RRW - The Rookie papers...what a disaster!

[TWF]

it is on long run.
if you are good you will get to point of spending less or getting paid sooner.

 

[TWF]

Again, Zoran, why not look at the data when the fast boys were playing the 125 game in AFM.... Naaaaaa that would be counter productive to the cause man... real data means nothin.... :cool

where is it.
fact is that F4 or 650 is more competitive and one will learn more running it.

 

[420]

On a R1 racebike, I've used 1 front and 3 rears for the past 3 AFM weekends. Granted, I'm struggling, barely touching on 46's... but Rob Mesa has used 1 front and 4 rears, including two trackdays at Miller and he is hauling a$$. So you're saying you burn up 3 fronts and 6 rears on a 600 during those same three weekends??? Hmmm, sounds like somebody's got money to burn... wanna try Michelins?? :laughing And take your $3,200 "extra cash", drive to Road Atlanta and back, then Miller and back (for those "prestigious nationals") and you easily burned up the extra money.

In general, I would agree with you that it's cheaper to run a 125 for a season at LOCAL races, but as soon as you try to follow the so-called "nationals" with USGPRU, the pricetag just skyrocketed!

Alex I was going to put in that the ratios may vary, but the fact remains, YOU USE MORE TIRES on a big bike AND they cost more. There just is no getting around that, sorry. I may do some creative tire swaping on the 125 and buy a set every other weekend, and I may stretch my 600 tires out to 2 fronts and 3 rears for 3 weekends.

Just out of curiosity your telling me that Rob has used 1 front for 9 races and 5 track days (3 races per Sunday + 3 Sat practices + 2 track days). So thats about 4 sessions per track day + 9 races = 29 sessions of about 8 laps each = 232 laps. I may just switch to Michelins!!!!!!! Thats f'in phenomenal!!!!

 

[TWF]

I assume your telling us all that 600s are cheaper to turn into really fast race bikes than 125s. At least thats the way it sounds.

Jay,
you see all this names in my signature?
are you getting same support on 125?
I still have money left on my michelin card from last season winnings.and that is after paying for tires.

 

[joe]

Just to answer that portion, yes, Rob has used that tire for a long time. And, for those of us going slower, we get just as much time and probably more laps out of those Michelin 16.5 fronts (I'll my front for 3 race weekends and probably three or so trackdays before I pull it off).

 

[420]

Yes Zoran I could throw that many names behind the Sig if needed, as you know its the rider not the bike that gets the sponsorships...

But onto important topics.. Thats alot of laps out of a front. Thats even alot of laps out of 4 rears. Congrats to Michelin!! Thats great results! Pm me when you get a chance Alex.

I have some learning to do on what I can do on these big bike tires, how long they'll last, how much they'll slide, how much I can push them, when do they start to fall off, when are they completely done, etc.... Quite the learning process, but fun....
Maybe, I'll even be fast on this big bike one day also...

Thanks for the entertainment boys, but I thinks it time to club this horse....

 

[dgrace]

...is still saving ~ $3200 and thats alot of travel money!!

Depending on where you assume your hypothetical young racer lives, you could easily eat up that travel money going to Phoenix, Vegas, WSIR, Utah etc. as opposed to Sears and Thunderhill, especially at $3.50 a gallon. And we're sort of assuming that Dad taking off Friday from work to drive out to Utah doesn't cost anything, which isn't really true.

dave

 

[Holeshot]

Jay, maybe enlist a financial consultant for those 600 numbers?

Here's my numbers:

Race bike (2006 R6 or 2006 GSX-R600) Race prepped and ready to go: $9500

Weekend costs are as follows:

entry: $245 (2 races and 1 practice)
Tires: $360 (1 front 1 Rear...I have no idea why you're using two rears)
Oil: $60 (with filter)
U4: $55

That's $720.

Also, FWIW, you don't need to do an engine refresh mid season if you don't want to. Suspension refresh is important mid season. The bike spec'd is with Ohlins cartridges front/ Ohlins shock rear.

This is for an AFM weekend. An AMA weekend is substantially more.

Edit, don't forget to add back contingency as well in 600 class.

 

[NSR250SP]

(in a Larry the Cable Guy tone): Now that right there is crazy talk!! :laughing

Do you have ANY idea how much it costs the family of a young racer to even ATTEND a Mid-Ohio race??? For the money that family spends on taking time off work, fuel, motels, etc. to do ONE race with the USGPRU they can probably do SEVERAL races with their LOCAL club and still have money left over. And with their local club, they often compete against AMA regulars. Bobby Fong beating Chris Siglin or Ken Hill or Jeff Tigert raises a lot of eyebrows. That's because those guys are KNOW quantities, everybody knows they're FAST! A relatively unknown 14 year old beating another relatively unknown 14 year old just doesn't tell you very much. Are they both really great or do they both just suck and one of them just happens to suck a little less??

Forget the 600s for a moment. Tell the local kid with a 125 to come out and race AFM for a fraction of the cost of a USGPRU weekend. When that kid spanks Carlos or Peter or some of the other really fast 125 riders, he WILL get attention and have a bunch of money left over to do trackdays and/or get a better bike. Pretending that you just have to go fast on a 125 in a USGPRU race and then you'll get picked up by MotoGP is friggin nuts! There are exponentially more pro rides on 600s than there are MotoGP 125 rides, even considering the Rookies Cup.

Alex your fogetting one small thing. And trust me, I don't want to be the one to tell you this, but the AFM means nothing once you leave the confines of northern cali. The problem with the AFM is that it's a very local club race scene, and the lack of press the riders gets means people on the outside of the AFM pretty much know nothing about the majority of the up and coming riders.

if a new rider on any kind of bike wants to get exposure they need to go to a club that gets press and gets national press. THat means somethign like WERA, CCS, USGPRU (yes, they even get press cause they push it out there).

The worst thing a fast up and coming rider in northern cali could do is to stay only racing AFM. Yes they will make a name for themselves within the club, on BARF, and possible get a mid pack finish at a couple of local AMA races, but beyond that the lack of exposure will get them nothing.

Add into running the AFM, running WERA, CCS, WSMC, USGPRU then maybe your talking. But as you pointed out that costs money to do.

Let's review the current AMA grid. Where are the AFM riders every weekend? Not on the front and definitly not at every race. It's WERA and CCS racers that have been noticed by AMA factory teams and are filling out the grids now (okay with exception of the old farts like Duhamal and Matt, but damn, there quick! Hey, maybe there still is a place for you ).

 

[NSR250SP]

How can you say that the "AMA is in bed with the manufacturers" but then you BLAME the AMA for getting rid of 2-stroke classes?? The market HAD shifted more than 15 years prior to that (overdue?) decision! The reality is that we haven't seen a street-legal 2-stroke since the early 80s RZ350s and it was INSANE to showcase a motorcycle that nobody could buy.

Alex, you just proved his point. Your saying AMA isn't about the manufactures, and then say they are insane for having a class that showcases a bike one can't buy for street use. That makes the AMA a showcase for the sales floor. The sales floor is filled by the manufactures, so yes, the AMA is about selling bikes.

 

[JakesKTM]

it was INSANE to showcase a motorcycle that nobody could buy.

Exactly....the AMA is all about showcasing production streetbikes that people buy. That is a fact and partly why it was created in the first place. The AMA is open about that fact. That's the difference between FIM and AMA. FIM emphasizes riders and talent, and the AMA is about showcasing production motorcycles people can buy....that is opinion and observation from a fan point of view.

I applaud Mladin and Duhamel for having enough brains to stick around and dominate AMA racing on competitive machines instead of taking a $hitty bike in MotoGP.

As a racer and industry rep I would expect you to appreciate that. As a fan, I don't. It makes for boring races. If the AMA wants to increase it's road racing fanbase, they need to mimic FIM. How many people attend AMA Superbike compared to FIM events? People fly across the world (me included) to see an FIM race be it WSBK or MotoGP, but you have to give AMA tickets away to people in the USA who don't even know who Ben Spies is. What does that tell you? The average fan cares not whether it's 2 stroke or 4 stroke I would venture to guess (I know I really don't), or whether the bike Matt Mladin is riding is the same bike as thiers! What it comes down to is world competition in roadracing and USA representation within that pool. Hell, I don't even care about nationality as much, but I relish the days of US dominance in FIM.

See, the problem is you really don't know what you're talking about. Any parent with a kid of any age can petition the AFM to allow their young kid to come roadracing with the club. Infineon doesn't allow riders under 16, but the other two tracks do (sorry, nothing the AFM can do about that). A number of AFM board members prefer to see young kids start out on smaller bikes, including 125s. An exception was made for Bobby Fong to ride in the 600 classes due to his extensive racing background. I doubt you would EVER see the board approve a young rider on a liter bike. Tommy Aquino and Elena Myers have already been approved by the AFM, both on 125s..

First of all please don't assume I don't know what I am talking about....and I will continue to refrain from commenting that you think you know everything. I am well aware of the fact that several youngsters have gotten a petition approved through AFM. In fact I've read your rule book cover to cover.

Roadracing fans don't know who or what the AFM is. I do simply because I am a supercharged norcal fan and appreciate club racing. You may say AFM is more than club racing, and lap times might prove you close to being right, but perception of reality is more important than reality itself, and to Alberto Puig or Kenny Roberts it is probably more club as they are not scouting AFM events for young talent that I am aware of?? Perhaps the AFM should really get behind Nor Cal youngsters financially and help steer the USGPRU instead of bashing it? And simply approving a youngster's race petition is not impressive as a means of support. You have to scout, recruit, and develop these kids, not just approve thier race petition. What Kenny Roberts did for Bonsey is a good example. Again, why did he not put Bonsey into AMA 600cc or USGPRU for that matter?

Let me do a little math for you: ..

I get the numbers and I will not argue that point simply because it is pointless. If manufactures, retired racers, industry representatives, fans, clubs, forums, etc. do not step up to the plate and sponser young riders like Cam and Elana and others, then it doesn't matter where they showcase thier talent. You are talking in relative terms. Are you arguing that Johnny Ghetto can't compete in USGPRU because his parents are on welfare but the kid can ride? Then why don't people like you and I who have so much to complain about step up and put a bike under the kid and stop bitching about which series is best?? Personally if I contributed to Elana or Cam's campaign, I would prefer to see them in a roadrace series in Europe since the USA can't get it's proverbial shit together when it comes to support class roadracing.

USGPRU is the AHRMA of 2-strokes and they really shouldn't be wasting these kids families resources with the ridiculous claim of being a "MotoGP feeder series".:hand

If I were a parent I would be offended that you assume me to be that star studded and naive to actually believe MotoGP is my kid's only option. USGPRU is trying to mimic FIM feeder series not to swindle parents, but simply because it is not done here in the USA as such, particularly now that AMA doesn't run smaller road bikes. If a parent doesn't want thier kid in flat track and motocross, it is thier perogative. If they do not see AFM as a realistic showcase for thier offspring, then as an AFM/Industry Rep...do something about it. The reality we all live with is there is no competitive roadracing of four stroke bikes under 600cc in the USA. I would love to see a 400cc and 250cc series for young riders. I don't see it happening. Why is that?


At least answer that question before you tell me two strokes are dead AGAIN.

 

[afmotorsports]

Fine. You win, dude. Knock yourself out. It's all about 2-strokes and the USGPRU. :rolleyes 12-14 year olds are still LEARNING to ride and I'm advocating spending resources more on RIDING and PRACTICING than TRAVEL EXPENSES. Both AFM and USGPRU are actually quite USELESS in "showcasing" anything or anybody because the level of talent is an unknown. Big fish, small pond. I used AFM as an example of a LOCAL club, but it would be idiotic for a kid from Portland to come race AFM instead of OMRRA. I'm saying: "ride, ride, ride!" You're basically saying a snot-nosed 12 year old needs "exposure" at the national level so that "international talent scouts" can see him ride. Good luck with that.

 

[TWF]

JakesKTM,
take trip to Italy,sit down on corner of any street and watch bikes pass by.
you will figure out,usa will never get to that level.
it is geography and culture.
usgpru is in wrong country.

 

[Holeshot]

Jake makes one excellent point: the AFM is horrible at promoting itself as a club and promoting its star riders. The attitude has always been "make it on your own, not on club money". The truth is, the further our stars go, the more support we can garner as individuals. It's the AFM short sightedness at its core. Not even an advertisement in RRW for our class champions, ever. It's quite sad, really. Actually, substitute "pathetic" for "sad".

 

[NSR250SP]

Ah jeez Alex, you gave up way to easy and I thought you had more in ya

I think we all agree on one thing. Getting seat time is the most important thing for a young rider. Nothing is wrong with variety. We have an issue in the US in terms of exposure for young riders.

It would be nice if the AMA actually had a class more geared towards the younger, non factory backed riders. SB doesn't do it, supersport doesn't do it, F-Extreme is a little well, extreme for young riders (I am talking 12-15 year old young). We need something like a 125/250 (or 650) class for these young riders to get the exposure they need to move beyond the US boarders of racing.

John Ulrich does have connections with world level people who can help get riders into the FIM races, and he has done a lot for US racers. Kenny Roberts is starting to do that now (let's not count his kids ), and if Kevin Schwantz ends up as a team mananger for next year who knows what he could bring to the table in terms of US riders. If Freddie would stop thinking about himself ("When I raced, we did blah, blah, blah...") and maybe started to help grome some riders he could be a good resource as well. Hell, Keith Code is finally starting to help out in this area and he wasn't really ever a world champion, but he has a lot to offer in getting talented young riders moving beyond what a kid will get by doing some local club races where the press coverage is almost none.

The RebBull Rookie Cup isn't something new. yes it's something new for Americans, but it's been going on for a couple years now. One of the oringinal riders from it is actually riding in the 125 class. And the winners from this year have a chance to ride next year in the 125 class for some of the races. With that kind of exposure, you can only think that they could be noticed more so then racing at some cow pasture (or toxic waste dump) race tracks in the middle of no where USA.

At least the USGPRU is trying to do something for a national level amature race series to help riders get what is needed to become a possible pro-national or world champion. Can't knock-em for trying.

 

[TWF]

how would you promote it more?
what are you after?

 

[NSR250SP]

Jake makes one excellent point: the AFM is horrible at promoting itself as a club and promoting its star riders. The attitude has always been "make it on your own, not on club money". The truth is, the further our stars go, the more support we can garner as individuals. It's the AFM short sightedness at its core. Not even an advertisement in RRW for our class champions, ever. It's quite sad, really. Actually, substitute "pathetic" for "sad".

Holeshot,

this was one of my major complaints when racing with the AFM. And I would have gotten nothing for it. I even sent requests to the board to do this for an end of the year "thing" for the class champions. I think you nailed the reason on the head as to why it never happens. It's not about promoting the few champions, it's about the supporting everyone.

My point for doing this was to help get exposure to the club, bring in more industry support to the club and yes, to help out the top riders in the club by giving back to them in the way of press.

Maybe Alex can touch on why this was turned down?

 

[afmotorsports]

Jake makes one excellent point: the AFM is horrible at promoting itself as a club and promoting its star riders. The attitude has always been "make it on your own, not on club money". The truth is, the further our stars go, the more support we can garner as individuals. It's the AFM short sightedness at its core. Not even an advertisement in RRW for our class champions, ever. It's quite sad, really. Actually, substitute "pathetic" for "sad".

Totally DISAGREE with you on this one! AFM is a not-for-profit CLUB that has a responsibility to it's MEMBERSHIP as a whole, not to a few fast guys who *may* move on to bigger things (read as: not AFM related, not benefitting the club or its members in any way, shape or form). A C-L-U-B championship in any LOCAL series (not just AFM) means practically N-O-T-H-I-N-G in terms of AMA Pro or FIM. Don't kid yourself! Big fish, small pond. People not familiar with the local club have no idea about the talent level in the class. Taking out an advertisement in RRW would be a total waste of club resources, unless you consider stroking our ego a worthwhile expense.

Why aren't the CLUB champions themselves taking out an ad in RRW?? I know for a fact RRW has a discounted rate at the end of the season so that riders can thank their sponsors and brag about their results. If that in itself created opportunities, Siglin, Tigert and everybody else would plaster their stuff in magazines. But it doesn't work. Until you step up to AMA racing and can show them how you stack up against KNOWN fast guys, a club championship means nothing. AFM, OMRRA, WSMC, USGPRU, none of them mean very much in terms of becoming a professional racer. They are CLUBS! Until you go toe to toe in the "big pond", you're just a club racer. That's how the teams see you and no amount of advertising and "exposure" can change that.

 

[Holeshot]

Alex, I can't agree that a club championship means nothing. Sure it does in the AFM, because hardly anyone knows who we are...because the AFM never promotes itself as a club. At WSMC, a club champion means something...and they do some decent promotion.

Promotion helps us all. If our club is recognized, then we as club racers have greater stature with potential sponsors, no matter our relative position. To hide in the shadows and claim that riders should promote themselves is old school thinking.

 

[afmotorsports]

Alex, I can't agree that a club championship means nothing. Sure it does in the AFM, because hardly anyone knows who we are...because the AFM never promotes itself as a club. At WSMC, a club champion means something...and they do some decent promotion.

I'm not saying an AFM championship means nothing to US. It's a great accomplishment and it's hella cool in our little universe. It's not different for a WSMC championship, regardless of the advertising they pay for in RRW. How would a club "promote" itself? Would taking a monthly ad in RRW mean that our AFM championships are more important or prestigious?? Nope.

What I am saying is that it means NOTHING in terms of getting recognition for a potential pro rider. We are a club just like many other clubs in the US, so until our top riders step up to AMA races and go up against those guys, their accomplishments at the club level are fairly insignificant in terms of taking the next step. How are the teams supposed to know how competitive a certain class in our club was in 2006 vs. 2007? That changes from year to year, depending on the riders in each class. However, when those same riders go to an AMA national, they can be properly evaluated and ranked against some of the top riders in the entire country. That's a HUGE difference. They are ranked against KNOWN riders in a KNOWN pool of talent. You just can't get that out of a club. Any club!