Good Speed / Bad Speed

two wheel tramp

exploring!
As Dan pointed, the 4-second rule is a function of the speed, and nevertheless, many turns on 9 demand 15mph. Just read the accident statistics.

As cars generally put faster lap times than bikes, many drivers can drive faster than you can ride 35 or 9. Thus, you're always going to be somebody's hood ornament. You can always pull to the right, motion to the following driver to pass you, and you can continue and enjoy your ride at the good speed, instead of the bad speed. Again, the stats speak for themselves.

Cheers,

Marc.

I think we need to go riding together. I pulled over on Pescadero to let a car go around and again heading into Boulder Creek. I have fun on 9 and 35 riding within 5 miles of the speed limit. :laughing


DataDan, it took me a few days to read through this thread but it was VERY worth it, so thank you for taking the time to post it. I hope more riders take the time to read through this thread and especially to take a look at the braking distance chart you shared.


I have come to respect that stopping my motorcycle safely is much different than the car OR the bike. I had one scary off ramp experience about three months into riding that gave me a healthy respect for what my bike can and cannot do with me at the helm.
 

DataDan

Mama says he's bona fide
DataDan, it took me a few days to read through this thread but it was VERY worth it, so thank you for taking the time to post it. I hope more riders take the time to read through this thread and especially to take a look at the braking distance chart you shared.
Thanks for slogging through. :cool

Are you using the 4-Second Rule? I found that the limit it imposes on speed was easy to follow because I don't feel comfortable going faster in situations with short sight distance. But formalizing the rule and occasionally counting out the interval reinforces my intuition. I get carried away at times, especially on familiar roads, and the need for a 4-second interval lingers in the back of my mind, reminding me that without it I don't have the space I need to react to the unexpected.
 
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two wheel tramp

exploring!
Thanks for slogging through. :cool

Are you using the 4-Second Rule? I found that the limit it imposes on speed was easy to follow because I don't feel comfortable going faster in situations with short sight distance. But formalizing the rule and occasionally counting out the interval reinforces my intuition. I get carried away at times, especially on familiar roads, and the need for a 4-second interval lingers in the back of my mind, reminding me that without it I don't have the space I need to react to the unexpected.

:laughing

I was counting on 280 yesterday evening, so yes! In City traffic I'm a bit more occupied with other variables so I give myself a couple of car lengths and it seems to work just fine.

Today speed was a benefit. I had a road raging driver in front of me. I used my smaller vehicle and better handling to put distance between us ASAP. Lane sharing is good. :thumbup
 

DataDan

Mama says he's bona fide
I was counting on 280 yesterday evening, so yes! In City traffic I'm a bit more occupied with other variables so I give myself a couple of car lengths and it seems to work just fine.
The 4-Second Rule described in this thread basically never applies on a freeway. It's not like the 2-second rule, which dictates following distance behind another vehicle going the same speed as you. It applies to the road itself and is intended to protect you from hidden hazards, such as a vehicle pulling out of a driveway over the crest of a hill or a pile of crashed motorcycles around a blind turn. If, at steady speed, it would take you 4 seconds to reach that pile, you will usually have enough distance to brake to a stop.

Where you really need it is on mountain roads with blind turns and crests. The rule will tell you where you must slow down to be able to stop for an unseen obstacle. And it will also tell you where braking distance is NOT the limiting factor and you can enjoy higher speed, subject to the limits of your skills and the capability of your motorcycle.
 

two wheel tramp

exploring!
The 4-Second Rule described in this thread basically never applies on a freeway. It's not like the 2-second rule, which dictates following distance behind another vehicle going the same speed as you. It applies to the road itself and is intended to protect you from hidden hazards, such as a vehicle pulling out of a driveway over the crest of a hill or a pile of crashed motorcycles around a blind turn. If, at steady speed, it would take you 4 seconds to reach that pile, you will usually have enough distance to brake to a stop.

Where you really need it is on mountain roads with blind turns and crests. The rule will tell you where you must slow down to be able to stop for an unseen obstacle. And it will also tell you where braking distance is NOT the limiting factor and you can enjoy higher speed, subject to the limits of your skills and the capability of your motorcycle.

:facepalm

I haven't hit the twisties since reading the thread. I was thinking more in terms of stopping distance, period, but thanks for clarifying that. I'll still be counting out the distance between myself and cars from time to time. I guess since most of my riding is in the City I was thinking more of stopping distance and safe following speeds in city traffic.
 

Deelite

New member
It is sooo rare to have to come to a complete stop that it shouldn't be in your mind at all! Target fixation is the main culprit! Stop staring at things, note their position and make adjustments, NOW... not 2 seconds into the problem, instantly! When riding "blind corners" you either risk a confrontation, or drive sooo slow as to be a GREAT hazard on the roadway! D
 

hypergirl

AFM #990
Sorta like music. The goal isn't to play the piece the fastest - it's to make it sound good :)

I really like this, and it sums up my philosophy on how fast to ride.

Sorry if this is too touchy-feely:rolleyes, but, when I'm riding, my intention is to create beauty in the world around me :party

So, if I'm not having fun and exuding delight while riding, I'm prolly going too damn fast (for me).... which is ugly :teeth.
 

flying_hun

Adverse Selection
I really like this, and it sums up my philosophy on how fast to ride.

Sorry if this is too touchy-feely:rolleyes, but, when I'm riding, my intention is to create beauty in the world around me :party

So, if I'm not having fun and exuding delight while riding, I'm prolly going too damn fast (for me).... which is ugly :teeth.

I'll second that. I want to play with a road. It's very similar to skiing and making pretty turns that take advantage of the features of the terrain, almost like dancing with the hill/road. :ride
 

two wheel tramp

exploring!
I really like this, and it sums up my philosophy on how fast to ride.

Sorry if this is too touchy-feely:rolleyes, but, when I'm riding, my intention is to create beauty in the world around me :party

So, if I'm not having fun and exuding delight while riding, I'm prolly going too damn fast (for me).... which is ugly :teeth.

That is a beautiful way to describe it!

I'll second that. I want to play with a road. It's very similar to skiing and making pretty turns that take advantage of the features of the terrain, almost like dancing with the hill/road. :ride


Funny, I have thought of riding as being similar to ballet. I had 9 all to myself a few weeks back and the delight of going my speed (speed limit or close to it) without anyone riding my butt made for one of the funnest rides I have ever had. I'm starting to really love turning. :)
 

DataDan

Mama says he's bona fide
SPEED STRATEGY: Rule 5

Rule 5: Match the mode to the road

Develop distinct modes for sport riding and normal travel. When the road offers an opportunity for fun and is free of traffic, take advantage of it if you like. But if the potential reward is small or if the environment presents excessive risk, restrict yourself to best practices for safe riding. I call the two combat mode and transit mode.​


In combat mode you're riding at a time and place favorable to the extra fun--and compatible with the extra risk--of sport riding or stunting. Speed is a personal judgment limited by your abilities and your concern about a ticket, but the environment is free of the usual threats, so you can wick it up and enjoy the reward without putting yourself in excessive danger. You're getting a good return in fun for a modest investment of risk.

In transit mode, the default applicable to most riding, your objective is to get safely from Point A to Point B. Risk is high, as it usually is on the street, and the potential return in fun is low. So rather than put yourself in danger pointlessly, obey the law (flexibly when normal traffic speed exceeds the limit) and employ best practices taught by MSF, etc. Acknowledge the risk inherent in the environment and don't compromise safety for trivial thrills.

One of my favorite loops is about 75 miles. I go 20 miles through town and on the freeway before I get to the first fun turn. That's all in transit mode. Then it's about 10 miles of grade AAA twisties in combat mode, but with an eye open for conditions that may call for a mode switch. When I come upon traffic, I revert to transit mode, following sedately until I can pass and resume combat mode. Then a few miles through a very small town in transit mode at the speed limit--not because of cops (never seen one there) but in consideration of the residents. Then it's back to combat mode for 10 miles of twisties; out to a main highway and through a cluster of homes, wineries, and ranches in transit mode; more twisties in combat mode; and finally 25 miles in transit mode to get back home.

As you can see, to adopt this style you must be aware of the ever-changing environment and switch riding mode accordingly. Importantly, there is no intermediate mode. You're either riding legally and observing safe practices, or you're taking advantage of a carefully chosen opportunity to have some fun. This promotes discipline, and it encourages you to seek out roads with few hazards where you can enjoy sport riding at its best.

Three-fourths of fatal Bay Area sportbike crashes 2005-2009 occurred in urban and suburban areas, not on the mountain and canyon roads where a sportbike is most at home. And three-fourths of those crashes were the rider's fault, often due to excessive speed. Not just speed over the limit, but speed the rider couldn't manage or which created its own danger in the traffic environment. You can reduce your chances of becoming a victim by carefully choosing the right time and place to enjoy higher speed, and otherwise exercising the discretion street riding demands.
 
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DataDan

Mama says he's bona fide
Vanishing Act

A key factor in being seen is traveling at a speed that other motorists expect.


One theme in this thread is that driver and rider education don't teach us to think about speed in ways that promote safer riding. All we're ever taught is that the speed limit is probably safe, and that anything over it is dangerous--a distinction we quickly learn is meaningless. This deficiency is glaringly obvious when discussion turns to speed enforcement. An opinion often expressed by those who like to ride fast is that speed limits are created for one reason: to separate them from their money. But while enforcement practice is sometimes about emptying your pocket and filling the government's, the limits themselves usually exist for a good reason: They make traffic predictable so drivers can maneuver safely on the roadway. When speeds match the surroundings, motorists can make turns, enter and exit parking, yield to pedestrians, and accommodate other activity with little risk of a crash.

A rider who doesn't understand why the limit is what it is and ignores it arbitrarily can endanger both himself and others. Because the posted limit represents underlying constraints of the road and surroundings, he must grasp those constraints before deciding he can ignore the limit. Maybe at 3:00am Main Street is deserted--no traffic, no pedestrians, no parked vehicles--so a 60mph wheelie in the 25mph zone doesn't create much danger. But at noon, with all those hazards present, it could be deadly. Recognizing elements that constrain speed is essential for distinguishing between good speed and bad speed.

These environmental constraints create expectations among motorists about speed--reflected in the limit--and they adopt driving habits that make it possible to accommodate traffic at expected speeds. But they see what they expect to see--the unexpected, not so much--so excessive speed can practically make a motorcycle disappear.


Out-riding your sight distance

At high speed a motorcycle becomes a danger that a driver must reckon with when it is still far down the road. In the worst case, the motorcycle is on a collision course even though it is out of sight, beyond an intervening rise or bend. The driver checks carefully, sees clear roadway, and pulls out. But as he does, a motorcycle crests the hill and collides with the car. Driver inattention has nothing to do with that kind of crash.

Extraordinary speed in ordinary traffic

A speeding rider can also be in danger when the road is straight, level, and unobstructed because a driver has a limited decision horizon, or span of road he checks before crossing traffic. He looks only as far as he must to make sure his maneuver won't interfere with vehicles moving at the speed he expects to find on that road. It's an intuitive judgment, not a precisely measured one, but if a driver can safely cross 150 feet ahead of the normal 30-mph traffic, he won't worry about a vehicle 200 feet away because he assumes it's moving at normal speed. However, if it's a motorcycle doing 60 mph, it's just 2 seconds away and in immediate danger from the car pulling out in front of it.

The difficulty of judging speed

Even if a driver does see a motorcycle coming from beyond his decision horizon, he may not be able to judge its speed very well. When a motorcycle is moving straight toward an observer, it is a stationary dot in his field of vision. The visual cue for speed is increasing size, but since a motorcycle is just a small point in his visual field to begin with, it doesn't grow noticeably until it is quite close. Thus, the observer can't perceive its speed accurately and sees a fast but distant motorcycle as merely a dot in the background.

The acceleration deception

A motorcycle's acceleration can be deceptive too, because from a standing start, an aggressively accelerated bike can cover ground in half the time it takes a car. A driver waiting to turn left might be watching for traffic in several directions, so no potentially interfering vehicle gets full attention. He sees vehicles stopped at a light a half-block distant but ignores them because they're too far away to be a threat, and he turns his attention elsewhere. But while he may expect a safe 10-second interval from traffic at that light, he'll have only 5 seconds if one of them is a hard-charging motorcycle.

Limited opportunity to be seen in the mirror

Finally, speed reduces the visibility of a motorcycle to vehicles ahead traveling in the same direction because it decreases time spent in the mirror field, and that reduces the chance of being seen by a motorist scanning for traffic approaching from behind. The driver may check his mirrors carefully enough to spot a vehicle traveling 5 or 10 mph faster than he, but not enough to see a motorcycle going substantially faster. If the motorcycle overtakes at +20mph, it will be in the visual field covered by the driver's mirrors only one-fourth as long as it would if it were at +5mph. One-fourth the time means one-fourth the likelihood of being seen.


We all enjoy the acceleration and speed our machines are capable of, but when excessive speed creates a situation where our safety depends on other motorists anticipating and accommodating it, we're in trouble. Because most likely they won't.

Rules offered earlier in this thread will make it easier for others to see you:
  • Maintain speed that allows you to see the roadway at least 4 seconds ahead.
    With a clear view 4 seconds ahead, you're not going to be surprised by hazards revealed as terrain opens up or as you clear obstacles--and other drivers won't be surprised by you. If a threat appears, you'll be able to stop without resorting to emergency braking, which also protects you from vehicles behind that could rear-end you. More details in this post.

  • Go with the flow.
    Recognize the tempo of traffic and ride in synchrony with it. By matching speed and acceleration to the prevailing flow, you become part of it at a speed other motorists are expecting.

  • Match the mode to the road.
    Make a sharp distinction between opportunities to enjoy sport riding, and situations that offer little reward for high risk and demand your best to negotiate safely even at moderate speed.
 
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Marcoose

50-50
Good stuff, Dan! :thumbup

The visual cue for speed is increasing size, but since a motorcycle is just a small point in his visual field to begin with, it doesn't grow noticeably until it is quite close. Thus, the observer can't perceive its speed accurately and sees a fast but distant motorcycle as merely a dot in the background.
In another state where I had a driver's license, I remember reading in the DMV booklet the same argument about large objects, particularly slow-moving trains at railroad crossing.

Neither here or there, your point is right on, distance and time of collision can be a royal PITA to judge.
 

DataDan

Mama says he's bona fide
In another state where I had a driver's license, I remember reading in the DMV booklet the same argument about large objects, particularly slow-moving trains at railroad crossing.
A few years ago this came up in a different context, discussion of a crash where a motorcycle rear-ended a stopped pickup. I suggested that it may have involved "the 'looming effect', whereby the object appears to grow suddenly in size as it gets closer..." The crasher's companion, who avoided the impact, replied:
I definitely experienced this, because no matter how hard I try to reconstruct the moments before the accident in my mind, all I remember is one thing: the truck ahead was at a safe distance...and suddenly I was RUSHING up to it. It's one of those things that seems impossible to imagine if you haven't experienced it (e.g. "Aww c'mon! You mean you didn't notice the truck was stopped???") No! I didn't notice--and I was looking straight at it!! It just suddenly loomed very large in my field of view, and I found myself in an "oh-sh*t" moment.
An important lesson is that there's some truth in that old chestnut, "The motorcycle came outta nowhere, I tell ya!" We can counteract the effect by keeping speed down when other vehicles threaten, and also by using the "weave" recommended in this video:

 

Punter

wants a scooter
I think most people tend to overestimate their ability and underestimate risk.

Educarating can help.

Track time can really help. More from being able to exceed the limit with minimal danger. Unfortunately some people just don't seem to learn how to avoid hitting the limit until they pass it at lease once.

Worked for me in a car. I doubt I'll do any track days on the bike due to a bad back but I'm a huge proponent.
 

mctom987

New member
First post!

I've had my motorcycle for 4 months now. When I bought it, all I wanted was to go fast. In all honesty, I'm glad I didn't get the bike I wanted, because I probably wouldn't be alive if I did.

Speed isn't what makes motorcycles fun. Yeah, it can be fun to go fast, but it's not the only way. I'm glad my bike's top speed is only ~92 because I don't think I could have handled 140 with no experience.

So, take it slow! Better to get there late than to get to the morgue early.
 

mar

Well-known member
For me the idea is to be smooth and in control. At least for the street. Try and go as closed to the same speed in the corners and ignore the high speed straights.
Any fool can go fast in a straight line.
 

iehawk

Well-known member
Thanks, Dan. This actually reminds me to a conversation I had years back with an uncle of mine.

It is something about the way we process what we see. The brain is compares images as they come and the difference in consequent image then translated for example... if the object is getting bigger then we're getting closer, and vice versa. Same thing with first time we see an object to the left, next it's to the right, we will translate that as the object moving from left to right.

The problem is we see a lot and when the difference is very small, the brain may not register it as a movement yet, unless we are focusing on it (making that object a priority to process). It's something about how the brain is selectively processing and prioritizing... one way is of using movement as one method, so that we're not overloaded/overwhelmed.

I believe this is why sometimes we would feel we're at pace with the car in front of us and then suddenly the car is already braking and we're coming to it fast. Our brain just didn't register the initial small changes, but waiting until the change is significant enough.

A good example of this is, remember meeting a long lost friend or cousin? Suddenly you notice he/she is fatter, skinnier, have less hair, more wrinkles, etc. Where you will hardly notice the changes in families and friends you see every day. Because when you see them every day, you only compare the 'images' of them from a shortwhile ago. Where the ones you haven't seen, you have 'older images' of them. The changes are more significant given the time difference.

I hope this makes sense.

This pretty much changed the way I ride/drive (and see things for that matter). Certain things I make a conscious decision to see and pay attention (make it a priority for the brain to process). Some I look at often (example: vehicles in front of me including the ones to the front left and right, blind curbs ahead).

I also actively look for cues like the space between other vehicles tires and the lines (I think it's the quickest tell-tale when someone is about to change lane or veer toward you).

And most importantly, always look to make sure there's a way out, and have a plan on how to use it (left or right, speed up or brake hard).

A few years ago this came up in a different context, discussion of a crash where a motorcycle rear-ended a stopped pickup. I suggested that it may have involved "the 'looming effect', whereby the object appears to grow suddenly in size as it gets closer..." The crasher's companion, who avoided the impact, replied:
I definitely experienced this, because no matter how hard I try to reconstruct the moments before the accident in my mind, all I remember is one thing: the truck ahead was at a safe distance...and suddenly I was RUSHING up to it. It's one of those things that seems impossible to imagine if you haven't experienced it (e.g. "Aww c'mon! You mean you didn't notice the truck was stopped???") No! I didn't notice--and I was looking straight at it!! It just suddenly loomed very large in my field of view, and I found myself in an "oh-sh*t" moment.
An important lesson is that there's some truth in that old chestnut, "The motorcycle came outta nowhere, I tell ya!" We can counteract the effect by keeping speed down when other vehicles threaten, and also by using the "weave" recommended in this video:

 
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