The trail braking thread

[budman]

This has come up here now and again in different threads and I thought perhaps having a thread that explained it a bit better might be good.

This video does a pretty good job of explaining how it works and why.
The tip on slow action on the brake lever to get that into muscle memory is cool. I have often not done that rolling my bike around. :laughing


youtu.be/gPE67XqGsV4

I am an avid trail braker (front only 99% of the time). Coming from a MX racing to road racing I had to overcome the natural tendency to go to the rear brake. I actually set my rear brake to not work at all until I had a full inch of pressure on it, just so those quick automatic taps did not activate it. It did not take to long to overcome it, but it was more than a few races.

Even dirt bike riding uses trail braking on the front at times and while I basically really learned it at the track I use it on the street a lot. Like the vid says a soft feel on the brake is the key. Treat the lever like it will break in the beginning is really a safer way to try the technique, which I consider an advanced one. You won't get taught to do this in the CMSP class, but you will find it at CA Superbike School for example where Keith Code is a huge proponent. Heck he will tell you that using the rear is very advanced technique and risky.

Enjoy the video and if you don't do it now it is something to be taken with baby steps, specially on the street.

 

[stangmx13]

wow, great vid.

 

[RRrider]

:thumbup
nice summary. Thanks Budman!

 

[ggwill]

I used to coast into my corners because the MSF course always taught me to get all my braking done before the corner. I recently gave trail braking a try, although I'm not super good at it yet, and I already feel a bit more control and confidence in my corners.

 

[budman]

Cool Will. It comes naturally with experience.

However acknowledging it and applying it carefully makes a difference. Basically all racers do it. No reason street riders should not either. Just takes some thought and solid application.

Keith explained it to me this way. The goal is to let the brake off so here is no change to the front suspension level. No up/ down fork action. Smooth is faster and safer.

 

[Outta Control]

Thanks for the video BM.

Though informative, this is another video series that questions any of the formal beginner rider school. Bottom line is they fail understand the premise or concept behind why we instructors/ridercoaches use the "slow, look, turn, roll" technique.

 

[Enchanter]

I used to coast into my corners because the MSF course always taught me to get all my braking done before the corner. I recently gave trail braking a try, although I'm not super good at it yet, and I already feel a bit more control and confidence in my corners.

Coasting into corners makes most riders feel uncomfortable. It is not a recommended or safe technique.

And just to clarify: the MSF and TCT curriculum does not recommend "coasting into corners". Complete your slowing before turning (in a straight line), then at the beginning of the turn gently roll on the throttle to maintain or gradually increase your speed.

 

[Outta Control]

... gently roll on the throttle to maintain or gradually increase your speed.

Bingo!

 

[Aware]

Thanks for the video BM.

Though informative, this is another video series that questions any of the formal beginner rider school. Bottom line is they fail understand the premise or concept behind why we instructors/ridercoaches use the "slow, look, turn, roll" technique.

Yeah I don't think anyone is deluded into thinking beginner training is not necessary. But for most people, it seems there's no further training beyond that. It's not the best lifelong way to ride, yet they may never know that. From that perspective, allowing beginners to think they know the right method is a terrible disservice.

 

[Outta Control]

Yeah I don't think anyone is deluded into thinking beginner training is not necessary. But for most people, it seems there's no further training beyond that. It's not the best lifelong way to ride, yet they may never know that. From that perspective, allowing beginners to think they know the right method is a terrible disservice.

That is inaccurate. CMSP, particularly TCT's program clearly discuss the topic of the next steps once they become more comfortable to ride.

In fact, there is a classroom section that discusses, "What's Next".

 

[Enchanter]

Yeah I don't think anyone is deluded into thinking beginner training is not necessary. But for most people, it seems there's no further training beyond that. It's not the best lifelong way to ride, yet they may never know that. From that perspective, allowing beginners to think they know the right method is a terrible disservice.

The curriculum of the MSF and TCT have always included the suggestion / recommendation to continue learning by taking additional courses (offered by anyone). The issue is that most people have no desire to participate in more courses when they already know how to ride. The problem isn't with the curriculum, it's the with the participants.

 

[Outta Control]

The curriculum of the MSF and TCT have always included the suggestion / recommendation to continue learning by taking additional courses (offered by anyone). The issue is that most people have no desire to participate in more courses when they already know how to ride. The problem isn't with the curriculum, it's the with the participants.

Bingo again.

 

[stangmx13]

Thanks for the video BM.

Though informative, this is another video series that questions any of the formal beginner rider school. Bottom line is they fail understand the premise or concept behind why we instructors/ridercoaches use the "slow, look, turn, roll" technique.

I don’t agree. We can’t say they fail to understand something they literally didn’t address.

IMO, One great thing about this vid is the stuff they left out, the ideas they didn’t challenge because it would detract from their points and just evoke a pointless debate.

 

[Aware]

The curriculum of the MSF and TCT have always included the suggestion / recommendation to continue learning by taking additional courses (offered by anyone). The issue is that most people have no desire to participate in more courses when they already know how to ride. The problem isn't with the curriculum, it's the with the participants.

Students walk away half trained. In other countries they wouldn't have a license yet. You are defending doing half the job, which is why the job gets the criticism it attracts.

 

[flying_hun]

I think trail braking is a valuable tool to master and to have in the tool box. At the same time, I think the video really over sells it, and they prescribe it as the solution for issues that might better be solved by improving one's skills at reading the road.

 

[budman]

Interesting to me you guys see different things than I.
I heard a comment about the CSMP basic cornering technique. It did not take away from it rather it added a variable where this could be better in certain corners.

I did not take it as a sales job either. It rightly points out there are some benefits to using it and they showed them. If your a sporting rider your going to want to know how to do this. If you want to be a more complete rider same deal.

 

[Enchanter]

Students walk away half trained. In other countries they wouldn't have a license yet. You are defending doing half the job, which is why the job gets the criticism it attracts.

When it came to that reply, I wasn't defending anything. I simply addressed your incorrect statement.

The following could be interpreted as defending the curriculum, but dismissing it as that would be missing the point.

Blaming the curriculum is a bit misguided. It is a bigger issue than that. It's cultural. Apparently you feel that anything less than the training you received outside the US, is not enough. While I may agree with you in some instances, a rider from Japan could also have a similar opinion regarding your training. Which rider is correct?

Let's remember that beginner rider training in the US optional. For those that do want to attend, it becomes a delicate balance between $ and time. $280 / 15hrs, is the upper limit for 90% of the people (in the US). If the price went up, less people would attend. As I stated previously, once people here know how to squeeze that thing, press this one, and roll on the other, they think they know how to ride. This isn't restricted to motorcycling (in the US), we have the same problem with

Also consider that improper operation of the controls isn't the biggest cause of motorcycle crashes. Crashes are primarily an issue of incorrect judgement. You cannot teach someone correct judgement in a classroom / riding session. By the mid point of the class, most students aren't looking forward to learning more, they are looking forward to the end of the class, and their learning (and retention) suffer.

I've been doing this a long time and am well aware of the shortcomings of the curriculum(s). Trail-braking is a fantastic skill, but in the case of novice training, we'd better serve them by focusing on a reduction in entry speed, and a better visual lead (looking farther ahead) than to tell them that they should trail-brake in every single turn.

Aware, when was the last time you attended follow-on formal training (a street focused class)?

 

[Enchanter]

Interesting to me you guys see different things that I.
I heard a comment about the CSMP basic cornering technique. It did not take away from it rather it added a variable where this could be better in certain corners.

I did not take it as a sales job either. It rightly points out there are some benefits to using it and they showed them.

The vid tells people that they should be trail-braking into every turn. That is in direct conflict with current novice rider training in the US.

(The following is not directed at you Bud)

We should remember that most riders simply do not move past the novice skill-set. It is my opinion that the beginner curriculum(s) offered in the US are aimed at these riders. The lowest common denominator gets the focus.

Training facilities have always struggled to fill the more advanced classes. When I was running the Mountain View CMSP facility (2002-2012) we taught about 1100 novices each year. In that same period of time we taught 24 or less in advanced courses. I was willing to cancel a novice course to conduct advance training, but riders simply do not see the need to attend follow-on training and will not sign up.

Sportbike riders think that the track is the only place to learn more. As addressed previously, riders of other motorcycles think they don't need additional training because they already know how to ride. You know what group seeks out training? Gold Wing Riders. Yup. They understand that riding skills are perishable. Most of the advanced courses held in Mountain View were for the Gold Wing Riders Club.

 

[budman]

I guess it does say that you should be into every corner. First thing actually. :laughing My bad.

I did not intend to have this be a conflict with the novice training. My intention of course it to share some advanced techniques that I believe are a benefit to riders.

Interesting comment on who is getting advanced training.
Certainly there are a lot of different goals in motorcycling.

A commuter vs. canyon carver vs. tourer vs. track guy, MX guy etc. there are a few techniques that apply to each and some skills that are more specific to certain aspects. This one happens to be applicable to all in varying degrees.

 

[Outta Control]

...Sportbike riders think that the track is the only place to learn more....

Yup, Absolutely right, and I concur. I too have heard and experienced this type of attitude from students.

... You know what group seeks out training? Gold Wing Riders. Yup. They understand that riding skills are perishable. Most of the advanced courses held in Mountain View were for the Gold Wing Riders Club.

When I was the lead instructor Springfield, MO, I taught ERC to the Ozark Gold Wing Club. I did have very few sportbike riders, but they pale in comparison.

I was told that this was a yearly requirement for club members.

Again, E, you nailed it to what I have experienced.