Prostitution: Decriminalize, Legalize, or leave it as is?

[My900ss]

I don't necessarily disagree with you. My question would be how do you ensure that one set of illegal abusers isn't simply replaced with another set of legally empowered ones?

That is a good question yet not likely to be solved in a discussion on Barf. I am not an expert in labor law, healthcare, mental health nor occupational safety and hazards, so my opinion of how to regulate prostitution in an effective manner may not be practical. I started my original post with the caveat that it was my opinion. It is still my opinion, based on data I have seen, that prostitution has more victims than victors. Thus it is also my opinion that if you legalize it, you should also regulate it to improve the safety of both client and provider.

 

[lam@barf]

That is a good question yet not likely to be solved in a discussion on Barf. I am not an expert in labor law, healthcare, mental health nor occupational safety and hazards, so my opinion of how to regulate prostitution in an effective manner may not be practical. I started my original post with the caveat that it was my opinion. It is still my opinion, based on data I have seen, that prostitution has more victims than victors. Thus it is also my opinion that if you legalize it, you should also regulate it to improve the safety of both client and provider.

Sorry, I meant that a bit more tongue in cheek than it obviously came across.

In anything with a profit people end up paying. To the pimp or the precinct but we all pay one way or another and who we pay just depends on who has the most power at the moment. The question is will you have the power to obtain the 'protection' that you've paid for? Just because the gov regulates something doesn't mean employers/customers/gov will come through on what they owe.

 

[Climber]

I would ask that you look into the difference between average and mean incomes. Then read in my earlier post where I said the few would earn the most. My point remains that without regulation, prostitution has more victims than victors.

I think you meant median, which would be the middle income, numerically (#25 when sorting 50), and I agree that the numbers for median would very likely be very, very different.

I wonder where they get their numbers from, certainly there is a very large degree of assumptions and calculations based upon assumptions made. I doubt that the numbers would hold up under peer review.

Also, there is the factor of pimps, how much do many of the girls make after the pimp takes their cut, you don't give anything to a slave other than withholding a beating or drugs.

 

[Ogier le Danois]

I don't necessarily disagree with you. My question would be how do you ensure that one set of illegal abusers isn't simply replaced with another set of legally empowered ones?

Unfortunately there has not been a system that adequately reduces this problem. I don’t have any good ideas or solutions.

But in the absence of good solutions, I favor decriminalization or legalization.

I don’t have much hope for good solutions, as almost every other economic activity, as you noted with the coal miner example, is fundamentally exploitive.

Even a small reduction in exploitation related ills is a victory.

That is a good question yet not likely to be solved in a discussion on Barf. I am not an expert in labor law, healthcare, mental health nor occupational safety and hazards, so my opinion of how to regulate prostitution in an effective manner may not be practical. I started my original post with the caveat that it was my opinion. It is still my opinion, based on data I have seen, that prostitution has more victims than victors. Thus it is also my opinion that if you legalize it, you should also regulate it to improve the safety of both client and provider.

Sorry, I meant that a bit more tongue in cheek than it obviously came across.

In anything with a profit people end up paying. To the pimp or the precinct but we all pay one way or another and who we pay just depends on who has the most power at the moment. The question is will you have the power to obtain the 'protection' that you've paid for? Just because the gov regulates something doesn't mean employers/customers/gov will come through on what they owe.

 

[Climber]

Each conviction makes it harder for a prostitute to get out of the field and puts more pressure to keep her in the field.

 

[MysterYvil]

Out of curiosity, who here has actually known a sex worker?

Mrs. pointed out that my POV may be skewed because I have met so many of so many carieties. (For some reason IRL I have many strangers who are willing to confide in me so I hear all manner of life stories.)

 

[Melissa]

I can't even quantify how many men and women I know who are walking the track, working the back pages or flying around the world to visit a wealthy trick.

Why ask?

 

[MysterYvil]

I can't even quantify how many men and women I know who are walking the track, working the back pages or flying around the world to visit a wealthy trick.

Why ask?

Curiosity and a desire to learn.

I note that you and I both know workers and we both favor decriminalization.

I don't understand the folks who call for legalization and regulation, but I'm open to new perspectives.

 

[MysterYvil]

hepatitis is the new oh shit contagion.

(I meant to quote/underscore this earlier.)

This is no joke. Hep can also be spread through non-sexual contact as well and it's starting to run rampant.

 

[Holeshot]

Legalize and regulate.

There will still be a black market, of course. But making the bulk of the industry subject to regulation will increase safety and public health. That should also free up law enforcement and justice resources so they may be better utilized.

+100. And do so right quick. The arguments for lack of legality only seek to aid in victimization of working women and encourage domestic sex trafficking. The shit is awful and frankly, discouraging. How we legalized weed before sex is beyond me.

The black market will exist, but will be vastly diminished. I believe the private market can manage the health and safety aspects of STD's, etc based on certification. The only requirement I'd ask for is a nominal license fee with pooled insurance risk.

Sometimes I think the only reason it's still illegal is for legal confiscation of vehicles, etc.

 

[NorCalAthlete]

I guess my argument for legalize vs decriminalize is that it’ll end up there eventually anyway so why not just go for it. Kinda like weed. We started with decriminalizing and now over time are legalizing it, at least on a state level. :dunno I’ll freely admit I don’t have a dog in this fight so to speak though.

 

[Junkie]

Wot's the difference between decriminalize and legalize?

Decriminalization means that it's still illegal, but a low level crime (and likely not really enforced). Weed has been this way for a while in CA.

Legalization means that it's actually legal.

It would be my opinion, again just an opinion, that your perspective is based on too narrow of a data set. I.E. the "people you know in the industry" may number in the hundreds.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_United_States

If you divide $14B by 1 million workers, that is only $14,000 per worker and you know that amount is not divided so evenly. There are a very few making the most of that amount. As such it is fair to assume most workers are not earning a living wage. In addition to that if you looked at the social factors leading towards prostitution I bet you will find most "workers" in the industry are not capable of "taking care of their own taxes" nor filing a harassment / abuse claim with the police.

Now I am not saying this link is the absolute gods truth, but consider it be not far from the truth.

https://www.statisticbrain.com/prostitution-statistics/

Percent of arrests that are female prostitutes 70%
Percent of arrests that are the customer 10%
Murder rate for an American prostitute 180 per 100,000
Average times each year a prostitute has unprotected sex 250
Percent of prostitutes who were abused as children 75%
Average age a female becomes a prostitute 15
Average age of a customer 39.5
Percent who want to quit but can’t due to lack of money 84%
Average price per trick $60

The data suggests, for the most part, it is older men taking advantage of younger women. It also suggests they are in the trade less by free choice and more so by circumstance. Making it legal, without regulations to protect the workers, isn't going to improve the situation for the majority of prostitutes in the USA. I expect the people you "know in the industry" are not reflective of the majority.

Prostitution isn't evil in so far as the act of trading money for sex. Prostitution is evil in that it propagates the abuse and victimization of those least able to protect themselves. I offer to you, that it is irresponsible to champion for decriminalization without the protections that can be offered by regulation. One without the other is equal to the mis-Justice we have today. In my opinion.

215k/yr as an average, or typical, income for a US prositute seems extremely inflated from my point of view (no first hand experience on either side of such transaction). I do not know the business, but do see a fair number of seemingly desperate and impoverished streetwalkers in downtown Reno.

For whatever reason, I assume that the majority of prostitutes in the US would identify closer to that lifestyle, than that of a high class escort who charged $1000/hr for sex, or to be arm candy at a social function.

it wouldn't surprise me if a fair number of the streetwalkers you see are making quite a bit, but spend outrageous amounts of money on drugs :dunno but I have no experience with that, so I could be wrong

 

[HappyHighwayman]

Even places with Amsterdam have increased sex trafficking despite legal prostitution.

 

[MysterYvil]

Decriminalization means that it's still illegal, but a low level crime (and likely not really enforced). Weed has been this way for a while in CA.

Legalization means that it's actually legal. it wouldn't surprise me if a fair number of the streetwalkers you see are making quite a bit, but spend outrageous amounts of money on drugs :dunno but I have no experience with that, so I could be wrong

Decriminalization actually means that it is legal, that the law is uninvolved. Just like regular jobs.

The streetwalkers I have known make very little overall. The guys who run them take their earnings and dole out the bare minimum. Food, shelter, drugs, bail money, all doled out by their "protecters."

 

[MysterYvil]

Even places with Amsterdam have increased sex trafficking despite legal prostitution.

Different game.

I've met two sex workers who worked in The Netherlands. Both paid to emigrate there with offers of legal permits, offers of jobs like nannying. Both paid for the privilege to escape dead-end Eastern European economies. Both had their passports taken "for safekeeping." Both ended up pushed into the sex trade because otherwise they would have been deported back to countries they did not want to return to. Therefore they could not involve the authorities.

The trafficking trade is very sophisticated and duplicitous.

 

[HappyHighwayman]

Different game.

I've met two sex workers who worked in The Netherlands. Both paid to emigrate there with offers of legal permits, offers of jobs like nannying. Both paid for the privilege to escape dead-end Eastern European economies. Both had their passports taken "for safekeeping." Both ended up pushed into the sex trade because otherwise they would have been deported back to countries they did not want to return to. Therefore they could not involve the authorities.

The trafficking trade is very sophisticated and duplicitous.

Yep. The second women get pimped out and lose control things go bad. Pimping should always be illegal.

 

[Junkie]

Decriminalization actually means that it is legal, that the law is uninvolved. Just like regular jobs.

The streetwalkers I have known make very little overall. The guys who run them take their earnings and dole out the bare minimum. Food, shelter, drugs, bail money, all doled out by their "protecters."

That's not the definition I've ever heard used.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decriminalization agrees with me:

Decriminalization or decriminalisation is the lessening of criminal penalties in relation to certain acts, perhaps retroactively, though perhaps regulated permits or fines might still apply (for contrast, see: legalization).

 

[packnrat]

make it legal.

tax it,
regulate it,
tax it...again.

 

[MysterYvil]

Yep. The second women get pimped out and lose control things go bad. Pimping should always be illegal.

As long as such a law were used against those who coerce.

I am not a pimp. I have never received a dime from a sex worker. But because I have vetted clients, been a safe call person, dropped off and/or picked up sex workers from assignations I could be charged as one in many jurisdictions.

That's not the definition I've ever heard used.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decriminalization agrees with me:

Decriminalization or decriminalisation is the lessening of criminal penalties in relation to certain acts, perhaps retroactively, though perhaps regulated permits or fines might still apply (for contrast, see: legalization).

Wiki. I enjoy how the authors of that article use legalized examples to illustrate their non-point.

Check with sex workers and they'll likely clue you in as to how laws are actually used. They just get new bosses, ones who have the cloak of law under which to operate.

 

[MysterYvil]

make it legal.

tax it,
regulate it,
tax it...again.

Why a double tax? What regulations do you suggest?