The trail braking thread

Enchanter

Ghost in The Machine
Staff member
are we ignoring turns that require zero braking? ones where u wouldn't even coast or engine brake?

I absolutely trail brake for every turn that requires some braking. on the street, I would often trail brake for turns that do not require braking - but I cant say that id do it for every one. those turns where ud get by with just a little bit of coasting (engine braking), id find myself dragging the brakes out of habit.

On the street I rarely decelerate past my turn in point. I'll begin to trail-brake when the speed of the group goes up. The only time this has happened in the last few years has been on BARF Rallies. Those are the only times I ride in a more aggressive manner.

Damn near all of my non-commute riding is done at The Pace.
 

tzrider

Write Only User
Staff member
I have rarely evangelized trail braking, feeling that other skills are more important. I do see value in it however and do use it regularly. Everywhere? No.

When learning to ride, I think it's important to understand what control actions in a turn lead to getting the most stability and traction possible out of your particular bike. Bikes are more stable when the rider is slowly rolling on the gas than when s/he is off the gas. It's not a matter of setup. They are all that way. Some setups lead to being better off the gas than others, but it's still true the bike is more stable and offers its best traction with the throttle being rolled on.

Many people over the years have proven that to me convincingly. Onboard video and telemetry has proven it time and again. Personally, I prefer the bike to be in that condition for as much of the time as possible, so that's my default approach to setting up corners unless there are other, more important reasons to deviate from that approach.

That approach places demands on the rider. You have to be able to judge entry speed accurately. You have to be able to steer quickly, in the right location and by the right amount. Your throttle timing should be really good. Mistakes in these areas lead to going slower than you might want to (depending on your goal as a rider).

Keith Code wrote about trail braking before any schools were teaching it. He discussed it and taught it to riders in the early days. The CSS curriculum evolved to omit trail braking because many of the other skills seemed to require more attention and coaching to master. Riders were largely figuring out trail braking on their own.

In the meantime, trail braking has become very popular. While it's true the world's top racers use it, they do so in a framework where they have mastered other fundamental skills of going fast too. They know when the bike is in a condition that is best for it and they know sometimes they have to depart from that to the extent they can get away with to gain an advantage in certain situations. Riding schools don't all teach the same things. Sometimes it's as simple as a difference of opinion, sometimes it's because nobody else is addressing a particular aspect of riding and it becomes a market differentiatior. CSS has recently added trail braking back to the curriculum.

Trail braking has a lot of uses. One problem it solves very well is this: Riders who get all the braking done before turn entry frequently reach mid-turn feeling that they could have been going a little faster. When this happens, they may have set their entry speed accurately for their idea of what the target speed should be, but did not take into account that the bike will continue to slow past the turn point until the rider has cracked on the gas and rolled it on to the point where he is no longer slowing down. The rider who trail brakes tends to think naturally about mid-turn speed, knowing that his entry speed is higher than his mid-turn speed will be. It's part of his plan. I think most riders may find it easier to hit a desired mid-turn speed through trail braking than via a quick-flick turn entry.

Sooner or later, we will all need the brakes in a turn, no matter what our standard approach to cornering is. There will be deer. There will be sand. There will be blind decreasing radii. Riders who frequently use the brakes in a turn are equipped to deal with this in stride. Riders who have spent years believing it is a dangerous mistake to use the brakes in a corner may freak out. That is reason enough to become comfortable with braking in a turn. It's going to come up.

As much as I favor using the controls in agreement with what's best for the machine, sometimes it isn't best for the situation. A quick flick, constant radius line through turn 2 at Laguna is not the fast way through that turn. Sometimes preserving speed deep into a series of turns off a long straight is more important than creating ideal traction for the bike in that first turn. If one rider can pass another on the brakes at a turn entry, it may or may not be the fastest way, but once he's in front, he took the line. These are but a few examples of cases where an informed and skilled rider can decide what is most important in that situation.

As for a "standard" approach to cornering, I like to practice that which agrees with machine design and seems to require more maintenance from a skills perspective. On the street, that's usually a quick-flick approach. Just today, however, I took my son for a spirited ride up Redwood Road and found myself trail braking more than normal. I realized I didn't want to use the viscous quick flick I often use on roads like that with him hanging on for dear life, so I'd turn more slowly and control the attitude of the front suspension with brake pressure transitioning to cornering load. In that situation, it made for a nicer ride for him, while still being pretty entertaining.
 

stangmx13

not Stan
On the street I rarely decelerate past my turn in point. I'll begin to trail-brake when the speed of the group goes up. The only time this has happened in the last few years has been on BARF Rallies. Those are the only times I ride in a more aggressive manner.

Damn near all of my non-commute riding is done at The Pace.

Why don’t u trail brake at lower speed? Do u think u are safer by not doing it? Is it just not necessary and u can conserve something by not doing it?
 
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stangmx13

not Stan
I have rarely evangelized trail braking, feeling that other skills are more important. I do see value in it however and do use it regularly. Everywhere? No.

When learning to ride, I think it's important to understand what control actions in a turn lead to getting the most stability and traction possible out of your particular bike. Bikes are more stable when the rider is slowly rolling on the gas than when s/he is off the gas. It's not a matter of setup. They are all that way. Some setups lead to being better off the gas than others, but it's still true the bike is more stable and offers its best traction with the throttle being rolled on.

Why do u worship stability so?

Are u conflating stability and traction or was that a separate point?
 
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tzrider

Write Only User
Staff member
Why do u worship stability so?

Are u conflating stability and traction or was that a separate point?

Not conflating; they are indeed two separate things. Though a lack of stability can compromise traction, so there is a relationship.
 

T100

*Retired*
I have rarely evangelized trail braking, feeling that other skills are more important. I do see value in it however and do use it regularly. Everywhere? No.

When learning to ride, I think it's important to understand what control actions in a turn lead to getting the most stability and traction possible out of your particular bike. Bikes are more stable when the rider is slowly rolling on the gas than when s/he is off the gas. It's not a matter of setup. They are all that way. Some setups lead to being better off the gas than others, but it's still true the bike is more stable and offers its best traction with the throttle being rolled on.

Many people over the years have proven that to me convincingly. Onboard video and telemetry has proven it time and again. Personally, I prefer the bike to be in that condition for as much of the time as possible, so that's my default approach to setting up corners unless there are other, more important reasons to deviate from that approach.

That approach places demands on the rider. You have to be able to judge entry speed accurately. You have to be able to steer quickly, in the right location and by the right amount. Your throttle timing should be really good. Mistakes in these areas lead to going slower than you might want to (depending on your goal as a rider).

Keith Code wrote about trail braking before any schools were teaching it. He discussed it and taught it to riders in the early days. The CSS curriculum evolved to omit trail braking because many of the other skills seemed to require more attention and coaching to master. Riders were largely figuring out trail braking on their own.

In the meantime, trail braking has become very popular. While it's true the world's top racers use it, they do so in a framework where they have mastered other fundamental skills of going fast too. They know when the bike is in a condition that is best for it and they know sometimes they have to depart from that to the extent they can get away with to gain an advantage in certain situations. Riding schools don't all teach the same things. Sometimes it's as simple as a difference of opinion, sometimes it's because nobody else is addressing a particular aspect of riding and it becomes a market differentiatior. CSS has recently added trail braking back to the curriculum.

Trail braking has a lot of uses. One problem it solves very well is this: Riders who get all the braking done before turn entry frequently reach mid-turn feeling that they could have been going a little faster. When this happens, they may have set their entry speed accurately for their idea of what the target speed should be, but did not take into account that the bike will continue to slow past the turn point until the rider has cracked on the gas and rolled it on to the point where he is no longer slowing down. The rider who trail brakes tends to think naturally about mid-turn speed, knowing that his entry speed is higher than his mid-turn speed will be. It's part of his plan. I think most riders may find it easier to hit a desired mid-turn speed through trail braking than via a quick-flick turn entry.

Sooner or later, we will all need the brakes in a turn, no matter what our standard approach to cornering is. There will be deer. There will be sand. There will be blind decreasing radii. Riders who frequently use the brakes in a turn are equipped to deal with this in stride. Riders who have spent years believing it is a dangerous mistake to use the brakes in a corner may freak out. That is reason enough to become comfortable with braking in a turn. It's going to come up.

As much as I favor using the controls in agreement with what's best for the machine, sometimes it isn't best for the situation. A quick flick, constant radius line through turn 2 at Laguna is not the fast way through that turn. Sometimes preserving speed deep into a series of turns off a long straight is more important than creating ideal traction for the bike in that first turn. If one rider can pass another on the brakes at a turn entry, it may or may not be the fastest way, but once he's in front, he took the line. These are but a few examples of cases where an informed and skilled rider can decide what is most important in that situation.

As for a "standard" approach to cornering, I like to practice that which agrees with machine design and seems to require more maintenance from a skills perspective. On the street, that's usually a quick-flick approach. Just today, however, I took my son for a spirited ride up Redwood Road and found myself trail braking more than normal. I realized I didn't want to use the viscous quick flick I often use on roads like that with him hanging on for dear life, so I'd turn more slowly and control the attitude of the front suspension with brake pressure transitioning to cornering load. In that situation, it made for a nicer ride for him, while still being pretty entertaining.

Very nice. Thanks for this.
 

ontherearwheel

Well-known member
Consider this.....I’m a left for braker.......meaning 90% percent of the time when driving, l use my left foot for braking. When necessary, I cover th brake pedal with my left foot, just like at times covering the brake lever when I ride. It works for me in several ways.........but it not taught in driver ed.

Just because I left foot brake, does this mean those that don’t are lacking skills in being a safe, competent driver? That they are not a complete driver?

I got 65 Corvair with a 4 speed......handles pretty good with the way I have it setup. The pedals are such that heel/toe driving is easy. No problem braking, blimping the throttle for downshifting with my right foot while using left foot for clutch.

Just because I do this, does this mean those that don’t are unskillful drivers?

Would it not be arrogant of me to say so?
 

stangmx13

not Stan
Consider this.....I’m a left for braker.......meaning 90% percent of the time when driving, l use my left foot for braking. When necessary, I cover th brake pedal with my left foot, just like at times covering the brake lever when I ride. It works for me in several ways.........but it not taught in driver ed.

Just because I left foot brake, does this mean those that don’t are lacking skills in being a safe, competent driver? That they are not a complete driver?

I got 65 Corvair with a 4 speed......handles pretty good with the way I have it setup. The pedals are such that heel/toe driving is easy. No problem braking, blimping the throttle for downshifting with my right foot while using left foot for clutch.

Just because I do this, does this mean those that don’t are unskillful drivers?

Would it not be arrogant of me to say so?

Left foot braking in a car isn’t comparable. Invalid analogy. What r the advantages of left foot braking? faster brake application and potential overlap? That’s it. There are far more advantages to trail braking. You making this comparison suggests to me u are being disengenuous or don’t understand why we trail brake.

Yes, a driver that knows how to heel toe knows more skills and could be a better driver than one that doesn’t. Odd comparison there though since we have blipping which is the comparable skill.

One failing of the people bitching about arrogance and the people that might actually be arrogant is their use of terms like good, best, safe, competent, etc. Have u seen me or bud use those terms? Nope. A personal comparison is a lot better. If u master more skills, u will be a better rider.
 

stangmx13

not Stan
Not conflating; they are indeed two separate things. Though a lack of stability can compromise traction, so there is a relationship.

There’s an ok relationship for the rear tire when accelerating, to a point. But the relationship is terrible for the front tire. Braking maximizes front traction, yet that’s one the most unstable situations for a moto.

So ya, I don’t understand why stability seems to be the goal of your riding and your coaching.
 

tzrider

Write Only User
Staff member
There’s an ok relationship for the rear tire when accelerating, to a point. But the relationship is terrible for the front tire. Braking maximizes front traction, yet that’s one the most unstable situations for a moto.

It does increase grip but it also creases cornering load. Once the rider gets back to the gas, not only does weight transfer to the rear but so does cornering load.

You practically never see riders lose the front when they’re rolling on the gas correctly. Most MotoGP crashes are on the brakes these days. Doesn’t make trailbraking wrong, but the risk goes up and people overdo it frequently. Of course the crash bias has a lot to do with rider aids for traction control and none for braking.

From what I see, bikes don’t carry higher lateral loads on the brakes than on the gas, so I often wonder about these claims of higher front end grip. It simply doesn’t matter for your corner speed. It only matters for enabling higher entry speed on a lower line and carrying braking deeper into the corner. It can result in higher mid turn speed to the extent the rider can arrive at that speed more accurately.

As far as preferring stability, it’s simple. Most riders are more confident and ride better when their bikes are stable. A majority of back road crashes I see these days are near the corner entry and a front end tuck. They didn’t happen because the rider was on the gas.

As I said, I see a lot of value in trail braking, but at the same time I think it’s frequently over sold. Just my opinion.
 

stangmx13

not Stan
It does increase grip but it also creases cornering load. Once the rider gets back to the gas, not only does weight transfer to the rear but so does cornering load.

You practically never see riders lose the front when they’re rolling on the gas correctly. Most MotoGP crashes are on the brakes these days. Doesn’t make trailbraking wrong, but the risk goes up and people overdo it frequently. Of course the crash bias has a lot to do with rider aids for traction control and none for braking.

From what I see, bikes don’t carry higher lateral loads on the brakes than on the gas, so I often wonder about these claims of higher front end grip. It simply doesn’t matter for your corner speed. It only matters for enabling higher entry speed on a lower line and carrying braking deeper into the corner. It can result in higher mid turn speed to the extent the rider can arrive at that speed more accurately.

As far as preferring stability, it’s simple. Most riders are more confident and ride better when their bikes are stable. A majority of back road crashes I see these days are near the corner entry and a front end tuck. They didn’t happen because the rider was on the gas.

As I said, I see a lot of value in trail braking, but at the same time I think it’s frequently over sold. Just my opinion.

as long as both tires are on the ground, they aren't sliding, and we are keeping a constant corner radius, they share "cornering load" - and the proportion doesn't change much as the rider changes the line. if they did, the bike would pivot somehow - either by understeering or oversteering. u can imagine what would happen to a motorcycle if u removed a sizable amount of "cornering load" from the front tire mid-corner... low side. camber thrust is the main component of "cornering load" on a moto and its mostly defined by the lean angle of the tire. if u don't change the lean angle, u didnt change the "cornering load". the small changes in chassis attitude due to small throttle applications don't change the tire lean angle nearly at all.

a lot of pro racing crashes happen right when the rider RELEASES the front brake. this is an "under-loaded" crash. the front tire and suspension unload, total grip decreases right when lateral force is maximized, and they go down. the rider doesn't let off the brake suddenly, the suspension is optimized, and they don't necessarily add more lean angle right then. these crashes show that the amount of grip gained by braking is greater than the amount used by braking.

re: lateral load. the above crashes also show that lateral loads can be higher when on the brakes than when neutral, when neither decelerating or accelerating. no good rider will accelerate and increase lateral load. if they did, lean angle would increase - and we all know the pitfalls of that. so lateral load shouldn't be higher accelerating than when braking.

there are pro racing crashes that happen right when the rider tips in, while still on the brakes of course. a lot of them are due to being offline or cold tires, but there are plenty that aren't. the only explanation I have for those is what u already implied - over-loading the front tire. ive noticed that the proportion of these crashes seems to decreases as u go down the totem pole. national series have less overloaded crashes than international series, club racing even less, and trackdays even less.

most of the trackday crashes I see on corner entry happened because the rider wasn't on the brakes. they tried to carry more pace and flick the bike in quickly. the front tire was under-loaded, didnt have enough grip, and down they went. plus, I have plenty of experience w/ the exact same crash. ill go down off the brakes, then later go through the exact corner faster while on the brakes and not crash. as such, I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of backroad frontend crashes were exactly the same. generally, slow riders don't overload the front tire.
 
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flying_hun

Adverse Selection
I recall an interview with Kenny Roberts around the time he retired from managing his GP team, in which he said something to effect that he'd never seen a rider lose the front while on the gas.

Does it prove anything? Not sure, but it seems like an astute observation from someone who knows what he's looking at.

I think it's a useful tool. I also think that saying it should be used everywhere all the time by everyone - as the Canyon Chasers guy does in the video - is just silly.
 

stangmx13

not Stan
I recall an interview with Kenny Roberts around the time he retired from managing his GP team, in which he said something to effect that he'd never seen a rider lose the front while on the gas.

Does it prove anything? Not sure, but it seems like an astute observation from someone who knows what he's looking at.

He was wrong. It happens. Even the fact that it occurs infrequently doesn’t prove anything about trail braking. Bringing it up is just what-about-ism.
 

budman

General Menace
Staff member
I think it's a useful tool. I also think that saying it should be used everywhere all the time by everyone - as the Canyon Chasers guy does in the video - is just silly.

I would agree. I can be used all the time but like most techniques all the time is not applicable other than the basics. Eyes, awareness and experienced based intuition.

The vid presents some good factual information and that outways a bit of hyperbole. Them coming from a very slanted canyon carving spr0tbile aspect I get it and honestly passed right over it.
 

tzrider

Write Only User
Staff member
He was wrong. It happens. Even the fact that it occurs infrequently doesn’t prove anything about trail braking. Bringing it up is just what-about-ism.

I don’t agree with you on this point. We run no brakes drills (have for decades) and riders do not lose the front turning in with no brakes. This is true at all skill levels, including national championship riders.

Whatever you have observed isn’t because the rider was off the brakes. They may have been on the gas, which can cause a variety of traction loss problems at either the front or the rear. On the matter of falling when releasing the brakes, ifthat were the cause, the rider is basically fucked, because they have to let go of the brakes at some point. The most likely cause I can think of is the rider has pressure on the inside bar because he is still steering. If he lets off the brakes, the resistance to tipping in suddenly goes away and the rider could inadvertently steer the bike too much, not expecting the resistance to change.

Like Roberts, on clean, dry pavement with tires n good shape, I have not seen a rider throw the front away by steering while off the brakes. We have had our own coaches deliberately try, including a crazy quick flick on the gas going into the gravity cavity at Road Atlanta flat out in sixth. The front pushed but once leaned over it stuck and turned in. We see riders crash on the brakes all the time.
 

Gary856

Are we having fun yet?
1. The video in the OP is a repost of this:

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=527184


2. Regarding the opening statement of the video: “Some people say that trail braking should only be done on the race track, but stick around, we’re going to explain why you should be trail braking everywhere.”

By "everywhere" I don't think he meant "in every corner". Instead, "everywhere" in that sentence just means the technique is applicable not only on the race track, but off the track too.


3. This article "quick-steering vs. trail braking" explains why one does not use trail braking "all the time". It's just one of the tools in the tool box. They also apply both on and off the track.

https://lifeatlean.com/quick-steering-vs-trail-braking/
 
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ontherearwheel

Well-known member
1. The video in the OP is a repost of this:

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=527184


2. Regarding the opening statement of the video: “Some people say that trail braking should only be done on the race track, but stick around, we’re going to explain why you should be trail braking everywhere.”

By "everywhere" I don't think he meant "in every corner". Instead, "everywhere" in that sentence just means the technique is applicable not only on the race track, but off the track too.


3. This article "quick-steering vs. trail braking" explains why one does not use trail braking "all the time". It's just one of the tools in the tool box. They also apply both on and off the track.

https://lifeatlean.com/quick-steering-vs-trail-braking/

Then he is not very good at making training videos.......he stated everywhere......what’s a person to think when a person makes that kinda of statement?

Now if the opening statement was more like about the value of learning trail braking in order to ride faster on the street....which is really what he is talking about.....that’s different. I rode yesterday......not once trail braked......cause I was going a sane street speed and could use the motor and throttle to control my corner speeds......now if I started to push towards insane street speeds, yep,you bet I would be trail braking.

Learn this along time ago......Say what you mean, mean what you stay.
 

tzrider

Write Only User
Staff member
I rode yesterday......not once trail braked......cause I was going a sane street speed and could use the motor and throttle to control my corner speeds......now if I started to push towards insane street speeds, yep,you bet I would be trail braking.

It’s not necessary to ride at insane speeds to trail brake. You really just need to enter the turn a little faster that you plan to rider the turn. IOW, if it’s a braking turn, you just wait longer to brake.

Plenty of riders employ trail braking at speeds that are reasonable for the street.
 

stangmx13

not Stan
I don’t agree with you on this point. We run no brakes drills (have for decades) and riders do not lose the front turning in with no brakes. This is true at all skill levels, including national championship riders.

Whatever you have observed isn’t because the rider was off the brakes. They may have been on the gas, which can cause a variety of traction loss problems at either the front or the rear. On the matter of falling when releasing the brakes, ifthat were the cause, the rider is basically fucked, because they have to let go of the brakes at some point. The most likely cause I can think of is the rider has pressure on the inside bar because he is still steering. If he lets off the brakes, the resistance to tipping in suddenly goes away and the rider could inadvertently steer the bike too much, not expecting the resistance to change.

Like Roberts, on clean, dry pavement with tires n good shape, I have not seen a rider throw the front away by steering while off the brakes. We have had our own coaches deliberately try, including a crazy quick flick on the gas going into the gravity cavity at Road Atlanta flat out in sixth. The front pushed but once leaned over it stuck and turned in. We see riders crash on the brakes all the time.

im not sure what u are trying to accomplish with this post. uve said that ppl can not crash by turning in with maintenance throttle. and uve said that ppl can crash by turning in on the brakes. we already know that. it doesnt address much ive said before and i dont see a good comparison.

re the bolded part, u are incorrect and it suggests a lack of understanding. said rider has 1 great option that would prevent them from crashing and might help them do the corner "better". they can keep holding the brake!!! their speed continues to decrease until its equal to something that wont cause them to crash. their radius continues to tighten as they slow, so its not guaranteed theyd even run wide. then they let go of the brake at their lower speed and finish the corner.

all your comparisons of turning in with maintenance throttle and off the brakes are a bit off in this post because of 1 important thing: the maximum speed one could be traveling when turning in at maintenance throttle is LOWER than turning in on the brakes. every good road racer on the planet knows this. if it wasnt true, racers wouldnt trail brake. a good rider will have the same minimum corner speed no matter their approach. but when u turn in at maintenance throttle, your turn in speed must be your minimum corner speed. you arent decelerating, so u gotta go that speed already. and if its higher than the maximum speed allowed by the corner, u crash. but if u are braking at turn in, your speed will be higher than your minimum corner speed and can be higher than the maximum speed allowed by the corner. racers dont make up time AT the apex - they make it up just before and just after.

this concept is one good reason why you "cant" get people to crash turning in at maintenance throttle and why u see more crashes turning in on the brakes. and its what can make trail braking more "risky". u can turn in with more speed, so u do. if u judged it wrong or have deficient skills, the extra speed makes it easier to crash. but thats not really what this thread was originally about. it was about street riding, going slower than the effective limit but being safer anyways. since a racer can turn in at a higher speed while on the brakes, they must have more total and lateral grip available. since this is true at all speeds, even a street rider cruising along will also have more grip available should they trail brake.
 

tzrider

Write Only User
Staff member
im not sure what u are trying to accomplish with this post. uve said that ppl can not crash by turning in with maintenance throttle.

I'd like to address more of your post, but first we need to get one thing out of the way: I do not ever advocate turning in on "maintenance throttle," despite recounting one anecdote in which one of our staff did that. As long as you have that understanding of what I've said, we won't get anywhere. Let's be clear that it is not my contention that people cannot lose the front while steering with the gas on. It is my contention that by braking, releasing the brakes, steering and beginning to slowly roll on the gas, the rider is at least risk for losing the front at the turn entry.
 
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