scootergmc
old and slow
I agree. Vinales is the closest thing and the 1st year Suzuki is his only limiting factor. Jury is out.
2015 MotoGP Summer Break musings
- Thread starter scootergmc
- Start date
I agree. Vinales is the closest thing and the 1st year Suzuki is his only limiting factor. Jury is out.
KronikInsomniak
Well-known member
Bit harsh on Miller. The Open Honda is even worse this year with how tight the grid is and he is still beating all the other more experience Open Honda riders.
I mean realistically, given this year's grid and bikes, who is he exactly supposed to beat? Avintia who are running GP14s? He is beating DiMeglio and only 2 points off Baz who is on a much better package and everyone is saying what a great job Baz is doing. Both Hayden and Laverty have much more experience in bigger classes than him and he is ahead of them there.
I'm not too big on Miller either but the kid is doing okay given its his first year and what he has to work with. Its just that the top 15 this year is retarded in terms of riders and the type of bikes. You are not going to beat anyone there on a Open Honda. Everyone in the top 15 and then some are on pretty much factory bikes.
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JakesKTM
Well-known member
Because that's where our current echelon hails from. 125 cc > 250 cc > MotoGP. Moto 3 > Moto 2> MotoGP. How many other routes are there? Not many. Maybe a national series every now and then or WSBK or WSS? Not often.
How can you say thee is no evidence of that? Every rider in the top ten has come through 125's. :dunno
kevin 714
Well-known member
125 is not moto3. There's on,y 2 riders in the premier class that have raced moto3
No rider who did particularly well in MOTO3 has made any following leap, even in moto2, outside of vinales
very single moto3 stand out has languished once entering moto2 outside of maverick, and maybe now rins.
Again, moto 3 is not 125 and they aren't analogous.
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JakesKTM
Well-known member
In theory I disagree. In application I agree, which is why Moto 3 needs to go to a 450 cc motor. A 250, no matter how you juice it, isn't going to prepare you from the jump to 600 cc and 1000 cc bikes at that level.
Maybe Moto 3 needs to be Moto 4
stangmx13
not Stan
past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results
theres a big talent difference between "phenom" and "also ran", which is what most of the graduates are becoming in GP these days.
Moto3 is comparable in HP to the old 125s, about 55HP, but has considerably more torque.
Moto2 has a little bit more power than 250s, maybe 5HP more. but those bikes weigh more.
the engine/power has very little to do w/ how well those classes prep for GP. if anything, Moto2 is a hinderance because of the complete lack of electronics.
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That last generation of factory 250 two strokes was making 120hp? I thought it was 90 or something. Wow. Still only a few bikes on the grid were making that kind of HP, right? At least ALL the Moto2 bikes make the same hp.
I love Moto2 and I always thought the lack of electronics would be a hindrance to the racers but do we know for sure if its been a problem for Marc Marquez, or Iannonne or Smith or anyone else? Doesn't seem to have slowed MM93. Not arguing. Just curious.
And don't you have to be on the torque-converter-hill-of-death tomorrow morning?
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kelsodeez
2wheels good 4wheels bad
so, in bicycle racing there is a thing called "racing into shape" which means you werent physically ready to race, but you're getting into shape by racing. many people advise against this and i feel like its exactly what jack miller is doing, but on a motorcycle. he is coming to terms with a machine he just isnt ready for; physically and mentally.
id be surprised if he has much of a future after his contract is up simply because his bad habits are just being exacerbated instead of cured. i think the same went for brad smith, but he is in a contract year now and has somewhat come to terms with his machine. only time will tell
id be surprised if he has much of a future after his contract is up simply because his bad habits are just being exacerbated instead of cured. i think the same went for brad smith, but he is in a contract year now and has somewhat come to terms with his machine. only time will tell
KronikInsomniak
Well-known member
The biggest problem with Moto3 is all this drafting. It makes for great racing but does not prepare riders for Moto2 or GP. Alex Marquez even said this in a recent interview. All the skills and strategy learned for drafting your way to a title in Moto3 do not apply at all to Moto2. Moto3 ends up being a crapshoot of drafting and slow pace strategy battle that just doesn't gauge talent for the higher classes.
Moto2's problem is the bikes do not ride more like Moto3. Without electronics and with spec engines, everyone is forced to slide the rear like crazy to really lunge themselves into the corners. That is where Moto2's speed comes from.
The problem with this is that GP bikes require a totally different style more akin to Moto3. Smooth and flowing because of the high grip and high end electronics. Moto2 needs more electronics to teach riders how to work with the electronics and make the skills more transferable to GP. You see this problem with Pol and even Redding. Their Moto2 skills do not apply to GP bikes which require you to be more precise and let the electronics do the work. You just can't muscle a GP bike into a corner like you can with a Moto2 bike.
Moto2's problem is the bikes do not ride more like Moto3. Without electronics and with spec engines, everyone is forced to slide the rear like crazy to really lunge themselves into the corners. That is where Moto2's speed comes from.
The problem with this is that GP bikes require a totally different style more akin to Moto3. Smooth and flowing because of the high grip and high end electronics. Moto2 needs more electronics to teach riders how to work with the electronics and make the skills more transferable to GP. You see this problem with Pol and even Redding. Their Moto2 skills do not apply to GP bikes which require you to be more precise and let the electronics do the work. You just can't muscle a GP bike into a corner like you can with a Moto2 bike.
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stangmx13
not Stan
^^ pretty much. i think everyone has been in agreement that Moto2 only really weeds out the "also rans". the skill required to get to the front of one of those races every weekend is immense because of the field, so the ones at the front are almost guaranteed to be the most talented that year. unfortunately, those skills dont necessarily transfer to GP.
i do think that Moto2 and GP will become more similar w/ the Michelins. i dont think its likely that the riders will be lofting the rear wheel and still making the corner. i almost expect the riding style to look more Moto2-esque. but we'll c.
last i heard, 100HP for 250s was common. so i gotta expect the full factory versions were making more. they didnt have engines limit rules, so u know.
i gotta think that if u arent MM nor in a factory team, the lack of electronics experience slowed them down for a bit. the electronics provide so many more options for potential solutions to setup problems. i think itd be more difficult for a GP crew chief to decipher Moto2 feedback and somehow apply that to GP electronics.
but look at the results. MM was MM. Iannone's pace was more consistent round to round the second he made it to Factory Duc. Mav has the record for consecutive points finishes by a rookie. yet its taken Smith forever to reach that and Pol still isnt there in arguably the best Sat team. IMO, those factory electronics engineers really are worth their weight in gold.
all just my opinion of course. i do think that Moto2 riders would do better in GP sooner if they could play w/ more than just a locked down HRC kit box.
leaving at 6am. tech doesnt open til 3:45pm for me.
i do think that Moto2 and GP will become more similar w/ the Michelins. i dont think its likely that the riders will be lofting the rear wheel and still making the corner. i almost expect the riding style to look more Moto2-esque. but we'll c.
last i heard, 100HP for 250s was common. so i gotta expect the full factory versions were making more. they didnt have engines limit rules, so u know.
i gotta think that if u arent MM nor in a factory team, the lack of electronics experience slowed them down for a bit. the electronics provide so many more options for potential solutions to setup problems. i think itd be more difficult for a GP crew chief to decipher Moto2 feedback and somehow apply that to GP electronics.
but look at the results. MM was MM. Iannone's pace was more consistent round to round the second he made it to Factory Duc. Mav has the record for consecutive points finishes by a rookie. yet its taken Smith forever to reach that and Pol still isnt there in arguably the best Sat team. IMO, those factory electronics engineers really are worth their weight in gold.
all just my opinion of course. i do think that Moto2 riders would do better in GP sooner if they could play w/ more than just a locked down HRC kit box.
leaving at 6am. tech doesnt open til 3:45pm for me.
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KronikInsomniak
Well-known member
Looks like Forward could be out for Indy. The teams funds have been frozen by authorities.
Ducky_Fresh
Treasure Hunter
Dorna will get them through 1 race. All the stuff is there already.
Could be brutal for Baz and Hertl after that though..
Could be brutal for Baz and Hertl after that though..
scootergmc
old and slow
Looks like the Zook had a pretty good test day.... that seamless tranny can't arrive soon enough.
firstbuell
GO! 04,16,23,31,64,69,95
KronikInsomniak
Well-known member
KTM is already guaranteed their own independent slot for 2017 by DORNA.
However this could mean two Open Yamahas may become available for any team looking to move up.
Someone give the Pons team a call.
However this could mean two Open Yamahas may become available for any team looking to move up.
Someone give the Pons team a call.
KronikInsomniak
Well-known member
Aspar to KTM, calling it now. Pons to GP by 2017.
Ducky_Fresh
Treasure Hunter
No it wouldnt. KTM will never be much in GP IMO. You can quote me on that.
kevin 714
Well-known member
Better than where they are NOW. Which is a third tier pos that gets hardly any support
Look at what gresini did. Took a shitty bike yes, but they get support, a little development, things move along.
Aprilia won't wver be a motogo winner. But you know what? Gresini is already surpassing aspar.