What is keeping the locals off the MA grid??

[stangmx13]

Thank for the list.

According to the rulebook, bikes are homologated for 8 years and after that they age out. A 2011 ages out in 2020, supposedly.

unless Kawi asks for a 2yr extension or MA decides to keep it in. given that the model was the same through 2015, it bet it wont age out until 2023.

either way, u probably shouldnt race a bike that long. parts wear out. threads get soft. u can only rebuild a cylinder head so many times. etc etc. my R6 is pretty much done.

 

[Honey Badger]

unless Kawi asks for a 2yr extension or MA decides to keep it in. given that the model was the same through 2015, it bet it wont age out until 2023.

Okay, Jay, next excuse :laughing oh, wait, you're scared of being beat by a girl from Texas

 

[Holeshot]

Sex be damned AJ...you ride good no matter the gender.

 

[mulcibre]

I'm planning to race at least the California rounds next year once I have my prerequisite expert club rounds.

I'll echo the others in this thread, the effort to take care of all the minutiae required to be AMA legal, as well as the financial burden, is not a thrilling prospect.

On top of that, the reports of paddock theft and bike tampering in AMA are off putting. In the AFM paddock I wouldn't hesitate to leave a $50 bill tucked in with my damping adjustments overnight. So, there's a certain feeling of why even bother with MA when AFM and CVMA let me scratch that racing itch with some of the finest men and women to ever throw a leg over a motorcycle?

 

[stangmx13]

i hope everyone realizes that the required extras for MA are an added benefit for them. MA doesnt want people showing up with clapped out bikes, crashed leathers, & unprofessional teams (or no team). they dont want people acting like yahoos that just want to party with their friends. its a pro series. all racers and teams should act pro. MA is not club racing. MA doesnt pay a purse for the racer to have fun. they pay the purse because pro racers contribute to the show that they are a selling to sponsors. that includes acting and looking professional, having a clean well-setup pit, having posters or swag for autographs, and more. no class is an exception to all that, even if Twins and STK1000 isnt a pro as SBK.

also, its not hard to find stories of someone messing with bikes overnight in all paddocks. ive had it happen to me personally at AFM, WERA, and MA. i know plenty others in WERA. weve heard the other stories from MA. and im sure CVMA is more of the same. ive never had anything stolen. but i tend to put everything back in the van thats easily moved.

 

[mulcibre]

Robert, thanks for bringing up the point about it being a pro series, with the proportionately higher expectations for hardware and conduct.

To the original question, would you say there has been a shift in club racer culture that has caused fewer weekend warriors to turn up for the pro series?

What I hear from the Fast Old Guys is that the grids even in AFM are much smaller than they used to be. My opinion is that it's largely because of the greater appeal of trackdays to the casual motorcyclist who just wants to go out and spin laps without worrying about cops, trees, and minivans. Racing is too much of a hassle, or too expensive, for a lot of folks I talk to. (I think it may be too expensive for me too, every time I inspect my checking account :ride)

 

[stangmx13]

I actually think the number of clubs racers showing up to pro events has stayed about the same for the past decade. people seem to bring up the heyday of the 90s with massive grids everywhere. but the world was such a vastly different place, including all of motorcycling, that I don't think its worth discussing. we are never going back there. even if grids fill back up, it will be for different reasons. so lets move on.

yes grids seem to be smaller in lots of amateur racing. trackdays definitely maximize laps/$. all this is a service-based industry. perhaps club racing isnt providing the service that is needed to justify the added cost. I have no idea what else could be done, so good thing im not running a club :laughing.

club racing has turnover. I asked WERA about this. they said the avg racer seemed to stick around for 3-4yrs. so the club gets 3yrs to replace that racer. unfortunately, once new racers fall short, the novice classes suffer. if the novice class isnt full, things spiral downwards fast. no one likes racing alone, so any new racers don't enjoy it much and leave before 3yrs. then no one else signs up and the club dies. I think WERA West is stuck in this rut right now.

the idea that club racing is too much of a hassle is funny to me. its always been the same hassle. get a license, put numbers on it, sign up for races, tech the bike. with online signup now, things are as ez as they can be. IMO the "hassle" comes from the idea that racers MUST build the fastest bike ever to club race. cuz if you cant win a plastic trophy, why bother trying, am I right? :facepalm. clubs that feed into this entitled mindset like the AFM (Legacy?!?) seem to be doing better than others that stick with tradition. but I havent decided if I think thats the best approach because of other problems this creates.

 

[mulcibre]

I think the trackday providers have done a good job pushing NRS schools, so there's that. I agree that empty novice classes will lead to quick attrition as well.

In order to get into AMA, you need 6 expert rounds. I'm sure the average racer takes about 1.5 years to jump to expert, then needs at least 1 more year to reach the minimum expert rounds requirement.

If the average club racer really only sticks around for 3-4 years, that means the actual pool of MA-eligible racers would be quite small. That, then, would explain the low representation of clubbers out with the pros.

 

[mulcibre]

IMO the "hassle" comes from the idea that racers MUST build the fastest bike ever to club race. cuz if you cant win a plastic trophy, why bother trying, am I right? :facepalm. clubs that feed into this entitled mindset like the AFM (Legacy?!?) seem to be doing better than others that stick with tradition. but I havent decided if I think thats the best approach because of other problems this creates.

This is such a good point, I think a lot of this is self-inflicted. Do you think this arms-race escalation is an inherent part of racing? Every piece of literature I've ever read suggested that racers in any sport will push the rules as much as possible to gain an edge. AFM and the other clubs on the West Coast would be no exception, especially due to the money floating around out here.

AFM is a product of the people who race there, and most folks will pay money and time to gain an edge at the track. I suppose that's part and parcel with racing with one of the more competitive clubs in the country.

 

[budman]

i hope everyone realizes that the required extras for MA are an added benefit for them. MA doesnt want people showing up with clapped out bikes, crashed leathers, & unprofessional teams (or no team). they dont want people acting like yahoos that just want to party with their friends. its a pro series. all racers and teams should act pro. MA is not club racing. MA doesnt pay a purse for the racer to have fun. they pay the purse because pro racers contribute to the show that they are a selling to sponsors. that includes acting and looking professional, having a clean well-setup pit, having posters or swag for autographs, and more. no class is an exception to all that, even if Twins and STK1000 isnt a pro as SBK.

All good points Robert. :thumbup

 

[stangmx13]

I think the trackday providers have done a good job pushing NRS schools, so there's that. I agree that empty novice classes will lead to quick attrition as well.

In order to get into AMA, you need 6 expert rounds. I'm sure the average racer takes about 1.5 years to jump to expert, then needs at least 1 more year to reach the minimum expert rounds requirement.

If the average club racer really only sticks around for 3-4 years, that means the actual pool of MA-eligible racers would be quite small. That, then, would explain the low representation of clubbers out with the pros.

the required point total also makes it take a while for club racers to get an AMA license for STK1000 and SS. there is some fudge factor there because some clubs have a weird point system. but you still need good experience, not just showing up at club races.

all this works out for MA. I think they've done a good job aligning the eligibility with how well you'll do at an MA event. if you havent podium'd in an 600cc AFM/CVMA race or won a 600cc WERA, you probably arent going to qualify in MA SS. things are bit easier in STK1000, so maybe we'll say top 5 in club. I don't think MA wants to take a racer's entry fees if they arent going to qualify.

in Twins class, u can compete in 6 Novice races, get bumped to Expert, and go straight into MA. with how small and uncompetitive those grids can be, it really can be a fast-track to an AMA license.

This is such a good point, I think a lot of this is self-inflicted. Do you think this arms-race escalation is an inherent part of racing? Every piece of literature I've ever read suggested that racers in any sport will push the rules as much as possible to gain an edge. AFM and the other clubs on the West Coast would be no exception, especially due to the money floating around out here.

AFM is a product of the people who race there, and most folks will pay money and time to gain an edge at the track. I suppose that's part and parcel with racing with one of the more competitive clubs in the country.

this all makes sense for experts and especially the MA racers that use AFM as a testing ground. but I think its its bull for novices. the lack of skill and experience in the novice class make it pointless to spend $10k on bike upgrades, tire budget, etc. IMO, the goal for any novice should be to become an expert. you don't need to win to accomplish that. unfortunately, some like to "poach" the novice class championships, which could leads to an arms race there and driving new racers out of the novice classes.

i dunno, I have opinions on this stuff partly because im surprised by the mindset of other people. given that Im a back marker in MA, its somewhat obvious that id rather be a small fish in a big pond than a big fish in a small pond. ive thought that way since my first laps on the track, to my first novice race, to now. some people think the opposite and I don't understand why :laughing.

 

[mulcibre]

this all makes sense for experts and especially the MA racers that use AFM as a testing ground. but I think its its bull for novices. the lack of skill and experience in the novice class make it pointless to spend $10k on bike upgrades, tire budget, etc. IMO, the goal for any novice should be to become an expert. you don't need to win to accomplish that. unfortunately, some like to "poach" the novice class championships, which could leads to an arms race there and driving new racers out of the novice classes.

i dunno, I have opinions on this stuff partly because im surprised by the mindset of other people. given that Im a back marker in MA, its somewhat obvious that id rather be a small fish in a big pond than a big fish in a small pond. ive thought that way since my first laps on the track, to my first novice race, to now. some people think the opposite and I don't understand why :laughing.

I have some buddies running novice 600 in AFM, for them it's really disheartening to be up against folks with years of novice experience who are clicking off 54s and faster at THill East. How the heck is a fresh-faced racer who's never run under 2 minutes gonna compete with somebody who'd be finishing top-10 with the experts?

If you are the fastest, who are you learning from? I agree with you 100% on this Robert, I'd rather be dead last than first every time. (Unless those plastic trophies came with a nice cash Bonus!)

I'm sorry I'm pushing us a little off topic here :teeth

 

[thedub]

...MA doesnt want people showing up with clapped out bikes, crashed leathers, & unprofessional teams (or no team).

Well, Sam's out.

 

[mulcibre]

Well, Sam's out.

Hey! I have a team! So what if they're a pack of unprofessionals with crashed leathers and clapped out bikes?

 

[stangmx13]

Hey! I have a team! So what if they're a pack of unprofessionals with crashed leathers and clapped out bikes?

ya no big deal. u get to buy them fancy pit shirts so they can try to pass off as professionals. and they don't need to bring their leathers or bike when they are crewing.

 

[scratchpad]

the required point total also makes it take a while for club racers to get an AMA license for STK1000 and SS. there is some fudge factor there because some clubs have a weird point system. but you still need good experience, not just showing up at club races.

all this works out for MA. I think they've done a good job aligning the eligibility with how well you'll do at an MA event. if you havent podium'd in an 600cc AFM/CVMA race or won a 600cc WERA, you probably arent going to qualify in MA SS. things are bit easier in STK1000, so maybe we'll say top 5 in club. I don't think MA wants to take a racer's entry fees if they arent going to qualify.

in Twins class, u can compete in 6 Novice races, get bumped to Expert, and go straight into MA. with how small and uncompetitive those grids can be, it really can be a fast-track to an AMA license.

this all makes sense for experts and especially the MA racers that use AFM as a testing ground. but I think its its bull for novices. the lack of skill and experience in the novice class make it pointless to spend $10k on bike upgrades, tire budget, etc. IMO, the goal for any novice should be to become an expert. you don't need to win to accomplish that. unfortunately, some like to "poach" the novice class championships, which could leads to an arms race there and driving new racers out of the novice classes.

i dunno, I have opinions on this stuff partly because im surprised by the mindset of other people. given that Im a back marker in MA, its somewhat obvious that id rather be a small fish in a big pond than a big fish in a small pond. ive thought that way since my first laps on the track, to my first novice race, to now. some people think the opposite and I don't understand why :laughing.

One other thing. Along with that experience/points.
You have to go and do a race or more with an AMA sanctioned club, which AFM is not. It has to be recent as well, cant be several years ago. Ken Saillant is the contact with AMA regarding this stuff if anybodys interested.

 

[Holeshot]

Aaron, Kevin Crowther is the AMA contact for AFM.

 

[scratchpad]

Aaron, Kevin Crowther is the AMA contact for AFM.

:thumbup Gotcha, when i did it it was Ken. They did introduce Kevin at the Sonoma riders meeting but i didnt catch what his job position was.

 

[stangmx13]

One other thing. Along with that experience/points.
You have to go and do a race or more with an AMA sanctioned club, which AFM is not. It has to be recent as well, cant be several years ago. Ken Saillant is the contact with AMA regarding this stuff if anybodys interested.

thats incorrect. the club must be recognized, but not necessarily sanctioned. the AFM is first on the list of recognized clubs.

also, there are procedures for riders that have experience outside those clubs, like for international riders. I was teammate to a Canadian rider a few years ago. he had to jump through some extra hoops to get an MA license. but it all got done.

 

[scratchpad]

thats incorrect. the club must be recognized, but not necessarily sanctioned. the AFM is first on the list of recognized clubs.

also, there are procedures for riders that have experience outside those clubs, like for international riders. I was teammate to a Canadian rider a few years ago. he had to jump through some extra hoops to get an MA license. but it all got done.

It was 100% exactly my situation and exactly what was explained to me by Ken when I was applying for a MA race license for 2018. I had plenty of AFM experience from 05-07 and 13 to present plus WERA national races from 06-07’ and some CVMA rounds. They wouldn’t grant it unless I went and raced with an AMA sanctioned club. Sent my results in immediately and he granted it right away. Whether it was incorrect, I don’t know.