Track skills vs Street skills

Eric in Davis

Well-known member
Reading all the replies I have the following observations:

1) People who have not been on the track much say that any track skills can also be learned on the street, and that track skills don't apply to street scenarios

2) People who have been on the track a lot say the opposite.

How can someone who doesn't have extensive track experience comment on whether or not those skills help on the street :confused That would be like me trying to argue that supermotard experience (which I have none of) doesn't improve your road-racing.
 

Alexey

Hello, world!
Not trying to be a know-it-all, but I'd like to offer my 2 cents because I've done different kinds of street riding as well as different kinds of track riding.

I started out on 2 wheels as a bicyclist in NYC. I rode all over town, from horse trails in parks to zigzagging my way through cab traffic in Manhattan. That taught me, among other things, how to ride in very aggressive city traffic. It was 85% situational awareness and 15% bicycle control.

I then got my first motorcycle: a Seca II. City riding became a much smaller headache. I was able to apply everything I knew from cycling to the motorcycle with the exception of dealing with a heavier machine. But at the same time I had acceleration on tap and the whole thing just felt way easier.

My glaring weakness was hard braking in the dry -- I was still trying to use both brakes and getting myself sidways like I always did on the bicycle. Needless to say, that was a bad idea at higher speeds. I did however manage to save a few unintentional slides, including front wheel lock-ups that I don't think I would have been able to save without the quick reactions and constant state of high alert learned from ever-changing city traffic.

I then moved on to my first sportbike: an F3. Contrary to what I thought might happen, I felt way more comfortable on it in all aspects of riding. And of course, I immediately started doing squiddly things on the street, including going into the hills to "practice".

Mercifully, someone told me to go and check out a trackday. My first exposure to the track was cornerworking. And I gotta tell ya -- I learned a ton. Just from watching bikes go by, a number of things became apparent:
  • I was not the fastest rider in the world
  • smoothness leads to speed
  • speed and safety can be attained from a similar set of skills

I signed up and did my first trackday. Despite highsiding at the end of the day on cold tires, I learned more about bike control than I did my entire squiddly riding career up to that point. The biggest things I tapped into was how to use my eyes and how to use my body. It was like I had been living in a small cramped room for years and suddenly someone opened a door to the outside -- the biggest thing I learned was how little I actually knew.

I then took up some Keith Code books and hit more trackdays, trying to apply everything I digested from the books. It was definitely addictive -- every time I was out-there, I came away with huge improvements. And the best part was that the better I did, the slower it felt. I became calm and calculating while riding as opposed to "pushing" and gritting my teeth.

I decided it was high time I tried to compete. By that point I had converted the F3 to 100% track and only rode street on occasion on borrowed bikes. When I did that, I was both more freaked out by all the unpredictable crap going on around me, and at the same time more collected mentally. I had 2 close calls caused by cars pulling into my path that I got out of through extra-quick countersteering. I knew that without my still limited track experience, I would have tried brakes and most likely gotten seriously hurt or worse in both situations. The cool thing was that in both cases I did the right thing without thinking. Still, those experiences made me even more hesitant to ride street.

A few years of racing in sunny CA followed that with occasional dabbling in street riding. I kind of enjoyed riding through SF, mostly because it was so different from the track and reminded me of "the good old days". Jumping a sportbike through intersections going up the SF hills was definitely the dog's bollocks as they say. Thinking back, I should have probably gotten myself a motard.

After some more on-and-off racing and even more sparse street riding, I ended up on the east coast in the burbs. I fixed up a junky EX500 for the street and got an F4i for racing. Riding the EX on local roads was the first time I truly enjoyed competent street riding with the ego as well as the traffic dangers mostly in check. I was definitely a lot more in control of how much I wanted to push the envelope at any given moment, something I was blissfully unaware of when I was trying to be a hero on the F3 in the hills. I do admit that the point of the racer's overconfidence holds true. I never bothered to get new tires of the EX, which had a nice square bald piece of rubber you'd be hard pressed to call a tire on the back. In the rain, things were definitely dicey and I was basically unnecessarily taking chances. I'm not doing that anymore.

I had one interesting experience on that bike that kinda took me full circle. Last year I rode it down to NYC and hit Manhattan traffic on the highway and in the streets at the peak of afternoon rush hour. My crazy-close street riding skills were a bit rusty at that point. But I dug deep and remembered most of it getting there in one piece and kind of having fun by then.

So after all the rambling, what's the point? I think part of the confusion about track and street skills overlap is that it's all about what any one individual is lacking. Undoubtedly it's possible to be a pro in any niche environment and be a poor rider in others (the late great Joey Dunlop never achieved greatness as a closed circuit racer). And undoubtedly there are ways to leverage what you know as you adapt to new situations. When I moved to CA, even going from east coast tracks to west coast tracks was a bit of a shock to the system. But I'd say the more one knows, the better one is prepared for whatever new challenges await, in riding and in life in general. I think the most important thing is to understand your own limitations and learn how to learn. Remember, we're all still learning to ride!
 
ontherearwheel. I have never done an track day. But I've wanted to for a while now. I must say that I just learned a lot just reading your thread. Like a lot of other people, I thought that the track would make me a much better rider. And I don't think that it would hurt. But after reading your thread I have a whole new perspective on the subject.
 

Kensaku

Well-known member
'03R6Rider said:
ontherearwheel. I have never done an track day. But I've wanted to for a while now. I must say that I just learned a lot just reading your thread. Like a lot of other people, I thought that the track would make me a much better rider. And I don't think that it would hurt. But after reading your thread I have a whole new perspective on the subject.

We educate minds and hearts to change the world.

http://www.usfca.edu/
 

}Dragon{

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ ︵ ╯(°□° ╯)
Eric in Davis said:
Reading all the replies I have the following observations:

1) People who have not been on the track much say that any track skills can also be learned on the street, and that track skills don't apply to street scenarios

2) People who have been on the track a lot say the opposite.

How can someone who doesn't have extensive track experience comment on whether or not those skills help on the street :confused That would be like me trying to argue that supermotard experience (which I have none of) doesn't improve your road-racing.

My point is: will the track make the average street rider better/safer?

It REALLY depends on the rider. An asshat is an asshat. There are people out there who have done tons of trackdays and they are NOT learning anything from it (as in getting faster and/or learning bike handling skills). There are some folks that are not teachable, like Mola Ram. :laughing

Wanna make yourself a better rider; learn a lil dirt, learn a lil track, learn a lil supermoto, and remember what your first ride was on two wheels- the bicycle.

Am I saying, "Don't go to the track"? Hell NO! Get out there, have fun and learn :thumbup Does it make you a better rider? It depends on YOU the rider.
 

Kensaku

Well-known member
}Dragon{ said:
My point is: will the track make the average street rider better/safer?

It REALLY depends on the rider. An asshat is an asshat. There are people out there who have done tons of trackdays and they are NOT learning anything from it (as in getting faster and/or learning bike handling skills). There are some folks that are not teachable, like Mola Ram. :laughing

Wanna make yourself a better rider; learn a lil dirt, learn a lil track, learn a lil supermoto, and remember what your first ride was on two wheels- the bicycle.

Am I saying, "Don't go to the track"? Hell NO! Get out there, have fun and learn :thumbup Does it make you a better rider? It depends on YOU the rider.

+1

I think that the track will make any rider better at controlling their machine.

I also think the track will make said asshat rider think s/he's better...
 

scalvert

Well-known member
Matt Lai's points line up well with mine. Certainly after being on track I feel much less motivated to ride aggressively since I left all the go fast on the track. Also, my time on track has very finely honed my ability to make accurate and quick decisions in the middle of "oh shit" moments.

The nature of track riding is such that you're likely to have a much higher ratio of "oh shit" to "splat" occurances than you do on the street. That leads to fear being a much more frequent (if still unwanted) passenger on my track bike than my street bike. "Oh shit" moments correspond closely to moments when a riding situation demands skills that you are not confident in. Hundreds of hours pushing back my limits have made me much more familiar with the various flavors of unconfident "oh shit" moments. It turns out that most of the time fear sets in well before your skills are actually overtaxed (at least for me). Knowing this has greatly increased my motivation and ability to reach deep within my experience and courage and dig out responses that are nominally beyond my abilities.

This fear and limitation management experience was earned with a much much reduced cost of risk than one would endure to learn the same skills on the street. My personal belief is that riding well is 95% about focus and emotional control. Considering how much my focus and emotion control skills have developed on the track I have to conclude that the track experience is a huge asset on the road.

Of course there are lessons from the road that are not taught on the racetrack. In my mind they boil down to 1) anticipation of cagers, 2) keeping focus in extreme weather, 3) cop management. Just like street riding didn't teach me how to mount a rear wheel in 5 minutes, there is application specific knowledge in every area of riding. Most of the time bikes are bikes and riding is riding. Being good in one area brings you up in every other.
 

Holeshot

Super Moderator
Staff member
I'm not sure why people are equating "riding in traffic" or "anticpating where a car might pull out" a skill. That's actually under the whole "experience" category. It's the same as knowing what to do when a yellow flag comes out. It's experience, not a skill. A skill is determined by something that controls the motorcycle better. Let's get the bullshit out of this conversation right away: a skill is not "anticipating" anything. It's actual control on the bike.

Ok, now, as Christofu said, plenty of skills can be learned on the street that can be learned on the track, albeit with much less of a safety margin. It's why we keep reading about people stuffing bikes under mini vans on highway 9 and throwing out one of those shitty little pixelated roses in memory. But overall, there's just gonna be alot of holes in a street education for the most part. I can't agree that avoiding traffic is a real skill exclusive to street riders. I can agree that knowing how to best traverse slick or muddy surfaces is something of a skill, but best learned on the dirt as well.

ontherearwheel, It seems you either knew everything you needed for your class racing or didn't aspire to do better. I can't imagine not learning anything racing.

This bullshit of thinking certain street situations allow someone to learn a highly specialized skill (like turning sharpley) is just smoke and mirrors. In reality, all of us with sport bikes are trying to go faster with more control. The almighty stopwatch seems to show the reality behind that goal. Form be damned, isn't that what sport bikers are trying to achieve or is there another measure of "skills" like backing into a parking spot, or something?
 

canyonrat

Veteran Knee Dragger
MrCrash907 said:
Can you summarize your view / opinion for me?

Street and track skill vary slightly, basically because they are different environments. Street riders are faster than track riders on the street, and track riders are faster than street riders on the track.

Cornering lines on the street vary based upon the corner. For example, a blind corner with a hidden gravel driveway could command a tight entry point with a wide middle while slowing. This would be to avoid possible unseen gravel on the inside of the corner. This would not be a good track line.

Also, spending time looking off the road for animals does not come ino play at the track.

There's also greater memorization of the longer roads and surfaces than track riders need to get involved with.

Mark
 

Alexey

Hello, world!
Holeshot said:
I'm not sure why people are equating "riding in traffic" or "anticpating where a car might pull out" a skill. That's actually under the whole "experience" category. It's the same as knowing what to do when a yellow flag comes out. It's experience, not a skill. A skill is determined by something that controls the motorcycle better. Let's get the bullshit out of this conversation right away: a skill is not "anticipating" anything. It's actual control on the bike.
I disagree. Certain street-specific things you mentioned are skills. Only they're usually learned from experience because at this time there's no controlled environment to hone them in. The best such environment I could think of would be a computer similulator that creates random unexpected situations in virtual traffic one has to respond to. The way it would be controlled is via management of denseness of traffic and the difficulty of the unexpected.

I once read a theory on what intuition was. It offered that intuition is nothing more than an incredibly complex set of experiential subconscious reflexes that work behind the scenes and contribute to our conscious thinking process. An example was given of a security guard checking ID's. There are and will continue to be many many cases of guards looking at what appears to be a perfectly valid document and yet get that weird feeling that something's not right. If they listen to that inner voice, they often discover that indeed there was a fake ID that was all but impossible to catch with a naked eye. So they chalk it up to intuition. But in reality, they did actually register a few minute signs that didn't align well with what they've seen before countless times.

It boils down to 2 sets of skill division: conscious vs subconscious and learned in controlled environments vs experiential. At the end of the day, it's better to have your skills consciously understood, but operating on a subconscious level and it makes no difference if you acquired them through experience or in a "lab". However, it's obvious of course that most skills are better learned in some kind of a lab than through what is essentially natural selection of us as a 2-wheeled species.
 

Climber

Well-known member
Holeshot said:
I'm not sure why people are equating "riding in traffic" or "anticpating where a car might pull out" a skill. That's actually under the whole "experience" category. It's the same as knowing what to do when a yellow flag comes out. It's experience, not a skill. A skill is determined by something that controls the motorcycle better. Let's get the bullshit out of this conversation right away: a skill is not "anticipating" anything. It's actual control on the bike.
I have to disagree with you on this.

Developing the skill to read the traffic is fully as much of a skill as handling the bike. I don't understand how you can just say that it's 'experience'. :wtf

For some of us, many hours of hard work and conscious thought has gone into developing the skills to read traffic as an organism and to develop the skills to recognize and categorize potential threats and to first consciously then sub-consciously adjust our riding line through positions of least vulnerability throughout our entire ride.
 

budbandit

Well-known member
HS, hate to break it to you buddy but track riding is just one aspect of being a well rounded rider. In a race across London, or hell, even downtown SF, between even a superlative track rider and a mediocre courier, my money would be on the courier. Intense urban work is vastly different from track work and uses different skills and requires different ways of thinking. FWIW the level of splitting (or filtering) here is pretty weak compared with Japan, where most riders start with 50cc scooters and become comfortable with clearances measured in milimeters. I imagine it is the same compared with Europe as well.
 

Enchanter

Ghost in The Machine
Staff member
Learning HOW (physical) to operate the controls is just as much a skill as knowing WHEN (mental) to operate them. Street or Track, it makes no difference.

Some of you track focused peeps are trying to say that riding in traffic isn't a skill? Huh? Mental processing of the situation around you isn't a skill on the street? What? Is mental processing only a skill on the track? People that use their heads more than their hands doing something are less skilled? Give me a break. Is Stephan Hawking less skilled or more skilled than you? I'd guess that he is less skilled in one area but more skilled in another.
 
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*VillageIdiot*

"and a step to the right"
budbandit said:
HS, hate to break it to you buddy but track riding is just one aspect of being a well rounded rider.
I think thats the point of the thread Jason. Overall I think what everyone is trying to say if you remove the labels is that they are complimentary skills. I've ridden with both Mike and Berto both of them are extraordinary riders (keeping in mind I rode with them on the street and learned a ton from them) in their own right. I'm going to go ahead and assume the same from you.

In short, we all love our sport. We all work hard and are passionate in improving devoloping and excelling. Mike is trying to show the complimentary nature of track riding to street riding. I don't think anyone is attempting to say "I'm better than you", albeit I've come across amateur racers who think that.

Somebody once said something on here that was a wonderful quote IMO "People go to the track to excell".

Some of you folks are forgetting the purpose of this thread. Or y'all just want to argue. Even the typical n00b typically has done extensive research (in their mind) on their machine and our beloved sport.

Lets throw the us vs. them mentality away and lets get back to constructive information. The argument shouldn't be over street and track especially amongst the veterans. The "discussion" (which this was intended to be) should be about the complimentary nature of the two and how to become a well balanced, or "skilled" (this term is starting to annoy me as well) rider.

I hate hearing about this barrier of street and track. I know for a fact Berto, Mike, Ken, Mario and everyone else here is attempting to provide an outlet for discussion. Albeit I was unimpressed by Canyon "JEDI"'s toss to an old thread which IMO did not cover the subject well enough for the layman.

Edit: I have never personally ridden with CanyonRat, but his postings leads in regards to some supernatural skill and comic book fantasy in regards to being a "CanyonDancer". In truth, I myself am a canyon rider so is Mike, so is Berto. But I can say this much as biased as I can be towards a canyon by no means do I think it's the "END ALL" to riding. If I offended you canyon rat my apologies. I just can't grasp what concept you're trying to get across but I do think you are broadening the social Gap and perpetuating this stupid "Us Vs Them" mentality.


~ Jason
 
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ALANRIDER7

MeowMeowMeow
budbandit said:
HS, hate to break it to you buddy but track riding is just one aspect of being a well rounded rider. In a race across London, or hell, even downtown SF, between even a superlative track rider and a mediocre courier, my money would be on the courier. Intense urban work is vastly different from track work and uses different skills and requires different ways of thinking. FWIW the level of splitting (or filtering) here is pretty weak compared with Japan, where most riders start with 50cc scooters and become comfortable with clearances measured in milimeters. I imagine it is the same compared with Europe as well.

You're comparing apples and oranges. The street is chaos. The track offers a controlled environment, allowing focus on speed and skill. The amount of mental energy you spend looking for the idiot cage drivers on the streets can be utilized to better focus on corner entry/exit speed on the track.

In a race across London, both riders could be easily taken out by a cellphone talking soccermom.
 

ontherearwheel

Well-known member
Like I wrote, I didn't learn anything new. The track just let me expand on the skill set I had already learned riding on the street.

Yes, riding in traffic on the street, lane splitting helped me when I was in a pack on the track, why cause I already had alot of experince in close quarters in traffic, so it didn't brother lie it would those that had less experince in close quarters.

Oh I did, say I learned one thing........there are assholes on the street and on the track.

Based on your snipe at me, it appears if you ain't at the front you don't know shit.........an attitude that runs through the AFM.
 
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