Vacaville PD: K9 Ground & Pound

tzrider

tzrider

Write Only User
Staff member
Someone who doesn’t realize a bunch of motorcyclists on the Internet are going to call him names.
 
m0t0_ryder

m0t0_ryder

RYD!
More likely someone who doesn't realize they are being recorded doing it.

I simply cannot believe that any (good/certified) K9 trainer would use a "sit on them and punch them in the face repeatedly" tactic to correct bad behavior. A newby handler possibly. A trainer... not likely.

Info provided said they have only been together 3-4 months.
I am not sure, from the description, if the officer is a trainer or handler.
I believe the officer needs to be sent back to (train the trainer) school, or moved to another "specialty".
 
CABilly

CABilly

Splitter
bojangle said:
No, I never did. I also didn't specifically endorse what the officer did, either.



The Belgian malanois I had was already trained before I got him. I just had to train with him as a handler. We had to get used to, and trust each other. But many K9s are selected by trainers and then get paired with a handler from the beginning. The handler works with the dog to do all of the initial training, at the direction of a trainer.

You really need to use both positive and negative reinforcement to train a police dog. They need the right drive. They need to be ball driven. It's mostly reward/positive reinforcement based. But negative reinforcement has it's place. That what shock collars and dog whips are all about. Sometimes it takes negative reinforcement to correct bad behavior, and it's an ongoing process. Mals are spastic. They will constantly push the limits on obedience. They work for the reward, which was a tug o war with a toy. But they need to give that up on command. And when an issue like that arises, it takes negative reinforcement to correct.

In certification training for apprehension/protection work, the handler needs to be able to make the dog search on command, bite on command, and release a bite on command. That last one is harder because it requires the dog to break his drive. If the dog won't release a bite, the handler has to be able to go in and make the dog release and pull it off the person.
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The big part of working dogs is keeping that drive up and still maintaining bidability. Same with bird dogs you want them to hunt hard but also they need to be able to be called off at any moment if there’s a safety issue. And a dog that won’t give up the game to you at the end ultimately isn’t worth much. But most of those things can be trained with positive rewards.

Full disclosure, my dogs are collar trained. When hunting there are plenty of life and death scenarios you need to have them ready for. But the beauty of the e-collar is that it separates the noxious stimulus from the handler. A shock that ends when the bad behavior stops is a lot different than the handler you’re supposed to trust raining blows on you while you’re pinned to the ground. That doesn’t help build a working relationship.

And yes, I use the collar when we are out. But when I first got it I put it on myself and found the max level I could tolerate and I don’t go higher than that with my dogs.
 
bojangle

bojangle

FN # 40
Staff member
CABilly said:
The big part of working dogs is keeping that drive up and still maintaining bidability. Same with bird dogs you want them to hunt hard but also they need to be able to be called off at any moment if there’s a safety issue. And a dog that won’t give up the game to you at the end ultimately isn’t worth much. But most of those things can be trained with positive rewards.

Full disclosure, my dogs are collar trained. When hunting there are plenty of life and death scenarios you need to have them ready for. But the beauty of the e-collar is that it separates the noxious stimulus from the handler. A shock that ends when the bad behavior stops is a lot different than the handler you’re supposed to trust raining blows on you while you’re pinned to the ground. That doesn’t help build a working relationship.

And yes, I use the collar when we are out. But when I first got it I put it on myself and found the max level I could tolerate and I don’t go higher than that with my dogs.
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Yup. You sound like you know what you're talking about.
 
afm199

afm199

Well-known member
tzrider said:
More seriously, someone defending against a serious attack, IOW, not this handler.

Can’t think of another justifiable reason.
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Correct. I have been seriously attacked by a Malemute, ended up taking an ambulance ride with 18 bite wounds. You do whatever if that's the case. It wasn't the case with the idiot cop.
 
ThumperX

ThumperX

Well-known member
MAlinois are a different breed of dog. They are biters from the factory. They are loyal, smart (too smart) and make great LEOs. That said they are also one of the most head strong dogs out there, and they bite. I know I got animal control called on me for yanking the dog out of the truck and throwing him to the ground. I then sat on him. Why? Because that SOB bit me in the face while I was driving when I told him to stop barking. Dogs that bite often get sent to the death chamber.
If you look up the breed it states that although positive reinforcement is preferred some times physical behaviorlal correction is neccessary.

I didn't watch the video and I too am very against punching any animal in the face/head.
 
m0t0_ryder

m0t0_ryder

RYD!
It's up on Youtube now with more commentary and reporter questions as well as the Police Chief comments.

Of note here is the interview with Rene Lancaster, a 25 year retired LEO dog handler and trainer for multiple police departments.

As usual some of the replies/comments are off the wall crazy. But there is some feedback from (self proclaimed) K9 trainers.


youtu.be/mELurNmvjWs
 
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bojangle

bojangle

FN # 40
Staff member
ThumperX said:
MAlinois are a different breed of dog. They are biters from the factory. They are loyal, smart (too smart) and make great LEOs. That said they are also one of the most head strong dogs out there, and they bite. I know I got animal control called on me for yanking the dog out of the truck and throwing him to the ground. I then sat on him. Why? Because that SOB bit me in the face while I was driving when I told him to stop barking. Dogs that bite often get sent to the death chamber.
If you look up the breed it states that although positive reinforcement is preferred some times physical behaviorlal correction is neccessary.

I didn't watch the video and I too am very against punching any animal in the face/head.
Click to expand...

I basically said the same thing, without addressing the punching directly. But I'm just a piece of shit cop that the dirty masses like to shit on. Every lay person thinks they're an expert.
 
CABilly

CABilly

Splitter
bojangle said:
I basically said the same thing, without addressing the punching directly. But I'm just a piece of shit cop that the dirty masses like to shit on. Every lay person thinks they're an expert.
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The punching is the point of the thread. The question that hasn’t been answered is whether it’s approved practice to pin your partner down for several minutes while punching it in the face. If such methods have been shown to have positive effects on the dog’s behavior and the working relationship between K9 and handler.
 
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