Are we playing "gotcha" now? I had thought you and I have discussed corner entry over the years enough for you to know that I don't advocate steering the bike while on the gas. Yes, I told an anecdote about a guy who turned in with the throttle pinned at about 160 and didn't throw the front away. That's not an invitation for everyone to go ride that way, but it does illustrate that it's possible to get away with it.
your comments have not had enough objective terms for me to actually know what u mean.
I delete that paragraph from my post to reduce how much I sounded like a dick. I shouldn't have typed it to begin with. sorry.
KR apparently never saw a racer lose the front on corner exit. I bet he did it himself a few times :laughing
Here is the procedure:
- Roll off the gas.
- Pull the brakes.
- Downshift (if required).
- Steer the bike at your turn point.
- Once the lean angle is set and the bike is pointed on line, crack open the throttle and begin a slow roll-on through the remainder of the turn.
In a braking turn, the throttle is closed when steering the bike.
ok, engine braking while steering, got it. im surprised.
I can brake with 5% brake pressure, so little that my speed decrease is barely more than engine braking alone. but the front end is lowered and the bike turns better. its a great option for street riding and mostly what I used to do there.
Well, yeah. In real world terms that's not a problem you see often.
:confused people over-ride on corner entry all the time. thats generally not at a higher speed than maximum allowed by the corner, more a higher speed than allowed by their skill. suggesting they only slow by engine braking limits their options - perhaps they need to slow at a faster race than engine braking causes.
Trail braking allows for higher entry speed for one reason: You are entering the turn on a different, larger radius line. It isn't because you have more front end grip. I know this does not agree with what some people are saying.
yes, the instant after turn in, the radius is larger while trail braking because the turn in is slow. but it doesn't stay there. for the purpose of this convo, u are focusing on the wrong part of the corner. we know that the radius can be exactly the same at the slow point of the corner and often is for both styles of turning in. that means the turning radius decreased as the rider was trail braking - in part due to decreasing speed and in part due to accomplishing all their lean angle addition.
so, just before the slowest part of the corner, the trail braking racer will still be braking a considerable amount with a radius and speed that are nearly exactly the same and the same max lean angle. pro racers are still using a large % of brake pressure right up to the apex. with all that, longitudinal grip is much larger and at a minimum, lateral grip is equal. so total grip is definitely larger. at a minimum, u got the longitudinal grip for free.
and again, because racers tuck the front when letting off the front brake, I still think there is something more going on that makes lateral grip also larger while trail braking. for ex, the contact patch is larger. ive found only one engineering paper studying the effects of load sensitivity with cambered tires, but havent studied it enough yet to comment on it more.
Trail braking allows a line that is not possible entering the turn off the brakes, unless you're going far slower. A quick flick entry allows for a line that is not possible via trail braking. Both require that your speed is accurate at the place in the corner where lean angle is deepest. It is arguably easier for a lot of riders to to hit that correct speed via trail braking than it is with a quick-flick entry. This is probably the crux of why a lot of racers are coming to the conclusion that trail braking is the fastest way through most turns. A LOT of people who use a quick flick entry square the entry off more than necessary or set their entry speed as if that's the slowest part of the turn, when in reality it's not.
did u just imply that the fastest racers on motorcycles are incorrect that trail braking is the fastest way around a track :laughing
the other effects of trail braking contribute to why its faster around a track: decreased front ride height, shorter wheelbase, race bikes setup tall and stable statically, etc. I also think theres a beneficial tire heating effect from trail braking - if im turning left, its nice to heat up the left side of the tire more as im using it.
I wonder if uve ever ridden a bike that was truly setup well for trail braking.
It's always true that there is less risk when riders get their control actions right. Part of the context of this thread has been that one can or "should" trail brake everywhere. I'd submit that there are a lot of real world cases where that's a bad idea, such as dirty or wet pavement. It's also a poor policy when you aren't sure what the traction is like, such as riding back roads at night. A quick flick isn't a great idea there either, but turning off the gas and then getting to positive throttle ASAP is the safest way I know of to manage low (or questionable) traction situations.
id submit that any real world cause that requires the rider to slow mid-corner, the rider would have been better off trail braking already. unfortunately, this part of the convo would just devolve into what-ifs.
