Skill is overrated

[louemc]

You make a good judgement call... and yet you don't have the skills to execute...what happens?

If You don't know what your skills are, then there aren't any good judgement calls.

When You learn how to ride a bike, you will be using judgement and skills, hand in hand, they depend on each other. They have to Know each other. Then safe riding gets done.

(I think I'm supporting your post)


I do know of riders that could ride real well (sponsored racing and all) but, had no judgement on the public road. One t-boned a car that was turning into their own driveway. The biker was doing about 130 MPH.

 

[DataDan]

You make a good judgement call... and yet you don't have the skills to execute...what happens?

Your hypothetical is self-contradictory. Attempting something you don't have the skills to execute is bad judgment.

 

[Dr. Evil]

You make a good judgement call... and yet you don't have the skills to execute...what happens?

It's academic. If you get yourself into a situation where you make a theoretically right decision but do not have the means to carry it out, you (almost certainly) made a bad judgment call earlier.

 

[kojakbloke]

Your hypothetical is self-contradictory. Attempting something you don't have the skills to execute is bad judgment.

Welcome to what Budda refers to as "enlightenment" Datadan...

They cannot exist without each other.

 

[kojakbloke]

You want to provide one example of that "thought?"

You are riding on a secondary road through some undulating country. It is a sunny day with no wind.

Up ahead, you see a left hander rated at 45 miles per hour (signage). You pick your turn point, look through the turn and enter at the recommended speed.

Half-way through the turn you hit some water and gravel that has spilled on to the roadway...


(So where does judgement end and skill take over...or indeed are they fused together?)

 

[Dr. Evil]

Any turn rated for 45 mph would be pretty shallow, and you'd almost certainly be able to see crud in the road.

 

[Carlo]

You're completely missing Dan's point.
He is not "pitting" skill and judgement as "rivals".

He's saying that skill without good judgement is meaningless.
Witness the many threads on this forum and elsewhere about very, very competent riders (Owns9 comes immediately to mind) who payed the price for very poor judgement in spite of prodigious skills. No amount of skill is going to save you if you habitually cross the center line on highway 9.

Dan's contention that a less competent rider who excersizes good judgement (riding within his ability) will be less likely to crash than a competent rider who excersizes bad judgement (riding on the street like he's on a track) isn't "pitting" judgement against skill, it's saying that skill without good judgement is meaningless.

I have several friends who I've known for many years, who have never crashed on a public road after 20 or more years of riding. These guys didn't get there "by accident". They managed to do it by excersizing good judgement while they were learning to ride, then continuing to excersize good judgement after they achieved competency at controlling their motorcycles.

One more thing; there's nothing "dumb" about a thread that makes us think, even if we don't agree with the OP's idea.
(one of the things I learned while going around in circles with Julian Solos, Dan!)

Absolutely not agreeing with you because you are pitting them as rivals.

They are yin and yang.

Here's a thought for you...

You make a good judgement call... and yet you don't have the skills to execute...what happens?

Once again dumb thread.

 

[Carlo]

Any turn rated for 45 mph would be pretty shallow, and you'd almost certainly be able to see crud in the road.

I've seen lots of turns in heavily forested areas, or in canyons which were marked at 45, but I couldn't see the entire turn.
The only time you can push the limit of your riding skill safely is if you can see the entire turn before you enter it. I'm not going to claim that you're doomed if you enter any turn you can't see through at a high speed, but if one turn in every 100 has something unpredictable in it, do you want to take a chance?

 

[louemc]

You are riding on a secondary road through some undulating country. It is a sunny day with no wind.

Up ahead, you see a left hander rated at 45 miles per hour (signage). You pick your turn point, look through the turn and enter at the recommended speed.

Half-way through the turn you hit some water and gravel that has spilled on to the roadway...

You don't just "hit some water or gravel" (or both). There is that little matter of looking (also called sight line, the distance you can see).

Is this a matter of being unconscous? Not having a clue about a safe speed given the sight line distance? Not looking at the road?

The judgement skill blend starts in a basic school like MSF and practice of what was taught, in a safe place like and empty parking lot, till there is confidence to practice on empty (or slow and empty enough) streets, and then move into more demanding public street/road/ highway use.

If someone gets to the twisties and the blind corners and nastier things to hit, off the road, and drop offs and rock walls and no guard rails and no center lines, and they do this before they learn how to tell their bike how to do what they want it to do, And they don't know what has to be done, to tell their bike to do it.

Then.... the judgement and the skill... isn't there. So right isn't going to happen. Or can't be counted on happening.


Even on a nice day... it would be a cold day in Hell, when I'm oblivious to the conditions that determine my speed, and I go by a sign, saying what my speed can be. (or be limited to)

 

[Aluisious]

You are riding on a secondary road through some undulating country. It is a sunny day with no wind.

Up ahead, you see a left hander rated at 45 miles per hour (signage). You pick your turn point, look through the turn and enter at the recommended speed.

Half-way through the turn you hit some water and gravel that has spilled on to the roadway...


(So where does judgement end and skill take over...or indeed are they fused together?)

That really has nothing to do with what DataDan was talking about.

You should contemplate more and argue less.

 

[GAJ]

One more thing; there's nothing "dumb" about a thread that makes us think, even if we don't agree with the OP's idea.

:thumbup

 

[Carlo]

But also understand in the end, it boils down to luck. Make no mistake this is a very dangerous sport. Which is why I say I rather be lucky than skilled.

While we're pretty much on the same side in this discussion, I take exception to the above comment.
Riding a motorcycle, or doing any other activity which involves risk of major injury or death as a result of an error in judgement, is a matter of "risk management".

We know that a good 50% of all fatal motorcycle crashes are the result of excessive speed and/or alchohol consumption. Don't drink and ride, and keep your speed to a reasonable level, and you've doubled your chances of survival.
There are numerous other factors (most of which are addressed by the MSF training), that will improve your odds of not crashing. The risks can't be managed 100% for any activity, but the accumulation of all the risk management techniques will reduce the effective risk to close enough to zero that a good rider who excersizes good judgement can ride without fear of crashing.

You may actually have a greater risk of slipping in the shower and hitting your head than you do of crashing your motorcycle, provided you excersize every risk management trick and technique available.
I've already mentioned once in this thread that I have several good friends who I ride with regularly who have never crashed on a public road, most of these guys have been riding since the early 70's, and none of them has less than 20 years experience.

Luck is primarily a factor for inexperienced riders. I was very lucky to have survived the four crashes I was involved in during the first 10 years of my -as of this summer- 40 year riding career. After that, it was a combination of acquired skill, experience, and reasonably good judgement. I've been in countless situations since my last crash which as a new rider, I wouldn't have been able to ride out of. This wasn't luck; in situations involving cars, I was able to anticipate a bonehead move, and was ready for it; in situations involving road conditions (water, dirt, obstacles, animals) I was riding with enough of a safety margin to spot the thread and avoid it. Luck had nothing to do with any of those.

I can't say luck never played a part, but I can say that if it was entirely due to luck, I must be one of the luckiest people around, and most of my riding friends (who all have similar no-recent-crash records to me) must also be lucky.

 

[GAJ]

To be a truly skilled street rider you have to use good judgment on every ride.

To be honest I think I may have slowed down over the years in the tighter twisties as I've really started to focus on the Vanishing Point technique.

 

[kojakbloke]

A bit harsh on "dumb"....sorry Datadan...I was only paraphrasing...

However-----

Skills and judgement deserve equality.

Just ask Sully.

By the way you should read his resume

 

[Misti]

If you're arguing that skill and judgment are different, you're agreeing with me. One can be skilled--that is, able to make the motorcycle do extraordinary things--but lack judgment--that is, know when and where to use that skill safely.

Lacking good judgment, even a highly skilled rider can get into serious trouble. And in fact they do, as shown in examples in this thread.

OTOH, a less skilled rider with good judgment can avoid trouble by riding within his abilities.

I agree with this. Skill and Judgement are different and you can most certainly have one without the other. I get what DataDan is trying to say and I disagree that it is a stupid post. This thread was designed to get conversation started and that is exactly what it has done.

What I would be cautious about though is the title of the post and the implications it could have for people who misinterpret or misunderstand what is intended here. Skill is not "overrated". Having good riding skills is imperative in my opinion and the better your riding skills and the more often you work on improving them, the better your riding will be overall. Now you can still screw up your riding (even if you have incredible riding skills) by making poor choices and using bad judgement, but, the more skills you have available, the better you will be able to react to unexpected situations.

I consider myself to be pretty skilled rider and I have certainly used the skills I have acquired over the years to prevent some crashes that would have happened had I not know what to do or how to do it. For me, skill is UNDERRATED, in that too many riders I know, rely more on their "intuition", "riding experience", and "advice from friends" to get them home safe from a ride. They think nothing of spending big bucks on accessories for their bikes but turn their noses up at the cost of a riding school, track days, or personal training.

Skill alone is not enough to keep you safe but it is extremely important and something I work on improving each and every time I go out for a ride.

Cheers,
Misti

 

[Gary J]

Skill and Judgement are different and you can most certainly have one without the other.

The complementary formula needed for longevity in the sport of performance motorcycling (in my personal opinion, FWIW) is:

• - "SKILL": "Maximum number of the right tools in the toolbox"

• - "JUDGEMENT": "Having the intelligence and discipline to know when, and how, to use them"

As Misti said; a rider can have one without the other.

Unfortunately to do so is a sure recipe for failure. Failure in an unforgiving sport where the punishment for failure can be the most extreme of all possible outcomes. :rip

 

[Carlo]

The complementary formula needed for longevity in the sport of performance motorcycling (in my personal opinion, FWIW) is:

• - "SKILL": "Maximum number of the right tools in the toolbox"

• - "JUDGEMENT": "Having the intelligence to know when, and how, to use them"

As Misti said; a rider can have one without the other.

Unfortunately to do so is a sure recipe for failure. Failure in an unforgiving sport where the punishment for failure can be the most extreme of all possible outcomes. :rip

There's more to judgement than just knowing when and how to use the available skills.
A beginning rider with no skills is capable of getting through the early stages of acquiring skills by excersizing good judgement.
Judgement in this case meaning not how and when to apply particular skills, given that a new rider has very few of those, but simply not taking chances, riding conservatively and cautiously.

There's no doubt that acquired skill is a good thing, but Dan's original point was that it's not as important as good judgement (in all possible meanings of the word "judgement"), and as someone who has friends who managed to get through the learning years of motorcycling without crashing, I tend to agree; good judgement is more important than superior skill.

 

[louemc]

It's an extremely complex, and ever changing thing, we do.

What gets called Judgement, would be changing as the rider gains skills, and experiences.

Gaining skills is a change in the skill level.

As time goes by, there is a chance that a rider is changing bikes, and the bike work differently, allowing the riding to change.

The biker might even be learning that bike set-up (either learning how to do it, or having it done) makes their bike work better, another change.

The biker might get professional riding instruction (instead of trying to figure things out on their own, which is someone that doesn't know, being the teacher). Another change.

 

[DataDan]

I've unlocked this thread and deleted the off-topic argument that it had devolved to.

Please keep discussion on the topic of skill vs. judgment. Thanks.

 

[jjslye]

I think we might be using a word/meaning-set(s) that are a bit too simple or under defined to get at subject. Skill at what? Skill-sets consist of parts. Several people touched on 'judgement' which is linked to perception and reaction. Complacency is also a factor, and it's terrifying to snap to attention and realize that you just missed a great opportunity to crash and completely spaced it. Perception guides my skill set to produce outcomes that in this case are safer and more desirable most of the time.
At the core of skills and related...things, there seems to be a gut feeling sense of kinesthetic intelligence. Much in the way that flinching or freezing up can actually cause a mishap, guiding the moto "smoothly" seems to be the way to go.
When i ride, i am constantly tracking cars and staying out of the danger areas like blind spots and other close proximity zones. It's much like a video-game perception where everyone is either trying to hit you or at very least not see you...better to be hyper-alert than complacent. On the rare occasion that I drive a car, I understand how drivers are complacent most of the time...in this case it was a prius which made me want to take a nap at the wheel....