Skill is overrated

[moto-rama]

To oversimplify, a single-vehicle motorcycle crash occurs when the rider attempts something he's unable to execute. ......

Your premise doesn't take many things in to consideration.

Using myself an example (I have over 40 years of riding experience, to include many trainings, some competition, and over a million miles of riding).

I have had one serious injury crash in since 1967, and several "less than severe get offs". I would say that for the most part, I have some responsibility in some of the crashes, and would classify them as part of my "learning experience".

The one and only severe impact collision was not avoidable, so I can't accept any responsibility for it's occurrence. ( A deer bolted into me )

Nearly all of the other crashes came in the first 5 years of my riding experience. I can't say that all were 100% my fault, but with better skills and judgement I might have avoided those incidents. About half of those crashes occurred in competition or on a closed course during some training.

It might be easy to make the statement that the recent events were the rider's fault, or mostly their fault, but I maintain that circumstances sometimes conspire to bring down experienced and competent riders even when they do their best to avoid trouble.

I will still put my money on the argument that assuming the rider's experience is coupled with a hefty dose of common sense and a sense of self-preservation, that they will be likely to avoid many traps that less experienced riders fall in to.

"attempts something he's unable to execute.." doesn't encompass enough scenarios.

Just my opinion.
But check the stats for riders in their first 5 years VS those with 25 years or more under their belt, with enough actual miles to be real experience.

The most important factor you have failed to account for is "The ability to anticipate what is next"
Of all the intangibles I have learned over the years, that is the one I count on to keep me alive.

 

[Matt.Lai]

Great post and right on the money. I'm 43 and have a fairly high level of skill. Just about two years ago I executed a bonehead maneuver that resulted in me staring directly at the grim reaper while exiting the Bay Bridge. How did I manage to live to tell the tale? Pure luck. As I debriefed myself directly following the incident, I realized how irrelevant skill is when compared to the consequences of a gross error in judgment.

My judgment has improved and continues to get better, and that I think that is one of the chief blessings of age. However, I am not perfect and I hope that my next lapse of judgment is not critical, as one only has so much luck.

 

[tuxumino]

Interesting OP. It has seemed to ruffle a few feathers and that's good if it gets people to think. It's getting people to question their ability and judgement. Don't let your ego (perceived skill level) write checks on the street your ass (actual skill level) can't cash.

This is the real question: have you properly evaluated your level of skill and is your judgement keeping you inside your envelope of safety.
AS a riders skills increase it's easy for that rider to misjudge his/her skill level: at first they're still a newbie and uncertain, but once they realize that their skills have improved it's easy for them to be over confident.

Maybe there should be some kind of rider self evalualtion, knida like a breast eaxm, where we could check our skills against our judgement.

 

[Ant]

How about common courtesy? Better yet lets look at self centerdness.When you race around dragging knees like Joe Racer on public roads you are endangering innocent folks wich is extremely selfish.

 

[Roadstergal]

Skill has absolutely nothing to do with judgement. They are mutually exclusive.

I couldn't disagree more.

Skill and judgment complement each other. A high skill level with bad judgment will get you hurt quickly, but good judgment with lack of skill will only go so far. Skill and judgment are synergistic, not mutually exclusive.

How about common courtesy?

Part of good judgment, IMO. Judgment involves considering all aspects of a situation - including your effect on others, both immediate and long-term.

 

[Ant]

I couldn't disagree more.

Skill and judgment complement each other. A high skill level with bad judgment will get you hurt quickly, but good judgment with lack of skill will only go so far. Skill and judgment are synergistic, not mutually exclusive.




Part of good judgment, IMO. Judgment involves considering all aspects of a situation - including your effect on others, both immediate and long-term.

:applause

 

[TTTom]

"Skill has absolutely nothing to do with judgement. They are mutually exclusive. ..."

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

[TylerW]

Skill isn't overrated. Judgment is underrated.

Give me back that hammer. You keep nailing 'em right on the head.

 

[DataDan]

MotardJunkie wrote: Congrats Datadan. You just made the STUPIDEST POST SEEN ON BARF. EVER.

I think our disagreement boils down to a difference in the understanding of "skill". Like others here, I don't think it includes "judgment". A rider can have skill--an ability to handle the motorcycle well--without judgment--a sense of when/where/how to ride to keep risk at an acceptable level. Or he can have good judgment without exceptional skill. Or he can have neither or both.

But the two aren't symmetrical. Judgment can keep a rider safe even though his skills aren't tip-top. If he understands his limitations, he won't put himself into situations that require a lot of skill. But no amount of skill can make up for bad judgment. If you enter blind corners too fast, sooner or later you'll find debris or a tightening radius you can't ride your way through.

Contrary to another post, I don't think the two are "mutually exclusive". That means if you have one, you can't have the other. You can have either, neither, or both.

sixtytwo wrote: Having read your entire post, I would like to say that I kinda get what you're saying. However, putting "skill is overrated" as the title of this thread is just asking for a flamewar.

As MrCrash observed, I was hoping to provoke discussion. But I do think some riders overemphasize the ability to handle the bike well as a factor in preventing crashes. Just as you would rather not get into a situation where your protective gear is the only thing left between you and a trip to the ER, you would also rather not get into a situation where your bike-handling ability is the only thing left between you and the pavement. Better not to get into the situation in the first place.

moto-rama wrote: I will still put my money on the argument that assuming the rider's experience is coupled with a hefty dose of common sense and a sense of self-preservation, that they will be likely to avoid many traps that less experienced riders fall in to.

That's what I would call "judgment", and one can have it without being a riding god. We come equipped with some from the factory, and we acquire more from the aftermarket:

Matt.Lai wrote: As I debriefed myself directly following the incident, I realized how irrelevant skill is when compared to the consequences of a gross error in judgment. My judgment has improved and continues to get better, and that I think that is one of the chief blessings of age. However, I am not perfect and I hope that my next lapse of judgment is not critical, as one only has so much luck.

 

[moto-rama]

Better not to get into the situation in the first place.

My claim is that as a rider accumulates more time and miles they are much better at anticipating the traps and mistakes that less experienced riders make.

Unfortunately part of a rider's experience usually includes some visits to the pavement or worse.
But it's those experiences that instill a sense of humility and a better idea of what to watch out for.

Someone mentioned the risk of over-confidence, and in my opinion is the most dangerous of all.

That period after which a rider acquires the basic physical skills and techniques, but hasn't accumulated enough experience to have encountered all the possibilities or developed an ability to anticipate possible traps or hazards.

I'd venture to guess that more catastrophic crashes occur between 2 and 5 years of riding.
Just when you think you know how to ride....:ride

 

[gambit45]

I couldn't disagree more.

Skill and judgment complement each other. A high skill level with bad judgment will get you hurt quickly, but good judgment with lack of skill will only go so far. Skill and judgment are synergistic, not mutually exclusive.




Part of good judgment, IMO. Judgment involves considering all aspects of a situation - including your effect on others, both immediate and long-term.

Wow, right on the money. Great Thread:thumbup

Do I go faster than the speed limit at times? Yes. But I really do try to minimize certain risks if I do. I.E. ride the the road mello first then come back the same way, never speed around on a residential street, only wheelie where I can't hurt anyone else. So on and so forth. Am I guilty of certain bad judgement? Probably. However I really do try to keep within my set of parameters on the street. That's more than I can say about alot of riders I see and ride with sometimes. At 45 most people can almost feel the edge of that envelope but some still go beyond that.

 

[vern748]

Skill and Judgment ARE mutually exclusive. You can have one without the other, aka Dani Pedrosa is a prime example. His bone head move of taking Hayden out last year shows both, Skill and Judgment, or lack there of. Dani does not have poor judgment, but in this situation, at that moment in time, his judgment was bad.

The point is that Judgment is also fleeting. There is no level of judgment that we achieve. It is more of a cup. It fills, it spills, empties and fills again as we go about our day. It comes and goes and is highly impacted by our moods. The “red mist” often cloud our judgment. The most skilled rider, the most sound rider will sometimes have a laps in judgment. Be it that someone cut them off on the road, lights diming on a long ride home, traffic getting bad, rain started to pick up, and any host of other factors out of our control. Now lets add in that we are late for a date with a hot young thing. How does this now change our judgment. Are we willing to take more risks, based on our skewed judgment? These situations all require us to make judgments. We will make judgments / decisions differently. Some OK, some not so good, and some will get us killed.

For me, on my daily commute, I constantly think about these things. If I pass this car and zip by him, is there a chance that someone will whip out, cut me off or run me over. Am I following too close and will I have the skill to stop in time. It’s a chore and it can become very time consuming. Sometimes it takes the fun out of riding, but I know the time that I don’t think about these things is the time that I will regret my actions. Due to my experience, most of these question and concerns are fairly cursory. Is my thoughts that these are just cursory concerns impairing my judgment ? ……

 

[Archimedes]

I couldn't disagree more.

Skill and judgment complement each other. A high skill level with bad judgment will get you hurt quickly, but good judgment with lack of skill will only go so far. Skill and judgment are synergistic, not mutually exclusive.
QUOTE]

Not saying they can't complement each other. Obviously they can. I'm saying they are two distinctly different traits. You can have one without the other and having one says nothing about whether or not you have the other.

 

[Nemo Brinker]

I couldn't disagree more.

Skill and judgment complement each other. A high skill level with bad judgment will get you hurt quickly, but good judgment with lack of skill will only go so far. Skill and judgment are synergistic, not mutually exclusive.


Part of good judgment, IMO. Judgment involves considering all aspects of a situation - including your effect on others, both immediate and long-term.

Well put. Skill and judgment seem to me to be related but distinct aspects of riding.

I think of judgment as the mental and anticipatory portion of motorcycling, the one that puts your physical skill into the context of the road, your own personal safety, and the effect your decisions cause.

I think of skill as the results of your training, experience, and ability, translated through the actions of your body.

And all the skill in the world can't do enough when your judgment fails.

 

[Burning1]

To make a strawman even more strawmany...

:rolleyes

I fell squarely into the category DataDan is describing. While I'm no riding god, I believe I have an above the average level of experience compared to the typical California motorcyclist (as do many many other riders here on BARF.)

As a result of my over-confidence, I used to regularly do 120 down large sections of skyline on my GSX-R 600. I've since slowed down, but it's very easy to see how confidence can greatly increase the risk of a fatality when it's not tempered by self control.

As a matter of fact, I recall reading that the risk of a fatal accident peaks twice based on experience. The first peak is for new riders with less than a year of experience. The second peak is for riders with three to five years of experience. This is mainly attributed to over-confidence.

 

[Wannaduck]

As Dan said earlier, mutually exclusive means one OR the other, but not both. I think what you meant to say is that they are independent of each other.

I couldn't disagree more.

Skill and judgment complement each other. A high skill level with bad judgment will get you hurt quickly, but good judgment with lack of skill will only go so far. Skill and judgment are synergistic, not mutually exclusive.
QUOTE]

Not saying they can't complement each other. Obviously they can. I'm saying they are two distinctly different traits. You can have one without the other and having one says nothing about whether or not you have the other.

 

[Roadstergal]

Not saying they can't complement each other. Obviously they can. I'm saying they are two distinctly different traits.

No, you said that you can't have skill and judgment at the same time:

They are mutually exclusive.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

INCONCEIVABLE!! :laughing

 

[fms1day]

Very good read. And I feel that the point you made is pretty accurate

Skill is acquired. But skill, itself, doesn't keep a rider safe. It's what the rider makes of his newly acquired skill and how he choices to use it.

 

[flying_hun]

Skill and Judgment ARE mutually exclusive. You can have one without the other,

Maybe the problem here is not the point that you are trying to make so much as the words you're using to make it. Mutually exclusive means that if you have one, you cannot have the other. You seem to be positing some sort of independence rather than exclusivity, meaning that it's possible to have one and not have the other, rather than having one totally excludes the other.

It's been my experience that there is a positive correlation between the two in most folks I ride with. Meaning that most have both skill and judgment to some degree. Some, more judgment than skill, others, more skill than judgment. There's sure to be some selection bias, since I won't ride with folks for long who do not possess some modicum of both characteristics.

Can we agree that both skill and judgment are both necessary to long term success on the road, while neither - in exclusion - is sufficient?

 

[flying_hun]

INCONCEIVABLE!! :laughing

Can you say that with a lisp? :teeth