Skill is overrated

DataDan

Mama says he's bona fide
A highly capable rider is clinging to life after his second major street crash in 15 months, hopefully on his way to a full recovery. Last year another skilled rider nearly bought it at high speed in his second life-threatening street crash. And before that a similarly gifted and respected rider did lose his life when he wheelied into a parked car (as it turns out, while riding with a .26 BAC on a suspended license from a previous DUI conviction). But this isn't a thread for bashing injured riders; it's a cautionary one.

Some would suggest that the lesson in these tragic crashes is that "it can happen to anyone, anytime." You know: it's fate, and when your time is up, there's nothing you can do about it. I suggest a much different lesson: Skill is overrated as a way to prevent crashes. Instead, sometimes it increases the severity of the crash and the risk of death.

To oversimplify, a single-vehicle motorcycle crash occurs when the rider attempts something he's unable to execute. He doesn't know he can't execute it of course. But the unknown and random factors that enter into every event in real life add up against him. And without enough margin for error, his skill is overwhelmed. The mismatch between ability and the demands placed on it can happen regardless of skill level. Just as a n00b can get into trouble, so can a riding god. And likewise, riding gods and n00bs can both avoid crashing. It depends not on skill as an absolute, but on accurate perception of task and ability, and on the risks the rider feels comfortable with.

When you improve your skills with training, reading, and practice, you can do what you want with them. If you'd like to be safer, you can use your new skills to reduce risk. If you're not real concerned about crashing--after all, "Bones heal, chicks dig scars, and the United States of America has the best doctor-to-daredevil ratio in the world"--you can apply your new skills to going faster with the same risk. Or, if you overestimate the skills you've acquired, you'll actually increase risk without knowing it.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a big supporter (and consumer) of motorcycle training and other means of developing skill. You can boost your confidence, thus empowering you to ride more miles, more challenging roads, and--if you want--at higher speeds. But after you've acquired the fundamentals of vision, braking, turning, throttle control, etc., additional skills will make you safer only if that's what you want.
 
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Ratters

Is it summer yet?
Skills + judgement= safe riding.

You can't guarantee a safe return every day, but you can certainly influence the outcome by being able to control your bike and excercising good judgement on how to do it.
 

jrace

MotoGPhreak
To oversimplify, a single-vehicle motorcycle crash occurs when the rider attempts something he's unable to execute. He doesn't know he can't execute it of course. But the unknown and random factors that enter into every event in real life add up against him. And without enough margin for error, his skill is overwhelmed. The mismatch between ability and the demands placed on it can happen regardless of skill level. Just as a n00b can get into trouble, so can a riding god. And likewise, riding gods and n00bs can both avoid crashing. It depends not on skill as an absolute, but on accurate perception of task and ability, and on the risks the rider feels comfortable with.
To oversimplify much further, an environment that removes as many unsafe variables as possible allows the rider to exercise their skills to the best of their ability and come home to ride another day.

-jim
 

Skidmarx

Don't Shoot!
Speed+public roads=disaster

Skill can't save you on public roads because there are just too many variables out of the rider's control. Even taking every precaution there is a significant risk of injury involved with riding. Applying skills learned at the track to riding on the street is fine. Trying apply the speeds of the track to road riding will eventually result in a wreck.

That's not to say that I sit in judgment of anyone. As long as a person knows the risk, if he/she chooses to push the envelope that's his/her choice.

When a couple of sport bikes came up on me on Redwood Rd. today I waved them by. I'm sure I could have held their pace (or pretty close to it) on my non-supersport. They weren't going that fast, but they were going too fast for me, given the number of cyclist and the cars on the road.

My "skill" was up to the task of keeping pace, but my judgment overruled. That's one of the things that keeps me riding. Riding is life in a microcosm. Riding requires you to make split second decisions that have immediate impact on your life. Unlike making financial, parenting or relationship decisions that may take years to find out if they were correct, you know immediately when you f-up on a ride.

In my mind, judgment trumps skill any day...


...besides, I'm a big wuss!:twofinger
 
Congrats Datadan. You just made the STUPIDEST POST SEEN ON BARF.

EVER.


Skill keeps you from getting killed.

Skill is experience put to use.


Skill means you have been to track days. had instructors.....been riding twenty years or more....learned to slow down the road...at any particular speed your sense of awareness and lack of nervousness gives you the ability to take the correct line.....lean appropriately...not use your brakes in panic......


SKILL basically saves your life if you ride.


great FANTASTIC troll topic.


please continue....


next up....data dan tells us how helmets impede peripheral vision and should be outlawed..........
 

Cal24Rallymaster

RallyBastard for Life
I would suggest you modify your definition of "Skill". I don't consider a person with 2 DUI's in a year skilled, no matter how fast they can ride. Riding fast on the street, or doing wheelies, or dragging your knees in the corner is not skill unless you can do it without endangering yourself or others.

I don't know the specifics of the crashes you mentioned, and it is possible that all these crashes happened as a result of things happening that were outside the riders control, or outside what they could reasonably expect could happen. It is however unlikely. More likely is that these riders were riding either over their heads, or over the conditions they were riding in.

A truly skilled rider is one that knows their limits and rides within them. They know that unexpected things happen on the street, and ride in a manner that they can react to them without disasterous results.

I'm guessing that none of the riders you mentioned fit into that definition.
 

Skidmarx

Don't Shoot!
Hey Dan, seems like you touched a nerve...ouch!

IMHO, there is a difference between skill and judgment. A rider that can handle a bike like a cycling god is definitely a skilled rider. That same rider can ride like an asshat showing very poor judgment.

Watch this series of vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXNReSswcDM

Clearly skilled riders. Judgment? Eh, not so much. (Fun to watch though...until they all crash!)

I think DataDan's point is that skill is not enough. The drunk rider doing a wheelie in the parking lot was a skilled rider. It just that his judgment wasn't up to the task of controlling his overinflated sense of skill.

As pissed off as some might get from this discussion, it's a good discussion to have. Thanks Dan. Thanks BARF! What would I do with out you?
 
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9rPilot

Olde Phart
Complacency Kills.

Don't get me wrong, I pray for the full recovery of our downed riders and every crash thread leaves me with a knot in my gut. I say the above from my own experience. I've been riding for a loooooong time and consider myself reasonably skilled. The problem is when I become complacent, too comfortable in the saddle, I drop my guard and put myself at risk. Going too fast, not paying enough attention, aggressive lane sharing... Just because I've gotten away with it for years, doesn't mean I'll survive tomorrow.
We all need to keep ourselves in check. Not get over confident, complacent, or so comfortable pushing the limits that we just expect things to happen like they did last time. One time, they won't. It's bit me in the past and fortunately I lived to ride again albeit with a new attitude and respect for this sport that I love.
 

Archimedes

Fire Watcher
Congrats Datadan. You just made the STUPIDEST POST SEEN ON BARF.

EVER.


Skill keeps you from getting killed.

Skill is experience put to use.

What? I know plenty of experienced riders who aren't overly skilled.

I agree with DataDan. As it comes to street riding, skill is overrated. The most important piece of safety gear is between your ears. Good decisions and good judgement make you a safer rider, not your mad skillz. All the skill in the world won't save your ass if you make bad decisions on the street. Which I believe was DataDan's point.
 

gixxerboy55

Well-known member
A highly capable rider is clinging to life after his second major street crash in 15 months, hopefully on his way to a full recovery. Last year another skilled rider nearly bought it at high speed in his second life-threatening street crash. And before that a similarly gifted and respected rider did lose his life when he wheelied into a parked car (as it turns out, while riding with a .26 BAC on a suspended license from a previous DUI conviction). But this isn't a thread for bashing injured riders; it's a cautionary one.

Some would suggest that the lesson in these tragic crashes is that "it can happen to anyone, anytime." You know: it's fate, and when your time is up, there's nothing you can do about it. I suggest a much different lesson: Skill is overrated as a way to prevent crashes. Instead, sometimes it increases the severity of the crash and the risk of death.

To oversimplify, a single-vehicle motorcycle crash occurs when the rider attempts something he's unable to execute. He doesn't know he can't execute it of course. But the unknown and random factors that enter into every event in real life add up against him. And without enough margin for error, his skill is overwhelmed. The mismatch between ability and the demands placed on it can happen regardless of skill level. Just as a n00b can get into trouble, so can a riding god. And likewise, riding gods and n00bs can both avoid crashing. It depends not on skill as an absolute, but on accurate perception of task and ability, and on the risks the rider feels comfortable with.

When you improve your skills with training, reading, and practice, you can do what you want with them. If you'd like to be safer, you can use your new skills to reduce risk. If you're not real concerned about crashing--after all, "Bones heal, chicks dig scars, and the United States of America has the best doctor-to-daredevil ratio in the world"--you can apply your new skills to going faster with the same risk. Or, if you overestimate the skills you've acquired, you'll actually increase risk without knowing it.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a big supporter (and consumer) of motorcycle training and other means of developing skill. You can boost your confidence, thus empowering you to ride more miles, more challenging roads, and--if you want--at higher speeds. But after you've acquired the fundamentals of vision, braking, turning, throttle control, etc., additional skills will make you safer only if that's what you want.
Ah Dear Data Dan i really don't think most people would have much respect for a rider that wheelies into a parked car, while being drunk after having his license suspended for a prior DUI, but i could be wrong.
 

jrace

MotoGPhreak
Ah Dear Data Dan i really don't think most people would have much respect for a rider that wheelies into a parked car, while being drunk after having his license suspended for a prior DUI, but i could be wrong.
You're missing the point. Seriously. The respect existed prior. Whether the same level was afforded afterwards is a sad exercise, as the person whom it was directed at was no longer with us.

Respect is earned, and in the same vein can diminish with repeated mishaps. Doesn't mean we still don't care for people, but that we question our own wisdom in regards to past accolades...

-jim
 

MrCrash

King of FAIL
I agree with DataDan as well. The track makes most people more aware of the hazards associated with street riding at speed - most people seem to click it back a few notches if they don't give it up entirely.

My skill increased significantly since my pre-racing "Sunday Morning Ride" days, but my public road speed has gone down a few notches. And I'm good with that...
 
the most skilled riders are experienced. I think that explains itself. I disagree with you archimedes and with data dan.

he is insinuating SKILLED riders are in multiple crashes. I disagree with who he calls skilled.


lack of skill will kill you archimedes. plain and simple.

skill....protects you.

you are arguing a different subject that might run parallel to this discussion.

posted by archimedes

What? I know plenty of experienced riders who aren't overly skilled.

archimedes you turned my statement on its ear. I stated SKILLED RIDERS.....

you archimedes stated EXPERIENCED RIDERS....


big difference there bud....HUGE...... not all experienced riders are skilled....but all skilled riders ARE EXPERIENCED. read that to yourself ten times till it sinks in before you disagree again.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

skill is a good thing. skill MEANS you have good judgement in how to use the motorcycle. you aint skilled if you do some fantastic move then do something stupid and crash.....you cant have it both ways.


mr crash that is part of my point and i stated as much.....how can you agree with datadan then bring up my point which is opposite of datadan......

GO to the track...gain skill....become more knowledgeable....skillful....and ride safer on the road.


SKILLED RIDERS do NOT ride like dumbasses on the road .....crashing multiple times....while DUI ....etc etc etc..... SKILLED RIDERS.....RIDE SKILLFULLY...not like retards.
 
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MrCrash

King of FAIL
skill is a good thing. skill MEANS you have good judgement in how to use the motorcycle. you aint skilled if you do some fantastic move then do something stupid and crash.....you cant have it both ways.

If someone wins an AFM championship, it's safe to say the rider is skilled. If that same someone wheelies into a parked car while riding under the influence, I don't think the rider is any less skilled - that's just bad judgment.

I think Dan sees skill and judgment as two different things. I agree with that.
 
mr crash...not to be argumentative BUT you are picking two words out of his diatribe of baloney.


he is insinuating skilled riders are not safe.....




I am stating skilled riders are safe..... compared to nonskilled riders....which is again...part of his point.

so mr crash....

is it your belief...that the more skilled you become the more unsafe you become?

please for the ladies and gentlemen of the jury .... ANSWER THE QUESTION.




the O.P. is wrong.

case closed.
 
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