What will it take to convince you of climate change?

byke

Well-known member
One major downside of producing energy is heat, so bring on an ice age, we'll melt that shit. The opposite end of the thermal spectrum is an environment with an average global temperature significantly higher than today and...fuck that noise. Too bad we're exiting an ice age and not entering one.
 

ctwo

Merely Rhetorical
There have been lots of clean air efforts over the last several decades. Is it not a good thing for all our ICE's to run cleaner?



A-fucking-shit-ton, but this year is a little bit of an anomaly as far as major fires over the last decade are concerned. We can't do much about lightning, but we can make some defueling efforts and we can certainly update our infrastructure. It's not binary in that it's either everything or nothing, or that one imperfect thing ruins all the things. As with anything, it usually comes down to what you want. If you don't want to do anything, then you look for reasons to do nothing. If you want to do something, you look for ways to do something.



It's much easier where there are existing cultures which have an appreciation for efficiency, like with many EU countries, because it can exist without law and laws surrounding offspring are too 1984. In the US, excess is culturally celebrated and that's the dumb person's understanding of freedom, so as long as we have lots of dumb people, we're going to have lots of dumb people. That's a subject I really wish were a part of our founding documents, something about finite resources and beware of endless growth.

Yeah, if we implement an immediate moratorium on ice, that will help... but really? They are a part, maybe 1/5? But that will be supplanted with what? Something better? Really? Don't get me wrong. It was not that long ago that I sat behind an old American muscle car at a light and my eyes started burning from the fumes. But at this point, what is the ROI in this segment compared to the other 80%? And they are not here...

So, I still feel pretty good about me....
 

byke

Well-known member
No easy answers, but let's not fall into the whole slippery-slope-ourselves-into-quitting thing, because we need to make proportionate improvements with the increasing population just to stay right here and right here isn't that great for some people in especially toxic areas. The fact that it's legal to dump garbage into the ocean is ridiculous. The fact that unknown fracking fluid can make its way into aquifers is ridiculous. I understand that those things don't entirely fit into climate change, but it's a part of the top level effort of not wanting to live in scorched earth cancerous filth and the fact that-that top level desire doesn't clearly exist for everyone is self-destructive.
 

ctwo

Merely Rhetorical
No easy answers, but let's not fall into the whole slippery-slope-ourselves-into-quitting thing, because we need to make proportionate improvements with the increasing population just to stay right here and right here isn't that great for some people in especially toxic areas. The fact that it's legal to dump garbage into the ocean is ridiculous. The fact that unknown fracking fluid can make its way into aquifers is ridiculous. I understand that those things don't entirely fit into climate change, but it's a part of the top level effort of not wanting to live in scorched earth cancerous filth and the fact that-that top level desire doesn't clearly exist for everyone is self-destructive.

I don't know how to translate that into anything I can affect.

Other than population and spreading a scourge that impacts the worst offenders...
 

byke

Well-known member
If no good ideas are discussed and shared, then no good ideas exist, but if it becomes common knowledge that people feel a certain way, those ideas would eventually make their way into legislation. Of course do what you can, but it's not like you need to get rid of the Sunday hot-rod and yell at everyone with a plastic lid/straw on their soda, but if you get the opportunity to express your desire to create a more healthy environment, then feel free to share with friends/whomever and vote accordingly. I'm not sure why the perception seems to be that it's about what you specifically can do to fix the world right now, but I can tell you that when people hear things they don't like, the thing gets amplified in their mind well beyond reality. It's a great start if you just liked the idea of living in a healthy environment, because the rest tends to sort itself out from there.
 

UDRider

FLCL?
The biggest trick that corporations/big business pulled is that up to YOU to save the planet, and if you are not the most hippiest greeny living of the land you are a hypocrite and should shut up.

Mean while they are actively lobbying at the structural level to turn this planet in to a garbage can for a short term profits.

One example is that during the 20th century public transportation in this country has been dismantled, and car along with a nice house in suburbs pushed as American success story.

Result? Millions of cars clogging the streets, polluting the shit out of everything, and if you question the status quo. "Well you are driving an ICE car, you hypocrite, shut up." Well what the fuck is an alternative, not participate in modern society?

Mean while all the marketing is pushing mini tanks on to population with shitty gas milage, and various government subsidies to oil companies are keeping prices artificially low. That's without going in to U.S. foreign policy.
 
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ctwo

Merely Rhetorical
If no good ideas are discussed and shared, then no good ideas exist, but if it becomes common knowledge that people feel a certain way, those ideas would eventually make their way into legislation. Of course do what you can, but it's not like you need to get rid of the Sunday hot-rod and yell at everyone with a plastic lid/straw on their soda, but if you get the opportunity to express your desire to create a more healthy environment, then feel free to share with friends/whomever and vote accordingly. I'm not sure why the perception seems to be that it's about what you specifically can do to fix the world right now, but I can tell you that when people hear things they don't like, the thing gets amplified in their mind well beyond reality. It's a great start if you just liked the idea of living in a healthy environment, because the rest tends to sort itself out from there.

GTFO aint nobody listening to me.
 

Eldritch

is insensitive
Let’s not forget there have been at least 5 ice ages in history where the earth cooled off and heated up all by itself before humans existed. I’m sure man made pollution has an effect but maybe this just Nature?

Why do you think they are not the same thing?
 

Climber

Well-known member
When I was 12-14, I spent 2 full summers in Umatila National forest in Eastern Oregon, my parents are wildlife biologists and they were doing wildlife studies and took their 4 youngest kids along.

We camped out all summer. Near some of our camps, was the USFS forest management camp, it had about 40 workers who came out in the summer with equipment and did strategic clearing and burning to reduce the risk of these kinds of wildfires.

I don't know if California had the same thing, but it was a federal program with a US (Forest Service) money and effort done in National forests.

At some point a few decades later, the budget was significantly cut and the work in these camps stopped. I believe that it was during Reagan's time (as a rouph time period) that this happened.
 

budman

General Menace
Staff member
IMO...The human virus is adding to Mother Natures wishes. We are just bacteria infesting the planet and can't make it go away.

No matter what we do we are not going to stop it. Slow it.. I believe we can and we should.

Momma Earth can fix it with volcano's any time she wants.

Momma Universe has ways too.
 

Climber

Well-known member
I don't think that anybody on here has changed their mind, on this subject, in the last few months. :laughing
 

UDRider

FLCL?
IMO...The human virus is adding to Mother Natures wishes. We are just bacteria infesting the planet and can't make it go away.

No matter what we do we are not going to stop it. Slow it.. I believe we can and we should.

Momma Earth can fix it with volcano's any time she wants.

Momma Universe has ways too.

I keep seeing the version of this posted here and in other discussions.
The whole premise takes away the agency from humanity, and is fundamentally wrong. Mother nature is not turning this planet in to a giant garbage dump, WE are. We are not talking about thousands of years, we are talking about hundred(s) for this whole thing to go south. To put it in to concrete terms your grandkids and their kids will be impacted by it.
 

budman

General Menace
Staff member
I agree!.. but the earth has been warming for more time than we have impacted. We just added to it.. significantly. How much timewise :dunno

Still does not change who is really in charge = not us.
 

UDRider

FLCL?
I agree!.. but the earth has been warming for more time than we have impacted. We just added to it.. significantly. How much timewise :dunno

Still does not change who is really in charge = not us.

:faceplam
Guess which part of that warming is causing all this shit.
We kind of are in charge of that part.
 

Gabe

COVID-fefe
I agree!.. but the earth has been warming for more time than we have impacted. We just added to it.. significantly. How much timewise :dunno

Still does not change who is really in charge = not us.

Bud, I'm curious--why so resistant to admitting we are causing climate change and should do something about it? You've all but admitted all the basic components of human-caused warming/climate change, so why not go all in?
 

budman

General Menace
Staff member
Do you guys not admit that the earth was warming before our ancestors started burning shit?
 

Gabe

COVID-fefe
I am admitting it... !

Hopefully that will do :facepalm

Yay! Are you the first one on this thread to change his mind? Or did you change your mind? What did it?

Also, I get your point about nature being really in charge. It is, unfortunately, extremely true. We can't fix very much of what we've done but I think we can keep it from getting worse, and if we start down a new path my grandchildren might have a nice place to live.
 

budman

General Menace
Staff member
I agree!.. but the earth has been warming for more time than we have impacted. We just added to it.. significantly. How much timewise :dunno

Still does not change who is really in charge = not us.

I agreed with UD in this post just above.

Again I was asked.. because I noted other natural elements also involved. Am I not supposed to recognize that science??

Even after agree with UD I get called on it.. because I mentioned something other than just ... "Yeah. We are to blame period".??

I don't understand the end game here, but I am done playing.
 
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