Skill is overrated

[zrex]

Speed+public roads=disaster

Skill can't save you on public roads because there are just too many variables out of the rider's control. Even taking every precaution there is a significant risk of injury involved with riding. Applying skills learned at the track to riding on the street is fine. Trying apply the speeds of the track to road riding will eventually result in a wreck.

That's not to say that I sit in judgment of anyone. As long as a person knows the risk, if he/she chooses to push the envelope that's his/her choice.

When a couple of sport bikes came up on me on Redwood Rd. today I waved them by. I'm sure I could have held their pace (or pretty close to it) on my non-supersport. They weren't going that fast, but they were going too fast for me, given the number of cyclist and the cars on the road.

My "skill" was up to the task of keeping pace, but my judgment overruled. That's one of the things that keeps me riding. Riding is life in a microcosm. Riding requires you to make split second decisions that have immediate impact on your life. Unlike making financial, parenting or relationship decisions that may take years to find out if they were correct, you know immediately when you f-up on a ride.

In my mind, judgment trumps skill any day...


...besides, I'm a big wuss!

DING DING DING!!!!

We have the winning post...

 

[Dr_SLO]

Not wanting to fan the flames too much but...

Judgment IS a skill. One that is learned just as much as counter steering and trail braking. If you do not learn judgment then you lack this particular skill. I have to agree that although skill is useful without judgment the consequences can be fatal.

Hopefully the 1Rider campaign will bring both skills AND judgment to new riders sooner rather than later.

 

[ILOAD2]

Skill does not manifest itself as "speed" on the street.

Skill,is the ability to react and correct.

 

[Eric in Davis]

This thread makes me wish we still had mojo to help the better posts "rise to the top". Lots of people "not getting it" in this thread. When I saw who the poster was, and read the title I knew what the message was going to be before even reading the post. I read the post and "got it" right away.

Skill is great, always good to improve your skills and learn new skills. What is bad, is when your ego takes over and you think that your new skill makes it OK for you to take that turn at 95 mph instead of 75 mph. Your Rossi-like lean-angle isn't going to do much for you when a car makes an illegal U-turn in a corner marked 45 mph.

The older I get, the faster I go on the track, and the slower I go on the street. (I've probably actually plateau'ed on the track... but I still go slower on the street).

Ride smart, ride safe, ride another day.

 

[mike23w]

I like this quote:

Enchanter's sig:

'superior judgment to avoid situations that require superior skill.'

In MSF they teach you "S.E.E.": Search Evaluate Execute.

Judgment falls into the the Search and Evaluate part.
It's the decision or plan you make before you control the bike;
it's strictly a mental process.

Skill is tied to Execution and involves physically controlling the motorcycle.

Judgment occurs before any skill is applied.

Superior judgment will help avoid situations which require superior skill.

Conversely, poor judgment will put you in situations which require
superior skill to avoid injury or death; enough close calls and at
some point your number will be called.

It's better to have superior judgment than superior skill.

 

[Gary J]

I like this quote:
In MSF they teach you "S.E.E.": Search Evaluate Execute.

You sure this "S.E.E" is what they teach Mike???

As I recall, the MSF teaching, at least as it had been presented in the past, used the catch-term of: "SIPDE"

- Scan
- Identify
- Predict
- Decide
- Execute

Just curious if things have changed?? :confused

 

[mike23w]

I first saw SEE in the DMV motorcycle handbook.

But it's apparently a recent simplified version of SIPDE.
http://www.republichd.com/Experience/RidersSafety/SEE.aspx

And taught in the MSF RiderCourses:
http://www.msf-usa.org/index_new.cf...ent=19B90E01-3048-280F-E888C67433AC8E98&spl=0

You sure this "S.E.E" is what they teach Mike???

As I recall, the MSF teaching, at least as it had been presented in the past, used the catch-term of: "SIPDE"

- Scan
- Identify
- Predict
- Decide
- Execute

Just curious if things have changed?? :confused

 

[clenzer72]

SIPDE was not in my MSF class 6 months ago...it was all SEE

 

[Carlo]

I lost interest in reading responses after about the 7th reply from someone who seemed to thing Dan's original post claimed that skill is what gets people in trouble. Did any of you guys read the last two paragraphs of his post?
For example:

he is insinuating SKILLED riders are in multiple crashes. I disagree with who he calls skilled.

Here's what he said about skill (edited slightly for brevity):

When you improve your skills with training, reading, and practice, you can do what you want with them. If you'd like to be safer, you can use your new skills to reduce risk.
[or]...you can apply your new skills to going faster with the same risk [that you had before you acquired the new skill].

His point was that no amount of skill can prevent someone with bad judegement from riding beyond the ability of their skill to keep them out of trouble.
This is what's happened to every single one of the very experienced and skilled ridings among the barf membership who have put themselves in the hospital (in single vehicle crashes) because of their bad judgement.
They didn't leave their skill on the dresser that morning, they failed to recognise that they were riding beyond their well-documented abilities and paid the price.

This is something that all of us need to be aware of, and those who are mocking Dan's effort here are probably among those who most need to have this lesson drummed into them. (or maybe they'll learn it the hard way)

 

[Carlo]

You sure this "S.E.E" is what they teach Mike???

- Scan
- Identify
- Predict
- Decide
- Execute

I was a bit dissappointed when they abandoned the original acronym. It's longer and harder to memorize, but it also says exactly what it needs to say, and once you truly understand and apply the concept, you'll never forget what the letters mean. In fact, just the process of memorizing it will reinforce the concept in your mind.

 

[Ray]

Skill is experience put to use.


Some people have 10 years of riding experience, other people have 2 years of experience 5 times over. There is a difference.

 

[Cheyenne]

I didn't bother to read the whole thread..but...

I use my driving skills to run hwy 17 at 85-90, in the dark, with a coffee in my right hand, in a car with sloppy suspension and mismatched tires.

Just because it's easy, doesn't make it safe.

Do you feel happy knowing I'm likely the most skilled person on that road, if you commute with me? Didn't think so.

If I blow past my skill level, I'm already going way faster than I would be if I were one of the sleepy sheep drivers that clog the fast lane, so I'll likely have a worse crash.

The skill that keeps me coming back for more, is staying well within my limits. It does not make what I do safe, but it's the "skill" that makes it a long lasting habit. I started down the path of fast driving so that I would feel more confident on the highway...I'm more confident, and in more control, but unless I keep the speed reasonable, I can't claim more safety.

What DOES make me more safe, is having automatic responses that are well ingrained.

 

[Trick SV]

Congrats Datadan. You just made the STUPIDEST POST SEEN ON BARF.

EVER.


Skill keeps you from getting killed.

Skill is experience put to use.


Skill means you have been to track days. had instructors.....been riding twenty years or more....learned to slow down the road...at any particular speed your sense of awareness and lack of nervousness gives you the ability to take the correct line.....lean appropriately...not use your brakes in panic......


SKILL basically saves your life if you ride.


great FANTASTIC troll topic.


please continue....


next up....data dan tells us how helmets impede peripheral vision and should be outlawed..........

+1

 

[picuplouie]

You sure this "S.E.E" is what they teach Mike???

As I recall, the MSF teaching, at least as it had been presented in the past, used the catch-term of: "SIPDE"

- Scan
- Identify
- Predict
- Decide
- Execute

Just curious if things have changed?? :confused

SIPDE is still discussed and used in the The MSF Experienced RiderCourse according to the AMA.

 

[kojakbloke]

I agree with MotardJunkie and Trick SV...dumb post Datadan.

Skill: the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well, competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity

Judgment: the ability to judge, make a decision, or form an opinion objectively, authoritatively, and wisely, esp. in matters affecting action, the demonstration or exercise of such ability or capacity

Or to put it another way-

Only a highly skilled lawyer could become a judge.

 

[insyder]

...Watch this series of vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXNReSswcDM

Are you fucking KIDDING ME??? These guys are certifyable. :wtf

 

[DataDan]

I agree with MotardJunkie and Trick SV...dumb post Datadan.

Skill: the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well, competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity

Judgment: the ability to judge, make a decision, or form an opinion objectively, authoritatively, and wisely, esp. in matters affecting action, the demonstration or exercise of such ability or capacity.

If you're arguing that skill and judgment are different, you're agreeing with me. One can be skilled--that is, able to make the motorcycle do extraordinary things--but lack judgment--that is, know when and where to use that skill safely.

Lacking good judgment, even a highly skilled rider can get into serious trouble. And in fact they do, as shown in examples in this thread.

OTOH, a less skilled rider with good judgment can avoid trouble by riding within his abilities.

 

[kojakbloke]

If you're arguing that skill and judgment are different, you're agreeing with me. One can be skilled--that is, able to make the motorcycle do extraordinary things--but lack judgment--that is, know when and where to use that skill safely.

Lacking good judgment, even a highly skilled rider can get into serious trouble. And in fact they do, as shown in examples in this thread.

OTOH, a less skilled rider with good judgment can avoid trouble by riding within his abilities.

Absolutely not agreeing with you because you are pitting them as rivals.

They are yin and yang.

Here's a thought for you...

You make a good judgement call... and yet you don't have the skills to execute...what happens?

Once again dumb thread.

 

[Dr. Evil]

This has almost certainly been said, but...

I like to think of my skill as not just my technical ability to control the bike, but also my awareness of the limits of that ability, the environment in which I ride, my ability to evaluate all the elements, both dynamic and static, of that environment, and my ability to integrate all of these things in order to produce safe and responsible riding behaviors that would avoid as many dangerous scenarios as reasonably possible, as well as practicable responses to any of the various scenarios that I am unable to forsee.

 

[Aluisious]

Absolutely not agreeing with you because you are pitting them as rivals.

They are yin and yang.

Here's a thought for you...

You make a good judgement call... and yet you don't have the skills to execute...what happens?

Once again dumb thread.

You want to provide one example of that "thought?"