Round 1 Buttonwillow Sat Race #2

[scratchpad]

Formula 40 LT, 400 SuperStock, 350 SuperStock, Afemme LT, Clubman LT

Perhaps maybe a better solution would be to put F40 LWT in the last wave with F40 heavy and F40 middleweight. Or maybe a one wave start instead of 5. We went through this same thing a few years back and it was decided that it was too dangerous. Now, its back. Up to 20 mph speed and 38 seconds a lap difference with the slower riders. Something needs to be looked at.

 

[RACER774]

I would absolutely support putting F40LWT in the back/final wave with F40 HVWT/MWT Makes way more sense!!!!!

 

[Holeshot]

No, it makes no sense when a 1K is lapping a 250. No way guys.

 

[TWF]

No, it makes no sense when a 1K is lapping a 250. No way guys.

Why is 250 in f40lt
I don't think I ever seen one race in that class, it is all twins and cripples if I am not mistaken.

 

[thedub]

Formula 40 LT, 400 SuperStock, 350 SuperStock, Afemme LT, Clubman LT

Perhaps maybe a better solution would be to put F40 LWT in the last wave with F40 heavy and F40 middleweight. Or maybe a one wave start instead of 5. We went through this same thing a few years back and it was decided that it was too dangerous. Now, its back. Up to 20 mph speed and 38 seconds a lap difference with the slower riders. Something needs to be looked at.

I don't even understand the complaint. Who is lapping who in that race?

 

[TWF]

I don't even understand the complaint. Who is lapping who in that race?

F40 lapping rest. Problem is there are to many people and classes, 5 waves. Some are fine but most are slow because you have all in there, experts and novices. Speed difference is too much.
There would be less racers and smaller speed gap if F40lt is wave with HW and MW.

 

[TWF]

Few years back there was issue with this combo resulting in crashes. They separated them but now they are back together.
250/300 simply don't fit with any other bikes, they need to be on their own.

 

[Holeshot]

F40 lapping rest. Problem is there are to many people and classes, 5 waves. Some are fine but most are slow because you have all in there, experts and novices. Speed difference is too much.
There would be less racers and smaller speed gap if F40lt is wave with HW and MW.

We shouldn't put LW bikes with heavy bikes.

 

[scratchpad]

We shouldn't put LW bikes with heavy bikes.

Whats a better solution to this then?

Putting F40 LWT in the last wave of HVY and Mid, the leaders of HVY might come across a couple Novice riders at the end of the race.

The way it is now with 5 classes/waves 13 riders got lapped at up to 26 mph speed difference.

 

[Holeshot]

IMO, Afemme Lwt and clubman LWT create the issue(s). We've always had Clubman, but not Afemme and the 400 class is all new this year. We simply have too many classes. If we're able to merge afemme Lwt/ Clubman LWT, it would take one launch off the grid. You make a good point about 5 green flags.

Ideally, a 4th race on sunday would solve the problem, but we don't have time in the day for that.

In F40 MW, we end up lapping the tail of the MW grid in 6 laps at the same time as getting to the top 3 for HVY. I can' imagine LWT bikes being out there too...

There are plenty of times when I hate our class structures...

 

[Tumbleweed]

The only difference from last year is the new 400-class - or am I wrong? Last year the 400SS racers were in with the F40LT (or elsewhere). I can see where adding the additional wave would spread out the start enough where the slowest (and potentially least experienced) ClubLT's get swarmed.

Could the F40 and 400SS start as one wave or would that be a mess?

 

[sckego]

If anything, I'd say to combine 400 and 350SS into a single wave.

One issue with launching different classes in the same wave is that the experts of the class to the rear are going to be piling through Turn 1 all mixed in with the novices of the class in front. Maybe grid 350 EX in front of 400NV?

Wave 1: F40LT EX/NV
Wave 2: 400 EX / 350 EX / 400 NV / 350 NV
Wave 3: AFemme
Wave 4: CLT

 

[scratchpad]

Could be 3 waves, or is that not fair. And still have their own race. Getting rid of at least one wave would help.
F40 LWT
400/350’s
Afemme/Club LWT

 

[Holeshot]

Lemmee see what we can do. There's got to be some tweaking to make it better. I'll look at schedule again too.

 

[velazcod]

There are plenty of times when I hate our class structures...

Don't take this the wrong way, but why not do something about it then?

This has been brought up many times. There are way too many classes, the class structure is bad, which makes the rulebook a mess and everything is very hard to understand for new riders.

 

[thedub]

Don't take this the wrong way, but why not do something about it then?

This has been brought up many times. There are way too many classes, the class structure is bad, which makes the rulebook a mess and everything is very hard to understand for new riders.

An attempt was made.

 

[Holeshot]

Don't take this the wrong way, but why not do something about it then?

This has been brought up many times. There are way too many classes, the class structure is bad, which makes the rulebook a mess and everything is very hard to understand for new riders.

Thanks for the caution.

IMO, the little bikes make it a bit of a mess...that and everyone seems to want/ have a class for their particular bike and in the slow years, we're pretty much at their wants due to event costs being as high as they are. We don't have problems with established classes that aren't wavering in what's being produced (I4 - 600, 1000, etc). It's the 700CC twins/ 300's/320's/400's/450's/ etc that make things difficult...IMO, of course.

 

[velazcod]

Thanks for the caution.

IMO, the little bikes make it a bit of a mess...that and everyone seems to want/ have a class for their particular bike and in the slow years, we're pretty much at their wants due to event costs being as high as they are. We don't have problems with established classes that aren't wavering in what's being produced (I4 - 600, 1000, etc). It's the 700CC twins/ 300's/320's/400's/450's/ etc that make things difficult...IMO, of course.

Thanks for the explanation, makes perfect sense. Here's a start of what I'd do

- Eliminate all legacy classes (keep vintage)
- Eliminate 750 I4 (it's mostly 600s running those races anyways)
- Combine 700 twins and 450 cripples
- Keep and combine lightweight classes (250-399cc)
- Kawis can keep their own class (400), although I would argue to combine them into the Lightweight class and figure a cheap way to neuter them, but it may be ok to keep them on their own
- Keep all the novice only classes as well the F40 and F50 classes
- Forget about the "GP" category, just Superstock and Superbike



You are left with something like:



Superstock (Novice/Expert)
------------
300
400 Kawis
450 cripple / 650 twins
600
Open

Superbike (Novice/Expert)
------------
300
400 Kawis
450 cripple / 650 twins
600
Open (600+)

- Clubman (Novice only)
- Light
- Middle
- Heavy
- AFemme (Novice/Expert)
- Light
- Heavy
- Vintage Light (Novice/Expert)
- Vintage Heavy (Novice/Expert)
- Formula 40 (Novice/Expert)
- Formula 50 (Novice/Expert)
- Formula Lightweight (Experts only)
- Formula Middleweight (Experts only)
- Formula Pacific (Experts only, 600+)


This clears out the weekend a lot for other things like potentially more practice time, or even more qualifying time for the formula classes, or more laps for the formula races (Formula Middle also run x2 laps?), it simplifies things, and it's more inline with other clubs, as well as National and World series.

Most classes still get 3-4 races for the weekend.

People will complain but we need new members and the complicated structure can deter people that go to the AFM site and open the rulebook for the first time. Honestly, most other people that complain just want free trophies due to the small grids.

(There's likely loopholes in the structure I pasted above, but again, it's just a start)

 

[Holeshot]

Thanks for the work/ suggestion. Here's the large rub; to make the event's work financially, we'd have to double entry fees if we're losing near 10 classes.

 

[velazcod]

Thanks for the work/ suggestion. Here's the large rub; to make the event's work financially, we'd have to double entry fees if we're losing near 10 classes.

That's good insight, makes perfect sense. I'll sleep on this and try to think of something to suggest.