Track skills vs Street skills

[doubleottcrash]

Sorry about the spelling.
In a hurry.

 

[Climber]

I think that track time in most cases has a positive impact in a riders safety on the street and will generally help to develop skills and awareness that will go a long way towards ensuring that they will come home every day on two wheels.

But, there are also skills developed on the street that aren't learned on the track and have to do with the factors that don't exist on the track. It's these skills that when combined with the skills developed on the track will make riders complete and safe street riders.

 

[christofu]

+1

While I do agree that track skills improve my overall control of a motorcycle, the track isn't going to train me on things not found on the track, half of which has nothing to do with control...just bad luck.

Gonna have to disagree with you there. Skills learnt on the track put more into your bag of skills. So, when that 'bad luck' happens to you would you rather have more skills to call on, or less?

I'd rather go for more.

Of course, there is a caveat to my stance on this, which has been brought up by doubleottcrash... if you go to the track with the desire to learn to be a better rider then the resulting increase in control skills is what I call 'track skills'. Skills that you can still get through street riding, it will just take longer and be more dangerous to get them.

If you go to the track with the goal of just goin' as fuckin' fast as you can the whole time, with no desire to learn anything except how big your dick is (isn't) then yes, you've been to the track, but no, you haven't picked up any 'track skills'. In fact, you probably should just kick your bike over in your driveway now rather than wasting your own time and the time of the organizer.

 

[Traq]

Track practice is to streetriding as gun range practice is to going to war. In other words, knowing the traction limits of racing slicks on ideal surfaces in ideal conditions doesn't really mean much to the real world.

 

[christofu]

Track practice is to streetriding as gun range practice is to going to war. In other words, knowing the traction limits of racing slicks on ideal surfaces in ideal conditions doesn't really mean much to the real world.

And yet when the helicopter drops me off at the front line, I'm pretty sure I'd like to have some idea how to use my weapon.

 

[Kensaku]

Gonna have to disagree with you there. Skills learnt on the track put more into your bag of skills. So, when that 'bad luck' happens to you would you rather have more skills to call on, or less?

I'd rather go for more.

Of course, there is a caveat to my stance on this, which has been brought up by doubleottcrash... if you go to the track with the desire to learn to be a better rider then the resulting increase in control skills is what I call 'track skills'. Skills that you can still get through street riding, it will just take longer and be more dangerous to get them.

No, I agree with you but I'm saying there are many, many variables found on the street that go beyond bike control and the track just doesn't prepare you for that kind of situation. For example, a drunk driver coming up driving 100mph down the highway and rear-ending you before you have time to react. Sure, skills learned on the track give you a better sense of how to manuveur a bike more competently to avoid such a collision, but sometimes there's nothing you can do...

(see my post after the post you quoted).

 

[windex]

My .02 cents.

All riding make the rider better in those 'Oh shit' moments. A few quick things.

Track- Controlled environment to learn the limits of your bike and what they feel like.

Street- Being able to read traffic and the road(sign of a driveway or chance of dirt from a hillside).

Dirt- How to slide a bike when it loses traction and how to crash with little injury.

 

[MrCrash]

Spending alot of time on the track is probably like getting a significant CPU upgrade

Excellent analogy!

On the track your not going to come across wet railroad tracks at 65mph while leaning.

I'm not sure what you're insinuating by this. This is just common sense for any rider, street or track.

There's one AFM racer who will remain anoynmous who thinks he's an "expert" street rider because of his AFM status. What does he do this past week? Goes and crashes on the street...

Is he an expert AFM racer? Not that it means a whole lot, as it just signifies that he remained upright for six weekends.

What track riding has taught me is to give myself a large margin of error to avoid "bad luck" situations. Whenever I have a mishap, big or small, I try to evaluate my riding before pointing fingers at forces of nature.

Likewise. This is exactly why some fast street riders will lose some racers at an "A" street pace on public roads. Most of the more experienced racers I know don't want to give up that margin.

Track practice is to streetriding as gun range practice is to going to war. In other words, knowing the traction limits of racing slicks on ideal surfaces in ideal conditions doesn't really mean much to the real world.

Maybe not, but after bringing cold tires up to temperature over countless trackdays and race weekends, experienced racers will have a pretty good idea if the traction is there when they need it. Their racing experience will probably allow them to make full use of the traction that is available. And when they lose it, they'll have a better chance of regaining it than someone who doesn't have that skill.

 

[Wrong Way]

I have almost exclusively ridden on the street. Having only gone to a few track days, I am very busy with the basics when I do go. It seems odd to spend many years riding and then something as simple as changing the environment, from street to the track, would cause one to take steps back just to participate. Well, there were things I was doing wrong.

Hopefully you keep learning, but what the track did for me was a huge benefit to my skills. It forces you to participate in a focused way. After all the years I spent riding on the street, I finally learned some skills that are essential to riding anywhere. I learned these skills by going to the track.

And thanks to all that have helped me when I was out there.

 

[Traq]

Maybe not, but after bringing cold tires up to temperature over countless trackdays and race weekends, experienced racers will have a pretty good idea if the traction is there when they need it.

Bringing tires up to temperature is not restricted to the track.

Their racing experience will probably allow them to make full use of the traction that is available. And when they lose it, they'll have a better chance of regaining it than someone who doesn't have that skill.

Maybe when they break it loose due to overacceleration or braking. But you break it loose on the road for a lot more reasons than that on the street. Gravel, leaves, wet pavement, traffic stripes, oil/antifreeze/any random liquid, bad cracked up/potholed pavement, etc. Perhaps the manner of recovery is the same despite the reason for loss coming from outside the rider's inputs, but the experience to not have it happen in the first place doesn't come from the track.


There are aspects of motorcycling (mostly just limits of rider and machine) that you can learn safely on the track, sure, but those aspects can all be learned on the street. However, there are innumerable aspects of street riding that are impossible to learn on the track. I don't know how to safety wire my bike up, but I do know when to stand on the pegs so my nuts don't get smashed by that bump in the #1 lane on EB 24 at Orinda.

 

[NoGall]

I have almost exclusively ridden on the street. Having only gone to a few track days, I am very busy with the basics when I do go. It seems odd to spend many years riding and then something as simple as changing the environment, from street to the track, would cause one to take steps back just to participate. Well, there were things I was doing wrong.

Hopefully you keep learning, but what the track did for me was a huge benefit to my skills. It forces you to participate in a focused way. After all the years I spent riding on the street, I finally learned some skills that are essential to riding anywhere. I learned these skills by going to the track.

And thanks to all that have helped me when I was out there.

+1

This is coming from an ex- anti- "monkies going around a circle".

 

[Robert R1]

Bringing tires up to temperature is not restricted to the track.



Maybe when they break it loose due to overacceleration or braking. But you break it loose on the road for a lot more reasons than that on the street. Gravel, leaves, wet pavement, traffic stripes, oil/antifreeze/any random liquid, bad cracked up/potholed pavement, etc. Perhaps the manner of recovery is the same despite the reason for loss coming from outside the rider's inputs, but the experience to not have it happen in the first place doesn't come from the track.


There are aspects of motorcycling (mostly just limits of rider and machine) that you can learn safely on the track, sure, but those aspects can all be learned on the street. However, there are innumerable aspects of street riding that are impossible to learn on the track. I don't know how to safety wire my bike up, but I do know when to stand on the pegs so my nuts don't get smashed by that bump in the #1 lane on EB 24 at Orinda.

What street skills can't be learned at the track? I'm curious because the end result you're looking for is confidence in yourself, your bike and your tires. In a controlled enviornment at the track you approach these results at a much faster pace and generally are safer doing it. During your time at the track you'll likely encounter, oil, dirt and other debris on the track. Same as getting cut off, running wide, traction slip. All of which are still in a safer, more controlled enviornment.

An expert track rider has much better control and thus they're much better prepared in a quick reaction incident than someone who has not truly explored their or the bikes limits. There's plenty of such big bumps on the track and the procedure is still the same. What you're describing is your familiarity with travel routes due to repition. One a general basis, the track rider is much better prepared.

 

[Matt.Lai]

Clubracing has improved my ability to manage panic while on the street. Feanor hit upon this earlier and it is true for me. Racing is chock full of panic - reacting to a fucked up situation occurs more often during a race than it does on the street. My "panic muscle," therefore, is well tuned and able to react when presented with an unexpected obstacle while street riding.

The second and more important effect is that I lose my sense of urgency on the street if I am racing regularly. I find that the sensation of riding on the street cannot match the g-forces experienced at the track, so I just slow down and enjoy the ride. Conversely, if I do not go racing for a certain period of time, I 'jones' for sensation and start to ride a bit fast for conditions on the street. Racing is, therefore, making my overall motorcycle experience measurably safer. Go figure!

YMMV.

-Matt

 

[Kensaku]

Is he an expert AFM racer? Not that it means a whole lot, as it just signifies that he remained upright for six weekends.

Yes, and a cocky one at that. I suppose you're right, but the irony is too much for me to handle, especially when I see the things he says...PM me if you want to know more. :laughing

 

[Traq]

What street skills can't be learned at the track?

The obvious first thing would be dealing with traffic composed of all kinds of different vehicles that are going every which way at various speeds. When's the last time someone was killed at the track because of an ovloV turning left into a minimart? Never? Yea.

 

[Robert R1]

rydah1: hehehe i want to paint out a scenario

rydah1: where you and i, "former" racers, are riding on the street

rydah1: "hey, great race last weekend robert. you did really well - did you finish top 10?"

rydah1: "yeah man . and i set my best time ever, breaking into the 1:59s at Thunderh OH MY GOD WHAT IS THAT?!?!?! THAT BLACK STUFF ON THE ROAD OH MY GOD"

rydah1: "ROBERT I DON'T KNOW I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THAT BEFORE HOLY SHIT WHAT SHOULD WE DO OH FUUUUUUUUUUUUCK IF ONLY I RODE ON THE STREEEET OH SHIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTT"

rydah1: *as we sail off of grizzly peak at the sight of a slight oil spill)

robertr1: hahahaahahahaahahah come on! let me copy/paste this convo into a post

 

[ryanb]

Bringing tires up to temperature is not restricted to the track.

Agreed. Cold tires suck everywhere!

Maybe when they break it loose due to overacceleration or braking. But you break it loose on the road for a lot more reasons than that on the street. Gravel, leaves, wet pavement, traffic stripes, oil/antifreeze/any random liquid, bad cracked up/potholed pavement, etc.

First of all, the racetrack is not always a pristine environment, far from it. There are damp patches in the morning, dirt from the car club that was there the day before, fresh pavement patches that are 1" lower than the surrounding tarmac, blown bike oiling the track, bumps in a fast corner, the list goes on and on.

The primary difference is predictability....ie if you saw dirt in T1 it's most likely going to be there the next 10 laps you take. The predictability aspect of track riding is what lets you push past those sight-line limits that keep things sedated on the street.


Perhaps the manner of recovery is the same despite the reason for loss coming from outside the rider's inputs, but the experience to not have it happen in the first place doesn't come from the track.

I would agree that *some* aspects of situational awareness when street riding cannot be taught on a racetrack. Traffic behavior, watching for telltale signs that someone will turn left in front of you, all that stuff. It turns you into a student of human behavior (read: jackasses behind steering wheels) more than anything else

However, I'd say most of the skills that a rider can directly influence (namely, the ones that apply to their own riding) can come from street riding, but to truly push things and find the edge of the envelope on the street is stupid. A racetrack is the only place to properly learn to ride a modern sportbike. Honestly, I think the people that can control a bike best are veteran dirt bike riders. Nothing else teaches you control of 2 wheels like a dirtbike. Them guys are crazy.


There are aspects of motorcycling (mostly just limits of rider and machine) that you can learn safely on the track, sure, but those aspects can all be learned on the street.

I strongly disagree. To even try to approach the limits of your machine, let alone your personal riding skills limits, on the street, is ludicrous. It's a one-way trip to the emergency room. Please tell me you dont really think Joe Rider can safely reach the limits of his shiny new gsx-r1000 on some twisty backroad.


However, there are innumerable aspects of street riding that are impossible to learn on the track. I don't know how to safety wire my bike up, but I do know when to stand on the pegs so my nuts don't get smashed by that bump in the #1 lane on EB 24 at Orinda.

The only major aspects of street riding that you cant learn on a track is situation awareness in traffic and maybe local knowledge of the road you're riding on (hidden driveways, etc). Any riding skill that can be learned on the street, can be learned and honed to a far greater degree on a racetrack.

-Ryan

 

[christofu]

Yes, and a cocky one at that. I suppose you're right, but the irony is too much for me to handle, especially when I see the things he says...PM me if you want to know more. :laughing

Ooh! Is it me? Is it? Huh? Huh? Is it?

 

[Kensaku]

Ooh! Is it me? Is it? Huh? Huh? Is it?

:shhh

You are too connected in this matter. Go away!

 

[canyonrat]

I can't stomach to read this.

We had a week long thread about this subject back in Nov. 2005. It got very heated but well mannered. Read it if you like, it takes a couple of hours...

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=144882