Skill is overrated

gixxerboy55

Well-known member
You're missing the point. Seriously. The respect existed prior. Whether the same level was afforded afterwards is a sad exercise, as the person whom it was directed at was no longer with us.

Respect is earned, and in the same vein can diminish with repeated mishaps. Doesn't mean we still don't care for people, but that we question our own wisdom in regards to past accolades...

-jim
Yes Jrace you can still care about a person who rides drunk, but i would have very little respect for someone who rides drunk after having his licence suspended for a DUI. Getting the DUI would not do it but riding drunk without a license would.
 

wellbredred

Swimming the river Styx
Complacency Kills.

Complacency almost got me a couple of weeks back. Even now after going over and over it, I still can't believe I let (put) myself in that position, and that I got away with it. And this wasn't anything reckless at all. No one that saw what I did, would have reported afterwards that I was doing anything wrong at all at the time.

I respect DataDan and his input, but skill always protects me. Overconfidence and poor judgement was my downfall when I was younger. I like to think I've learned my lessons.
 
skid marx please read my previous post. I believe skill to be a good thing. the O.P. does not....


several posters now purport that being skillful is being reckless.

please elaborate......

remember....your digging your own grave in this subject. My logic is infallible.

I am not saying ALL SKILLED RIDERS are safe. so just toss that out of your basket if you are trying to prove me wrong.

my points are valid. the o.p. original statement is incorrect. wrong...judgemental....shall i continue?
 

Valgar

Fighting solves everything.
Staff member
remember....your digging your own grave in this subject. My logic is infallible.


Most people that say things like this, well...they usually find themselves standing in a pit holding a shovel somewhere down the road.
 

plumber

Banned
Interesting OP. It has seemed to ruffle a few feathers and that's good if it gets people to think. It's getting people to question their ability and judgement. Don't let your ego (perceived skill level) write checks on the street your ass (actual skill level) can't cash.
 

khill

Well-known member
Some good thought provoking statements. Our sport while incredibly rewarding, has incredible penalty's as well. All of the training and coaching in the world won't help poor judgment, and that is what will kill our sport. .....my.02


Ken
 

Archimedes

Fire Watcher
the most skilled riders are experienced. I think that explains itself. I disagree with you archimedes and with data dan.

he is insinuating SKILLED riders are in multiple crashes. I disagree with who he calls skilled.


lack of skill will kill you archimedes. plain and simple.

skill....protects you.

you are arguing a different subject that might run parallel to this discussion.

posted by archimedes



archimedes you turned my statement on its ear. I stated SKILLED RIDERS.....

you archimedes stated EXPERIENCED RIDERS....


big difference there bud....HUGE...... not all experienced riders are skilled....but all skilled riders ARE EXPERIENCED. read that to yourself ten times till it sinks in before you disagree again.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

skill is a good thing. skill MEANS you have good judgement in how to use the motorcycle. you aint skilled if you do some fantastic move then do something stupid and crash.....you cant have it both ways.


mr crash that is part of my point and i stated as much.....how can you agree with datadan then bring up my point which is opposite of datadan......

GO to the track...gain skill....become more knowledgeable....skillful....and ride safer on the road.


SKILLED RIDERS do NOT ride like dumbasses on the road .....crashing multiple times....while DUI ....etc etc etc..... SKILLED RIDERS.....RIDE SKILLFULLY...not like retards.

Skill has absolutely nothing to do with judgement. They are mutually exclusive. Skilled riders are capable of using bad judgement (See; in re: D. Pedrosa) and fairly unskilled riders are capable of using good judgement and riding for years without having an accident (my brother).

You are confusing skill with judgement and just because someone has ridden for years and is a skilled rider, doesn't mean they are going to always use good judgement. Which is again the point DataDan is trying to make and you seem to be missing.
 

sixtytwo

meh.
Having read your entire post, I would like to say that I kinda get what you're saying. However, putting "skill is overrated" as the title of this thread is just asking for a flamewar.

Skill isn't just the ability to make the best corner, it's also the ability to mitigate a potentially hazardous situation when you're stuck with one. It's the ability to stop the bike in an emergency without locking and washing out the front. It's the ability to keep the bike up and in control even when you've lost traction.

There are a whole truckload of skills that aren't in the category of "fundamentals of vision, braking, turning, throttle control", but will they save your ass in a tough situation? You betcha.
 

jrace

MotoGPhreak
skid marx please read my previous post. I believe skill to be a good thing. the O.P. does not....


several posters now purport that being skillful is being reckless.

please elaborate......

remember....your digging your own grave in this subject. My logic is infallible.

I am not saying ALL SKILLED RIDERS are safe. so just toss that out of your basket if you are trying to prove me wrong.

my points are valid. the o.p. original statement is incorrect. wrong...judgemental....shall i continue?
Your hole is far deeper that DataDan's. Try reading it again, with a less jaundiced eye. It appears to me you're skimming as you two are in agreement more than not.

-jim
 

corrupt

meat cleaver
A highly capable rider is clinging to life after his second major street crash in 15 months, hopefully on his way to a full recovery. Last year another skilled rider nearly bought it at high speed in his second life-threatening street crash. And before that a similarly gifted and respected rider did lose his life when he wheelied into a parked car (as it turns out, while riding with a .26 BAC on a suspended license from a previous DUI conviction). But this isn't a thread for bashing injured riders; it's a cautionary one.

Some would suggest that the lesson in these tragic crashes is that "it can happen to anyone, anytime." You know: it's fate, and when your time is up, there's nothing you can do about it. I suggest a much different lesson: Skill is overrated as a way to prevent crashes. Instead, sometimes it increases the severity of the crash and the risk of death.

To oversimplify, a single-vehicle motorcycle crash occurs when the rider attempts something he's unable to execute. He doesn't know he can't execute it of course. But the unknown and random factors that enter into every event in real life add up against him. And without enough margin for error, his skill is overwhelmed. The mismatch between ability and the demands placed on it can happen regardless of skill level. Just as a n00b can get into trouble, so can a riding god. And likewise, riding gods and n00bs can both avoid crashing. It depends not on skill as an absolute, but on accurate perception of task and ability, and on the risks the rider feels comfortable with.

When you improve your skills with training, reading, and practice, you can do what you want with them. If you'd like to be safer, you can use your new skills to reduce risk. If you're not real concerned about crashing--after all, "Bones heal, chicks dig scars, and the United States of America has the best doctor-to-daredevil ratio in the world"--you can apply your new skills to going faster with the same risk. Or, if you overestimate the skills you've acquired, you'll actually increase risk without knowing it.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a big supporter (and consumer) of motorcycle training and other means of developing skill. You can boost your confidence, thus empowering you to ride more miles, more challenging roads, and--if you want--at higher speeds. But after you've acquired the fundamentals of vision, braking, turning, throttle control, etc., additional skills will make you safer only if that's what you want.

Yeah, having a lapse of judgment when it really counts is a mofo.

Putting it out on the edge all the time is like running from the cops. You make one mistake at the wrong time, and you're done. You can cheat the odds, sometimes for a long while, but when you continue to push it you may find yourself in a situation where your skills aren't enough to carry you through.

Some people don't know how to reel it in every once in a while. They're usually pretty motivated and upbeat people. They're usually the kind of people who don't let bullshit get in the way of having a good time. Bullshit like, you know, being sober while riding, having insurance, being licensed, or even just questioning the possibility of uncertain road conditions around the corner. A lot of these people aren't inherently "bad". Sometimes expressing one's own freedom can be way too addictive. Is it a lack of respect for society? I don't know. Could you call it a lack of discipline or judgment? Probably.

Gambling against the odds on a motorcycle can be addictive. The more you push it, the more you feel comfortable hanging it out. Searching for that thin line some where between calculated risk and death is not something you ever want to find. A lot of people know where that line is, and they won't ever be able to talk about it. A lot of good people, and a lot of "skilled" people.

Do you find that you're taking on more risk on the street as your "skills" increase? Do you believe that one day magically you're going to be crowned "King of the streets", or are you waiting for your near death experience before you stop riding at 100%. If you haven't thought about it, then think about it now. The odds of either of those two things happening before death knocks is pretty low. The odds of coming so close to death that you have a life-changing epiphany and don't die, are very low. Think about what you're doing every once in a while, think about the consequences before they bite you in the ass without warning.

Ride safe.

PS, I am not without sin, and I'm not trying to preach to anyone. I think about this a lot to myself.
 

RhythmRider

Still Rhythm Rydin'
remember....your digging your own grave in this subject. My logic is infallible
Unfortunately, your logic is based on the false premise that DataDan was saying skilled riders are unsafe. DataDan's point was that being a skilled rider does not guarantee your safety if you take a significant amount of risks. The human body has a finite amount of time that it takes to react, and even the most skilled rider in the world can't circumvent that. In a situation where it is physically impossible for the human body to react in time, rider skill is irrelevant. The only thing that can save you from that type of situation is not to get into it in the first place, and that requires good judgment, which has nothing to do with how well you can control the motorcycle.

If you want to have a proper argument with someone, you should agree on the terms of the argument at least.
 

MrCrash

King of FAIL
Having read your entire post, I would like to say that I kinda get what you're saying. However, putting "skill is overrated" as the title of this thread is just asking for a flamewar.

It might, but it's also a good way to get people to read his post and think about things.

The fact that he hasn't followed up on his post (yet) makes me think that was the whole point.
 

Lovedoc

That's COLD, Brrrr
OK, going fast takes skill, lean angle, trail braking, bla bla bla, all skills. What about just going out for a ride and coming home, no drama. Some riders go MANY MANY miles without a crash, those are skills too, thats not just luck or judgement, those riders have certain abilities that deserve a lot more respect.
 

Var

One Track Pony
motard junkie, please read what rhythmrider posted at least twice. You have poor reading comprehension skills and are mistaken. datadan is NOT saying skills are overrated. The title of the thread has a sarcastic overtone, and his explanation further clarifies that. He isn't saying skills are irrelevant or a bad thing at all, but only if we use them to go faster on public roads.

If you can take x corner at 40mph at 90% then you don't have a big margin for error. If you acquire more skills, let's say you can now take the same corner at 40mph at 60% which is safe, or you can choose to go back up to 90% again. Now you're going 60mph in the same corner at 90%. You're a more skilled rider, but you've put yourself in an unsafe position once again. At this point, a less skilled rider with better judgment is better off than you.
 
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