The trail braking thread

[stangmx13]

if u are trail braking, u must have some weight on your arms and the bars.
1. its impossible to brake hard and not weight the bars.
2. trail braking itself produces a torque around the steering axis that causes the front wheel to turn in. this would normally stand the bike up, which is bad for corner entry. so u must apply a steering force to the bars to counteract this.

the crux of the situation is how much do u weight the bars and when. to put it very simply, the less u are braking, the less u should weight the bars. its ez to forget this part and keep that inner arm stiff mid-corner, which will run u a little wide. but if u are completely vertical and need to brake HARD, go ahead - weight the bars.

as for upper body movement, a bunch of good rider coaches recommend lowering your head with lean angle application. this offers a few advantages. its easier to control the bars, brakes, and throttle if u are more centered and your head is up, so u start there. then as u apply lean angle and come off the brakes, the bars get weighted less so u can lower your upper body and still be in control. that way u move some mass inwards and increase your effective lean angle.

one important thing about side-to-side movement of your whole body - do not accomplish this by pulling on the bars. doing so is a great way to upset the front end, especially during transitions. almost all body movements should start by pushing on a footpeg and/or pulling on the tank. the faster u get, the more important this becomes.

and now we are off topic. oh wells.

 

[Smash Allen]

if u are trail braking, u must have some weight on your arms and the bars.
1. its impossible to brake hard and not weight the bars.
2. trail braking itself produces a torque around the steering axis that causes the front wheel to turn in. this would normally stand the bike up, which is bad for corner entry. so u must apply a steering force to the bars to counteract this.

the crux of the situation is how much do u weight the bars and when. to put it very simply, the less u are braking, the less u should weight the bars. its ez to forget this part and keep that inner arm stiff mid-corner, which will run u a little wide. but if u are completely vertical and need to brake HARD, go ahead - weight the bars.

as for upper body movement, a bunch of good rider coaches recommend lowering your head with lean angle application. this offers a few advantages. its easier to control the bars, brakes, and throttle if u are more centered and your head is up, so u start there. then as u apply lean angle and come off the brakes, the bars get weighted less so u can lower your upper body and still be in control. that way u move some mass inwards and increase your effective lean angle.

one important thing about side-to-side movement of your whole body - do not accomplish this by pulling on the bars. doing so is a great way to upset the front end, especially during transitions. almost all body movements should start by pushing on a footpeg and/or pulling on the tank. the faster u get, the more important this becomes.

This does explain a lot, Rob, I want to thank you for your feedback

I think that I am weighting the inside bar partly because I'm still carrying a good amount of front brake on turn in

I think that I need to brake more vertical and taper off sooner, as I turn in. Do you turn in at max pressure? What is the general relationship / timing? Let off a bit then turn, or turn then let off? I think I'm mixed up

yea off topiic a biiit but not too much..talking about the far other end of trail braking lol

 

[stangmx13]

This does explain a lot, Rob, I want to thank you for your feedback

I think that I am weighting the inside bar partly because I'm still carrying a good amount of front brake on turn in

I think that I need to brake more vertical and taper off sooner, as I turn in. Do you turn in at max pressure?

braking too little after turn-in is another good way to run wide. the front end sits higher, your wheelbase extends, your speed doesn't come down enough - all cause your turning radius to not decrease enough and u probably miss your apex.

the now classic way to learn better trail braking and how it affects cornering is "lighter longer". brake at the same marker, but don't go to your max. hold the lever a little lighter, and keep holding all the way to the apex. im sure Ken Hill has a podcast or 10 on this.

ya, sometimes I turn in at max brake pressure. but I kinda suck at hard late braking. im much better at braking a little sooner and holding it to the apex. when I try to brake later, I end up rushing the corner and missing my apex.

when u turn-in in relation to when u start to trail really depends on the corner. heres Turns 2-4 from a mediocre lap of mine at Laguna, a 1:32.6. red is deceleration in G's, green is lean angle.

there are a bunch of things to notice in that graph.
- I turn in for T2 at 80% of my max
- my max brake pressure for T2 wasn't high enough. should be 1.2g, not 1g
- I don't hold max for T2 at all, it trails too soon
- my brake applications for T2 is smooth but def too slow. it took me >250ft to build to max. thats probably almost 2 seconds to pull the lever all the way.
- I start braking for T3 almost 200ft after turning in
- theres some delay in applying lean angle when I start braking in T3
- I start braking for T4 the instant I turn in.
- my max lean angle almost coincides with being off the brakes for all turns, suggesting im braking all the way to the apex.

essentially, I screwed up the braking for T2 big time. I likely braked too early, too lightly, and trailed too soon. I might have been good for T3 and T4. id have to add in the acceleration graph to really know if I did well in those two.

 

[Outta Control]

... Then Frozen Custard for all of us.

Fixed.

 

[raymond_h2002]

Let's review the film:

body shift late, STIFF inner arm (looks to be using arms to hold body in place). Other than that, Chris, your lines are good, but for racing they're an open invitation to make a stupid pass on you. Oh one more thing eyes up off the apex (at least scanning up the track) once you start the turn in. That'll help with the missed/ lazy apex. That's only from my T10 film and Gordo had just gone by, so that may have altered some of your turn in points. Let me know when you're TD'ing it and we'll go ride...but by God's hand, NOT in this heat.

Got a link to this video? I wanna learn too!

Really appreciate this discussion/thread, btw.

- Raymond

 

[Smash Allen]

youtu.be/FwZkz3vFlhs

 

[stangmx13]

with that turn-in rate and amount of brake, u are late on nearly every turn-in. thats why u are wide of most apexes.

there are 3 solutions: turn-in sooner, turn-in quicker, or brake deeper/harder. the easiest and least risky is prob turn-in sooner. the fastest way and most difficult is go faster and brake deeper. turn-in quicker is in btw. in the end, I think ull need some combination of all 3 for every corner.

... and once u cut a chunk of time, all 3 of those things will have to change once again

 

[Smash Allen]

with that turn-in rate and amount of brake, u are late on nearly every turn-in. thats why u are wide of most apexes.

there are 3 solutions: turn-in sooner, turn-in quicker, or brake deeper/harder. the easiest and least risky is prob turn-in sooner. the fastest way and most difficult is go faster and brake deeper. turn-in quicker is in btw. in the end, I think ull need some combination of all 3 for every corner.

... and once u cut a chunk of time, all 3 of those things will have to change once again

i like the sound of all of them, i'll be able to brake harder and deeper with no linked brakes or abs

all the strength work i do with my core and legs is useless if i don't use them when i'm on track! i need to listen to that ken hill podcast again on core engagement that will help me turn quicker and keep my inside arm more relaxed

https://soundcloud.com/ken-hill-534763963/ken-hill-podcast-49-c-2017

 

[tzrider]

with that turn-in rate and amount of brake, u are late on nearly every turn-in. thats why u are wide of most apexes.

there are 3 solutions: turn-in sooner, turn-in quicker, or brake deeper/harder. the easiest and least risky is prob turn-in sooner. the fastest way and most difficult is go faster and brake deeper. turn-in quicker is in btw. in the end, I think ull need some combination of all 3 for every corner.

... and once u cut a chunk of time, all 3 of those things will have to change once again

At the risk of taking this too far off topic, I wonder something more fundamental: What are you looking at the moment you steer the bike?

A lot of riders ether stare at their turn point until they arrive there or look into the turn a little too late. Apart from what you do with the controls, you need two things to consistently hit an apex:

1. An apex reference point
2. To be looking at that RP before you steer

If you don't already have markers for apex points, find some. Once you have them, make sure you are looking at them before you steer. If you cannot see your apex from the entry, find something that is on your intended line that you can see from the entry.

It takes us about a half second to see something and initiate a physical response to it. If you are closer than a half second to your turn point when you look at the mid turn point (your target) you don't have enough time to make an accurate steering input. You will only be able to approximate your steering. When riders make this error, they nearly always run wide; they rarely turn too much.

This is going to be true no matter what turn entry approach you choose.

 

[Smash Allen]

At the risk of taking this too far off topic, I wonder something more fundamental: What are you looking at the moment you steer the bike?

A lot of riders ether stare at their turn point until they arrive there or look into the turn a little too late. Apart from what you do with the controls, you need two things to consistently hit an apex:

1. An apex reference point
2. To be looking at that RP before you steer

If you don't already have markers for apex points, find some. Once you have them, make sure you are looking at them before you steer. If you cannot see your apex from the entry, find something that is on your intended line that you can see from the entry.

It takes us about a half second to see something and initiate a physical response to it. If you are closer than a half second to your turn point when you look at the mid turn point (your target) you don't have enough time to make an accurate steering input. You will only be able to approximate your steering. When riders make this error, they nearly always run wide; they rarely turn too much.

This is going to be true no matter what turn entry approach you choose.

this really rings true to me...i'm not consistently looking at the apex before turning...i'm focused on slowing down before my turn in point...in order to increase the pace, i have to look/see the markers even sooner...seeing / getting to my markers feels slower sometimes, i have trouble differentiating between the 'good slow' feeling and 'i'm shitting this lap slow' feeling :laughing

 

[kevingraehl]

great video.. proves what i've always felt

 

[Holeshot]

this really rings true to me...i'm not consistently looking at the apex before turning...i'm focused on slowing down before my turn in point...in order to increase the pace, i have to look/see the markers even sooner...seeing / getting to my markers feels slower sometimes, i have trouble differentiating between the 'good slow' feeling and 'i'm shitting this lap slow' feeling :laughing

Which probably is indicative of not looking down the track far enough before hitting your braking point and not using the brake lever to take you to the apex. By "using the brake lever" I'm referring to exactly the title of this thread: trail braking. Looking where you want to go is probably the most important thing in any precision movement activity.

I believe in moving your eyes. On entry they go from braking marker/ straight ahead to the apex and back and forth as needed. If you stare at the apex and don't look back to the direction you're traveling, you'll begin turning in at that point and as we know, you want to get the majority of your braking down when straight up and down...this is especially true for less experienced riders on the track/ in a hectic environment (racing).

After your lean angle is set to take you to the apex, your eyes should be focused on the apex and trying to find your exit. Don't forget to try and keep tabs on where other bikes may be around you.

 

[Smash Allen]

Is it a thing to keep your eyes further ahead but switch your 'focus' back closer in your peripheral to make sure you are where you need to be? Or do I need to be only twitching my eyes? I have been practicing to twitch to the next marker when I can see it and leave my eyes there but move my focus back to make sure i'm still on line.

Your earlier comment about a stiff inner arm is accurate, and I consciously realize now that turning the bike requires the wheel to be able to turn towards the inside of the turn. 'Shit I'm missing my apex, better push more on that inside arm' is all kinds of wrong...I need to relax and let the wheel turn in...

 

[stangmx13]

Ive been getting a tow occasionally during MotoAmerica QP. they are usually successful at knocking a few tenths off of my times. I asked a rider coach about it and they said the most common difference is vision. when riding by yourself, you look down at markers and apexes. when following and trying to latch on, you look up at the other rider who is usually further ahead than your markers in a QP setting.

when im really moving, I don't find that I switch my vision all that much. its nearly always ahead. I see my braking marker coming and notice where it is and when I need to brake. then before I even get there, my eyes are already past it. same goes with apexes. I know im on line or what adjustments I need to make before I get to my apex, so theres no need to stare at it or keep checking it by switching*. its like my eyes are at least 1/2 a step past the next marker.

im still working on doing this every lap. its also good for me to type it out, to better realize what makes me faster.

*there is skill in knowing what adjustments to make and trusting that they are going to work. less experienced riders might not have these skills. I imagine the trust comes with time. knowing what adjustments to make is a large part of this convo.

 

[tzrider]

when im really moving, I don't find that I switch my vision all that much. its nearly always ahead. I see my braking marker coming and notice where it is and when I need to brake. then before I even get there, my eyes are already past it. same goes with apexes.

I think this is the best approach. Additionally, maintaining a wide field of view helps to reduce eye movement and "slow the scene down" a bit.

Keith Code wrote an article for Motorcyclist in 2015 that describes saccadic masking, a phenomenon where our brains suppress visual input while our eyes dart from one point to another. The crux of it is, while our eyes move quickly, we are blind. With each eye movement, we lose a minimum of .35 seconds of visual information, taking into account the saccadic masking and refocusing on the new point. You can observe this masking in action by standing close to a mirror and staring at your right eye. The glance to your left eye. You will not see your own eyes move.

The bottom line is that moving the eyes back and forth comes at a pretty significant cost.

More detail at Motorcyclist Online.

 

[stangmx13]

:thumbup

 

[budman]

I heard Keith discuss that during his recent visit with Doc Wong.

I have been experimenting with slowing my eye movements while riding.
The jist is I do want to look for debris on the road closer to my line and don't feel good about looking well up the road constantly. The road is not a race track and each ride is my only lap so to speak

It seems to work fine actually.

 

[Smash Allen]

Ive been getting a tow occasionally during MotoAmerica QP. they are usually successful at knocking a few tenths off of my times. I asked a rider coach about it and they said the most common difference is vision. when riding by yourself, you look down at markers and apexes. when following and trying to latch on, you look up at the other rider who is usually further ahead than your markers in a QP setting.

when im really moving, I don't find that I switch my vision all that much. its nearly always ahead. I see my braking marker coming and notice where it is and when I need to brake. then before I even get there, my eyes are already past it. same goes with apexes. I know im on line or what adjustments I need to make before I get to my apex, so theres no need to stare at it or keep checking it by switching*. its like my eyes are at least 1/2 a step past the next marker.

im still working on doing this every lap. its also good for me to type it out, to better realize what makes me faster.

*there is skill in knowing what adjustments to make and trusting that they are going to work. less experienced riders might not have these skills. I imagine the trust comes with time. knowing what adjustments to make is a large part of this convo.

this goes with what i am thinking, thanks for posting, as always :teeth looking forward to this weekend

I think this is the best approach. Additionally, maintaining a wide field of view helps to reduce eye movement and "slow the scene down" a bit.

Keith Code wrote an article for Motorcyclist in 2015 that describes saccadic masking, a phenomenon where our brains suppress visual input while our eyes dart from one point to another. The crux of it is, while our eyes move quickly, we are blind. With each eye movement, we lose a minimum of .35 seconds of visual information, taking into account the saccadic masking and refocusing on the new point. You can observe this masking in action by standing close to a mirror and staring at your right eye. The glance to your left eye. You will not see your own eyes move.

The bottom line is that moving the eyes back and forth comes at a pretty significant cost.

More detail at Motorcyclist Online.

dylan code posted a video on the s1krr forums with a camera looking at a professional racer's eye during a hot lap. i never saw it 'twitch' or even blink, just slowly moving around 2/3 of the socket

thanks for posting, i often get goosebumps reading your posts andy, to me that means it strikes a chord and i should listen :ride

 

[Holeshot]

For once, 3 in agreement. I like Ross Bentley's explanations too: the eyes take you to where you want to go.

https://speedsecrets.com/driving-tips/how-performance-drivers-use-their-vision/