which to catch me." I go at least 100 and usually get up to 130 in that short time. But there's a caveat: if there are cars on the road, and by on the road I mean that I will have to pass, I slow way down. As we all know, cars are unpredictable and that's what will kill me.

So long as I can maintain a high probability of prediction- good line of sight, clear and clean road surface, and a good state of alert- I feel safe.

Add something unpredictable, and at 130mph you're goner.
 

DataDan

Mama says he's bona fide
So long as I can maintain a high probability of prediction- good line of sight, clear and clean road surface, and a good state of alert- I feel safe.

Add something unpredictable, and at 130mph you're goner.
Thanks for that, Beau--a good example of Good Speed. Not my cup of tea, but it doesn't sound like you're putting yourself in any particular danger.

Attitude about speed becomes pathological when the kind of speeding you're talking about is equated to the same velocity while weaving in and out of freeway traffic. The only similarity between the two is a number on a dial. Safety--or lack of it--is in the context, not in the number.
 

injun

Well-known member
living

As far as the skills of others let it lay, we are of different persons and different ideas,of who we are and what are skills are ,how, much money we can squander on our love of speed,what we are willing to pay, we all know the price of living free.
Walks With The Wind.
 

Cheyenne

Well-known member
I didn't start to really "get it" in terms of balancing fun, speed and safety while driving until I had lost it a few times while trying to drive over my head.

The last time it happened, I was lucky to not tumble down a slope, and I had again induced the situation myself, blindly hoping I would learn by dealing with the situation. I knew what to do, but had no experience doing it. I thought that was how you learned to go faster.

I slowed down after that, and realized that I could learn to go faster without actually going faster, until my skills supported it, that I didn't have to step out over the edge, just hang my little toe off.

We need a way to teach people this, that emulating the fast is not the way to be fast, that pushing it is something you only do with what you have, not as a method to gain.

But to do so you have to get past the fact that the inexperienced can get away with going faster than they should very often, so there is no feedback until they do something REALLY dangerous.

In a new rider's first year, how likely is it they're actually even safe at 60MPH on a straight road? How easily will they be taken out by something that a few more months of experience would allow them to easily handle?

Past forcing the issue with real training requirements for licensing, the new rider must find a way to value Control of the Situation over control of the bike. I found it on the back side of learning to go fast, I started instinctually going slower as I could "feel" how dangerous it was in situations. For instance, after doing a lot of work on hard braking into corner entrances, I got a better feel of real braking distances...and noticed I started giving extra room to the car in front of me on the freeway. It felt uncomfortable to be as close as I'd commonly driven a short time ago.

Could a simulator help? With the uncommon, but easy to happen and often deadly situations coming up while people "play". Like a moto video game, but deer come out at you, or there is debris in the road, and cars coming out of driveways. So people could get the feel of what they really need to be prepared for, before they learn it the hard way.

Unfortunately I think those drawn to the adrenalin rush will always pad our statistics out in a negative way. Those riders NEED the ignorance of what they are doing to feed the rush.

This was supposed to be short...bleh.
 

JamesR6

Enjoys Algebra
A little applied probability

Hi folks, I just discovered this 1Rider forum and thinks it's a great idea for sharing ideas about safety etc. I spent the past 3 years back east in NJ (just moved back last August) and while I was there I participated in a forum out there called tristatesportbikes.com, a good bunch of folks. Anyway, I posted the following there, which I'm just going to paste here, for you guys to read. I think it's useful - food for thought anyway.

Enjoy! ------ (The following is from a old post on tristatesportbikes.com)

zc_sandman said:
4. We crash because we want to go fast. Sometimes, even the posted speed limit is inappropriate. Coming over a blind crest at 45mph might be too fast if you can't stop the bike before hitting the hazard you only see when it's too late. Speed reduces time (to react) and adds distance (to react) in emergency situations.

This is something that is always on my mind as I ride around our lovely backroads here in NJ and NY. In fact I was thinking about this yesterday as I was heading up Cr519, slowing down to crest a little hill which I happen to know is followed by a corner. I thought “just how risky is it to take a corner a little faster than your sight allows for proper corrections?”

Sandman’s post prompted me to work work out some hypothetical numbers to answer my question.

Let’s say there is a one in ten-thousand chance that there is an accident causing event around every corner that you are going too fast to be able to avoid – leading to some kind of accident. (I know I’m pulling this number out of my ass, but just for the sake of argument…)

So, the chances of you making it around a corner without problems is: 1 minus 1/10,000 which is 0.9999.

So, if you ride aggressively how long do you have to ride before you have a 50/50 chance overall of having such an accident?

If you go around 10 corners your chance of not having an accident is 0.9999 * 0.9999 * 0.9999 * …. * 0.9999 (ten times), or (0.9999)^10 = 0.99900045.

So let’s say you go around “N” corners, then when is (0.9999)^N = 0.5?

So we solve for N, using a little help from a log table, and find that N is 6,931 times.

Let’s say then that there are 50 such corners in an aggressive rider’s daily rip around the backroads, that means over 138 rides he has a 50/50 chance of having such an accident. If he has 20 rides per season, then he will have a 50/50 chance of having such an accident over 7 years of riding. If we have 7 such riders at TSSB, then we have a 50/50 chance of seeing such an accident report posted each year.

You get the idea. Just think if all of us reduced the number of blind corners we take too fast to just one per ride then probably we would not see such posts at TSSB at all!
 
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DataDan

Mama says he's bona fide
I thought “just how risky is it to take a corner a little faster than your sight allows for proper corrections?"...

If we have 7 such riders at TSSB, then we have a 50/50 chance of seeing such an accident report posted each year.
Thanks for that. Interesting analysis and an important message.
 

DCrippa

Member
Great thread - really, some of the best advice I've come across in a longtime. As a relatively new rider (1yr) I have constantly sought out knowledge on this subject to make me a better and safer rider.

I've been fortunate to have the guidance of those more experienced & professional to steer me in the right direction. I have also seen and experienced the aftermath of tragedy resulting from others failure in judgement on a bike - however it doesn't stop me from enjoying mine. If anything I just respect it all the more and continue to learn.

As many may also have found themselves to have a natural ability with a bike (as I feel I have with it), it's only natural to want to improve upon and push the limits. I feel inherantly we & our decisions, are the greatest risks posed to ourselves.
Knowing when and where one can push those limits only comes from experience. Having read all ive read and absorbed all the advice given to me - I still had the front end wash out on me three times this year in inclement weather. I've had close calls with cabbies who turned right after signalling left while driving in the middle of two lanes. You can't plan for that other than being able to react from knowlwdge you better hope you have amassed from sites like this.

What I take from this thread is that if on the track you can never know 100% of the risks it's even much more so on the street. Thanks! I will be reassesing my own habits having read this. Sorry if it looks jacked typed on a phone.
 

Baptistro

Bapmarker
The attempt at humor is appreciated, but let's please keep this thread, and this forum (1Rider) on topic and the responses on point to the discussion.
 

Marcoose

50-50
What kinds of thinking about speed have you seen in your career as a motorcyclist?
Neat thread, Dan.

With my username, line and avatar, it goes without saying I'm in no hurry when on the bike, and seriously, please don't wait for me. I ride my ride, I get there when I get there.

Riding for me is 100% pleasure, 100% leisure, 100% fun. It's like playing with my cousins when I was little, you know, what's the rush? I own an awesome sports car --which I drive 100 times more aggresively than I ride the bike--, but I walk and/or pedal to work and to most my errands. Actually, between my wife and I, between the car and the bike, we probably don't drive more than 300-400 miles a month.

Back to speed, I ride my ride: never too much above the speed limit --to avoid tickets--, never much slower than the flow --to avoid road rage, and always within my limits. It keeps me safe from myself.

Cheers,

Marc.
 

sliverstorm

Well-known member
No question, a right hand late apex is not as wide as a left hand late apex...on a blind right hander that double yellow is verboten territory...anywhere near it is toxic, hence the need for lower speeds on the right vs. left "blind" turn.

Hmm. I think I see what you mean, but imho the blind left handers are the worse of the two- if you apex close to the line and *lean*, your head and some of your torso is actually in the other lane. Also, idk about you guys but I almost never travel at a speed so fast I wouldn't be able to change my line in a right hander mid turn if someone enters my lane. On a right hander you tighten the arc; easy to do fast. On a left hander you have to widen the arc, and that seems to be harder to do fast, esp. since you need to cancel your lean.

Getting comfortable with a bike seems to be the bad thing for me :| Every time I get on a new bike (I'm up to 3 now) I go all slow, and I'm perfectly happy and totally in control at speed limit or less. I just have to figure out how to stay that way. My new bike might help that, it's a XT500 and the previous owner told me not to ride it faster than 55 on the freeway (something to do with overheating, and not being built for those speeds). He mighta been full of hot air, but I'm following it, cause I figure so long as traffic isn't running me down and I'm not obstructing people, nothing wrong with 55mph.
 

adoliver

Well-known member
That is sure the goal and a damn good one.

So for me.. using Danny may not be the best for Danny, but it does allow me to increase my Good Speed... by cheating.

:smoking

At one point this thread mentioned mentors and I couldn't agree more that they are necessary. Without real-life :wow then it is very hard to discover the unknown-unknowns. Granted lots of thought and scenario planning helps, but there's always "I never thought of that." When I learned to drive my dad made me point out any known-unknowns I saw and if I passed them would ask me "did you see ..." when it was safe. ex: a person pulling out of a drive-through into the road; are they checking the road or their food? This driving mentality saved me a lot of hairy situations when I started riding. And I think the motorcycle equivalent is a good lead. If for example your lead takes a corner slower than you thought he would you can ask yourself "why" and even ask him later.

Great point about the unknowns though I had a thankfully gentle experience with that when I took my first ride on my bike. When driving I pretty much always will tack on 5-10mph to any speed postings on corners when the road is good. At that time I actually thought that a motorcycle could corner BETTER than a car. :facepalm But being new I thought I was prudent by only adding what I would normally driving, thinking that was giving me an extra margin when it was really taking it away. Anyway reality hit when I took a hairpin turn too fast and went down doing ~15mph after breaking. Hadn't practiced enough so my bike wasn't fully upright before heavy braking or I would have made it. Thankfully I walked away with only a sore shoulder and a bent engine guard.

Thank's so much for great information storehouses like BARF where I can learn how to knock off those unknowns. Extra thanks for the post about the vanishing point, I saw that almost half a year ago and practiced it in my car. When I get my bike I won't have the same fear of cornering that I had after my spill above.

Lastly to contribute:
For city riding especially I find that if I can't concentrate on the road ahead AND know where the escape lanes (if any) are around me at all times then I need to slow down. This is a good skill even for driving; keeping track of "holes" in traffic that you can swerve into safely and knowing when you have no options will tell you that you had better be able to come to a complete stop before hitting the car in front of you.
 
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GAJ

Well-known member
Hmm. I think I see what you mean, but imho the blind left handers are the worse of the two- if you apex close to the line and *lean*, your head and some of your torso is actually in the other lane.

You are correct, trying to hit the "race apex" on a left hander will do exactly what you describe, which is why you late apex on both lefts and rights.

By doing so you give yourself more vision, but you always have the opportunity for more vision on a left vs. a right, using the correct technique, which results in the need for slower speeds (all other things being equal) for the right handers due to decreased vision.

Never outride your vision, don't road race and practice slow in fast out as there are no corner workers out there throwing up yellow flags for upcoming hazards.
 

DataAngel

Well-known member
Let me just say that I have been riding about 11 months now. I love every minute of it, but I DO NOT love the times when hindsight kicks in and you realize how STUPID something was that you just did.

I do not post much on the forums nor read much, but the areas I check out the most are the crash analysis and the 1rider forums. I have learnt a lot from just simply reading what has been posted. I am thankful that the forum is here and there are people like DataDan to represent the wise rider in all of us.

That wise rider does like to go "fast", but after learning lessons, sometimes the hard way I can safely say that I can enjoy riding slower as much as I can when I ride faster. Learning to ride with road conditions is something that most have learnt the hard way. I haven't been riding a lot recently since I have been busy with other areas in life... however one thing is certain, this short break along with the threads I have read on BARF and even this thread has helped me to reevaluate my "skill set". I am tired of reading the crashes and hearing about deaths and thinking back to those hindsight times... ive been very "lucky" on many occassions.

Thank you, to all those who continuously post realistic messages about riding safely and educate those that are willing to learn, for I am one of them! Keep on teaching! :thumbup
 

fonseca

Vet dude
That wise rider does like to go "fast", but after learning lessons, sometimes the hard way I can safely say that I can enjoy riding slower as much as I can when I ride faster. Learning to ride with road conditions is something that most have learnt the hard way.

Safe speed take years to attain for some riders. Some have so much previous off road racing/riding experience before taking it to the streets it comes quicker for them.

Take your time and enjoy the ride! :thumbup
 

DataDan

Mama says he's bona fide
Motorcycle acceleration and driver expectations

The thorough investigation of a recent fatal crash in Fort Collins, Colorado, and a press release from the PD describing their conclusions offer some insight into how a motorcycle's unexpected speed can lead to a collision. And in addition, how hard acceleration can make a crash more likely too.

According to the press release and news reports, a motorcycle westbound on a four-lane divided street hit the right front corner of a northbound SUV that had stopped at a stop sign on a two-lane residential street before crossing. When it was 500 feet east of the intersection, the motorcycle was at the 40mph speed limit, but it quickly accelerated up to 80mph. Had the rider maintained his 40mph speed, the SUV would have crossed when he was still 200ft away--3 seconds travel time, which most of us wouldn't even consider close. But due to its sudden speed increase, the motorcycle covered the distance in much less time and collided with the SUV as it crossed the westbound lanes.

One key to survival in traffic is predictability. By riding in a way that makes it easy for other motorists to visualize your trajectory, you help them make good decisions about when it's safe to cross your roadway and when they must yield. They visualize more accurately when your speed and acceleration are consistent with their expectations. And what they expect is speed at the normal flow of traffic and car-like acceleration rates.

While a sportbike's extraordinary acceleration can be a lifesaver, it can also get you into serious trouble. So before you use it, make sure you're not going to end up somewhere you're not expected to be.
 

DataDan

Mama says he's bona fide
SPEED STRATEGY: Rule 3

Rule 3: Go with the flow.

In urban and suburban areas, match speed and acceleration to the flow of traffic.​


The Tempo of Traffic

Traffic flows in a rhythm governed by street layout, surroundings, vehicles, and drivers. In the city, cross-traffic and parking create friction that keeps speeds down. Trucks accelerate slowly and may stop unexpectedly for a pickup or delivery. Drivers can be unpredictable as they search for their destination. Factors like these drive the tempo of traffic. Motorists recognize the tempo, which creates expectations about speed, and those expectations limit what they see.

Where drivers are accustomed to seeing traffic moving within a normal range of speeds, they may make decisions based on expectations rather than estimations. Waiting to turn left, a driver scans for interfering traffic, but he can't see everything at once. Vehicles may be approaching from three directions--left, right, and oncoming--so he divides his attention as well as he can. Glancing left to check for traffic, he doesn't regard the motorcycle he sees a half-block away as a threat. He doesn't judge its speed, but he has come to expect that a vehicle at that distance won't interfere with his turn. So he completes his checks and pulls into the intersection. However, if the motorcycle was doing double the normal speed and is now just a few feet away, his decision to make the turn was horribly wrong.

Unlike a car, a motorcycle isn't constrained by the flow of traffic, and when you're stuck amid an oozing mass of steel, the bike's maneuverability and performance tempt you to just give the bars a quick yank, gas it, and go. But the speed it attains so quickly may be incompatible with the prevailing tempo. Because other motorists don't expect high speed, it creates conflicts that are usually resolved in favor of a bigger, heavier vehicle.

Riding in Synchrony

Where population and traffic density are high and drivers are focused on their errands, a motorcycle can go unnoticed among the many targets competing for attention. But if you're riding in synchrony, integrated with the flow of traffic, distracted fellow motorists can more easily accommodate your actions.
  • Match speed to traffic. You become part of the flow at a speed other motorists expect.

  • Match acceleration to traffic. At maximum acceleration, a motorcycle can cover ground in half the time as a car, so a hard launch into open space after clearing a snag can surprise the driver of a crossing vehicle who expects a clear path.

  • Look for pathological traffic flow and don't make it worse with your own excessive speed. Construction, a traffic accident, or a double-parked delivery truck interrupts the normal flow and drivers don't know what to expect. Even a normally attentive driver can make a hairball move in an awkward situation.
These rules don't supersede common practices that can keep you safe. Going slightly faster than adjacent traffic limits your exposure to blind spots. At 5mph faster--not 20mph--you reduce an obvious risk while staying within the range of other drivers' expectations. And briefly accelerating to free yourself from a knot of traffic reduces another obvious risk. But when you reach the open space, resume normal speed. For the moment anyway, you're in a safer spot clear of traffic. You'll be in sync with the flow of traffic but not surrounded by it.


By riding in synchrony with the traffic flow you become more predictable. Other motorists know where you are and where you're going to be, so they can make good decisions. And their good decisions will keep you safer.


5/28/10--rewritten.
 

DataDan

Mama says he's bona fide
SPEED STRATEGY: Rule 4

Rule 4: Follow the principles of The Pace in sport riding.

The style of street sport riding advocated by Nick Ienatsch in The Pace emphasizes skill and fun over straight-line speed. Keep the straightaway speeds down and focus on the corners. Risk is lower because errors resulting from poor speed judgment are reduced. But your cornering skill is fully utilized, and you still experience the sensations that make sport riding so addictive: leaning the motorcycle, high lateral g's, and acceleration through the turn.​


At a comfortable straightaway speed--which might technically earn a ticket but is nowhere near jail territory--you approach the next turn. Thanks to your moderation, it doesn't sneak up on you. You have plenty of time and mental bandwidth to assess curvature and surface hazards, and to pick a turn-in point. To set entry speed you downshift to second, roll off the gas, and maybe apply a touch of brake.

A forceful steering input gets the bike leaned over quickly, and though your straight-line speed was modest, you're now using all of your skills, maybe skimming a knee puck, and digging the lateral g's. Turn-in speed was at least as fast as it would have been if you had scorched the straight, but you're on a better line, more precisely executed, thanks to planning. Not only that, you're having more fun than usual, absent the aggravation of under- or over-braking after poorly judging entry speed on an unfamiliar turn.

Smoothly and steadily you roll on the gas as the bike drifts out to the fog line. Straightening up, you maintain roll-on until you're back to vertical then reduce throttle and hold a steady 60mph with the next turn in sight 200 yards ahead. You give yourself a quick report card on the last turn and begin planning for the next one.


That's the way one rider practices The Pace. If you have other ideas, please post them up. And there's a lot more to The Pace than just limiting straight-line speed. Read the whole thing in the stickied 1Rider thread.
 

iehawk

Well-known member
The thorough investigation of a recent fatal crash in Fort Collins, Colorado, and a press release from the PD describing their conclusions offer some insight into how a motorcycle's unexpected speed can lead to a collision. And in addition, how hard acceleration can make a crash more likely too.

According to the press release...

One key to survival in traffic is predictability. By riding in a way that makes it easy for other motorists to visualize your trajectory, you help them make good decisions about when it's safe to cross your roadway and when they must yield. They visualize more accurately when your speed and acceleration are consistent with their expectations. And what they expect is speed at the normal flow of traffic and car-like acceleration rates.

I totally agree about being predictable on the road as the safer way to be, whether on the bike or in the car. From maintaining a smooth flow of traffic, not doing erratic or last minute maneuvers.

Also using the turn signals early instead of as one changing lane or turning (or not at all)... braking early, instead of hard last minute.

I think this should be the campaign out there. I've seen things getting worse year on... our driving/riding condition is sad. More and more drivers/riders just don't know how to drive/ride properly anymore. Accidents are becoming norms and happen on daily basis.

One can only hope.
 
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