RRW - The Rookie papers...what a disaster!

J

JakesKTM

Guest
afmotorsports said:
Stevie Bonsey went straight from flattrack to racing a REAL MotoGP 125 KTM, not the "mystery meat" Rookie's Cup. WTF does that mean?? Is local flattrack better than USGPRU?? Should all the kids racing 125s sell their bikes and go flattracking?? Bringing up ONE example doesn't mean squat. With kids at that age, their "connections" and the fact that they're competent on ANY type of motorcycle gets them attention. A speedway bike would get them attention. A 12 year old riding a 125 fast also gets attention, but I don't believe the fact that they're riding it in USGPRU gets them any additional attention. In fact, I'm more impressed with a kid that goes toe-to-toe with 2-stroke veterans (a KNOW quantity) than a bunch of other kids in USGPRU (an UNKNOWN quantity).

I still haven't seen even ONE of you come out and say that XYZ young rider should sell his 600 and jump on a 125 to go race with USGPRU. Well??? Why is that???
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The ONLY reason Steve Bonsey is there is because of Kenny Roberts. Personally I think you should focus on what is happening and not what you think should or will happen for young riders. The AMA screwed up by dumping the supporting classes before the market shifted to four strokes. It is painfully obvious the AMA is in bed with the manufacturers and it was a planned move. Unfortunately it meant alot of young riders were left to the dirt classes to race competitively and locally. So all these mini road racing clubs and USGPRU popped up in response and for that they should get credit for doing what the AMA is NOT. I personally resent the AMA for not doing more for it's youngest riders, but hey...it's all about money, manufacturers, and old fart privateers. AMA backs the hell out of dirt bikes, but road racing.... Roberts and Puig both know there is no developed support class in the USA for FIM. Puig watches USGPRU (no surprise as a Spaniard), the Roberts eyes flatrack (No surprise from a Nor Cal native). The surprise is where the next USA champ will surface. Who are we to judge that? I'm sure if Roberts had his way he would see to it that the AMA brought back 125's at least. So while you bag on USGPRU, what the hell is so grand about AMA? Oh yea....Matt Mladin Miguel Duhammel Doug Chandler, both Haydens Ben Spies, Bostroms, etc etc.... WTF?? Does anyone really care? Until one of these so called talented riders steps up to the international stage and takes a whack at Rossi or Stoner or whoever, it won't really mean shit will it? And yet the AMA is perfectly fine with an Australian sitting on a factory ride dominating every race.

So on the premier world class race day at Laguna we have to watch old men like Duhammel race around and prove that they are still competitive in AMA?

Personally I would rather see 6 riders in USGPRU ride around the track on 125's and 250's or whatever before I watch MotoGP. I could care less if they were on 2 strokes or 4..... but the AMA is screwing it all up.

It's sad to see our riders go to FIM where they are at a disadvantage now. It never used to be that way. Alot of that can be attributed to the AMA shift with the manufacturers to 600cc and 100cc dominated classes. It's all about the production based bikes, not about developing top talent.

Oh...and as far as steve Bonsey...with all due respect, he is having a hard time! It aint flat track four strokes!
 
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J

JakesKTM

Guest
afmotorsports said:
Forget the 600s for a moment. Tell the local kid with a 125 to come out and race AFM for a fraction of the cost of a USGPRU weekend. When that kid spanks Carlos or Peter or some of the other really fast 125 riders, he WILL get attention and have a bunch of money left over to do trackdays and/or get a better bike. Pretending that you just have to go fast on a 125 in a USGPRU race and then you'll get picked up by MotoGP is friggin nuts! There are exponentially more pro rides on 600s than there are MotoGP 125 rides, even considering the Rookies Cup.
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Ok you have a good idea here. I totally support local AFM kid classes. But are there any and why not? The reason parents are going to USGPRU is because theere is no other local club that is road racing on big tracks, am I worng. Please tell me there is a better option. There really isn't. USGPRU is purpose built and while it is not extremely competitive and expensive what real alternative is there for a 12 or 13 year old?
 
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TWF

TWF

training hard
JakesKTM said:
The ONLY reason Steve Bonsey is there is because of Kenny Roberts. Personally I think you should focus on what is happening and not what you think should or will happen for young riders. The AMA screwed up by dumping the supporting classes before the market shifted to four strokes. It is painfully obvious the AMA is in bed with the manufacturers and it was a planned move. Unfortunately it meant alot of young riders were left to the dirt classes to race competitively and locally. So all these mini road racing clubs and USGPRU popped up in response and for that they should get credit for doing what the AMA is NOT. I personally resent the AMA for not doing more for it's youngest riders, but hey...it's all about money, manufacturers, and old fart privateers. AMA backs the hell out of dirt bikes, but road racing.... Roberts and Puig both know there is no developed support class in the USA for FIM. Puig watches USGPRU (no surprise as a Spaniard), the Roberts eyes flatrack (No surprise from a Nor Cal native). The surprise is where the next USA champ will surface. Who are we to judge that? I'm sure if Roberts had his way he would see to it that the AMA brought back 125's at least. So while you bag on USGPRU, what the hell is so grand about AMA? Oh yea....Matt Mladin Miguel Duhammel Doug Chandler, both Haydens Ben Spies, Bostroms, etc etc.... WTF?? Does anyone really care? Until one of these so called talented riders steps up to the international stage and takes a whack at Rossi or Stoner or whoever, it won't really mean shit will it? And yet the AMA is perfectly fine with an Australian sitting on a factory ride dominating every race.

So on the premier world class race day at Laguna we have to watch old men like Duhammel race around and prove that they are still competitive in AMA?

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as much you dont like AMA it is only place in usa that will get you to motogp.
Hayden,Edwards,Hopkins,Rainey,Shwantz,Chandler,Kocinski,Roberts...
all had to made name at national level here is states before going to motogp.
usgpru is just club racing.
 
J

JakesKTM

Guest
TWF said:
as much you dont like AMA it is only place in usa that will get you to motogp.
Hayden,Edwards,Hopkins,Rainey,Shwantz,Chandler,Kocinski,Roberts...
all had to made name at national level here is states before going to motogp.
usgpru is just club racing.
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You forgot Lawson, KRJr. and Spencer but that's ok. All but Hayden have raced in 250's. Arguably the riders who did well in 250's also did better in Motogp on average. As 420 pointed out, some of that is attriubuted to raw talent, but don't take my word for it. Look at everyone you mentioned plus the three I added.

Since the AMA dumped 250's, there has been how many dominant USA champions rising to the surface? Zero. Everyone likes to speculate how Spies would do in Motogp, but where's the proof. If Kenny Roberts Sr thought so highly of AMA roadracing, why didn't he put Bonsey on a 600??

I don't NOT like the AMA...I just think that organization has made some bad decisions with regard to supporting young riders.

and I'm no racer, just a supercharged fanboi. But from a fan perspective, the AMA is also offering up less than WSBK and MotoGP.
 
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TWF

TWF

training hard
which brings you back to Alex post,2 smoke is dead.Europe is not dependent on AMA and Japanese.if money and support is not here why would we have AMA 125 class?you have uspgru and it is not competitive or on level of Europe.
lets say Cameron gets 125 ride in world championship.than what?he needs to win there to go to 250,than win there to get any chance to motogp.
AMA is easier route.
you talking like there is 30 open spots in motogp to be filled up.regardless where you race you have to show dominance to even be considered,on top of all other logistics.
there is 29 or so bikes on grid,we have 4 guys there.I think that is pretty good.
 
afmotorsports

afmotorsports

Well-known member
JakesKTM said:
The AMA screwed up by dumping the supporting classes before the market shifted to four strokes.
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With all due respect, that sentence just disqualified you from this discussion. How can you say that the "AMA is in bed with the manufacturers" but then you BLAME the AMA for getting rid of 2-stroke classes?? The market HAD shifted more than 15 years prior to that (overdue?) decision! The reality is that we haven't seen a street-legal 2-stroke since the early 80s RZ350s and it was INSANE to showcase a motorcycle that nobody could buy. Were the 125 and 250 races really cool to watch in the AMA? Well, maybe the 125s, but the 250 races sucked (Oliver just ran away and made everybody else look stupid). The time had come for those classes to be dismissed. There is a TON more money to be made in AMA racing today than there was 15-20 years ago and that's good for the sport. All the manufacturers bring several huge semi's, the riders get paid good money, the whole AMA Pro "show" is a lot more professional.

You guys just continue on and on about "FIM development classes" like that's supposed to be the goal for every professional motorcycle racer. Ridiculous! (and btw, the pinnacle in MotoGP is a FOUR STROKE...) I can't believe you would put down all these succesful AMA Pro racers. I applaud Mladin and Duhamel for having enough brains to stick around and dominate AMA racing on competitive machines instead of taking a $hitty bike in MotoGP.

I totally support local AFM kid classes. But are there any and why not? The reason parents are going to USGPRU is because theere is no other local club that is road racing on big tracks, am I worng. Please tell me there is a better option. There really isn't. USGPRU is purpose built and while it is not extremely competitive and expensive what real alternative is there for a 12 or 13 year old?
Click to expand...

See, the problem is you really don't know what you're talking about. Any parent with a kid of any age can petition the AFM to allow their young kid to come roadracing with the club. Infineon doesn't allow riders under 16, but the other two tracks do (sorry, nothing the AFM can do about that). A number of AFM board members prefer to see young kids start out on smaller bikes, including 125s. An exception was made for Bobby Fong to ride in the 600 classes due to his extensive racing background. I doubt you would EVER see the board approve a young rider on a liter bike. Tommy Aquino and Elena Myers have already been approved by the AFM, both on 125s.

Let me do a little math for you: a trip to Road Atlanta for ONE race is a little over 5,000 miles roundtrip. For most SUVs or trucks pulling a trailer that's 500+ gallons of fuel, nearly TWO GRAND just to get the truck there and back (nevermind wear and tear, oil changes, etc.) Add min. a week off work to drive there and back, motels, food, etc. and the total for that one race can quickly jump over FIVE GRAND. And what do these kids get for that?? Just like hockey games let pee-wee's play in between periods (ya know, when the majority of the crowd is out getting food and beer, taking a piss, buying hats and t-shirts), USGPRU is going to be half-time entertainment between AMA Pro races. For the money spent on that ONE race, a local kid could do all the AFM races (except Infineon) and a $hitload of trackdays to become a better, faster rider. Which one is a better investment in the kid's future?? Gambling that ONE race 2,500 miles away will motivate somebody to jump up and hand a kid a contract? Fat chance! Both you and Jay are absolutely failing to see how EXPENSIVE it is to travel around following a "national series" vs. sticking around your local tracks and clubs, proving your abilities at a local level before trying to "impress" anybody in a bogus "national series".

USGPRU is the AHRMA of 2-strokes and they really shouldn't be wasting these kids families resources with the ridiculous claim of being a "MotoGP feeder series".:hand
 
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TWF

TWF

training hard
420 said:
Jeez ... now you've entered dreamland. When was the last time you ran circles around me... Best go check the lap charts sonny boy... :laughing
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we never raced against each other,that I remember.anyway,never mind my old big mouth ass.
just go to afm results and compare lap times from 650 twins/F4 to those of F3 and F2.
I think I will call 650 class new motogp feeder :)
 
4

420

Well-known member
dgrace said:
I call bullshit - please show us this math and let us know your assumptions. (i.e. does the family live in Vegas or S.F.?) Presumably you're going to argue that 600s eat tires, but conversely, they don't eat cranks and topends, and run fine on pump gas.

dave
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Now most all of you are out of your league in replys like this. How many have raced both???

I have.

A weekend on a 125 will run:
$230 entries (2 races + Sat)
$50 gas (C12 $9 gallon)
$240 Tires (1 front 1 rear)
$100 Misc. (oil, etc)
= $620

A weekend on a 600:
$230 Entries (2 races + Sat)
$30 gas (I run pump)
$570 Tires (1 front 2 r ears)
$150 Misc. (4x the oil and a filter, etc)
= $980

Yearly:
125 = ~$350 in Top ends and ~$700 in bottom end + $250 misc stuff like chains and cush drives and clutch plates = $1300
600= ~$1100 in engine refresh + ~$200 in misc stuff like chain, clutch and stuff = ~$1300

Additionally, the 600 eats brake pads at a phenomenally faster rate and costs double to replace.

And this assumes no crashing. Average crash on a 125 is minimal expense ... maybe $200 or less, average crash on a 600 is exponentially higher.

This also takes nothing into account on the race prep costs, to prep a new 600 you might as well kiss away $3000 or more to make it semi-competitive. A 125 is a RACE only machine, buy it and race, period.

So 9 race weekend with no crashes and a fully preped bike is still saving ~ $3200 and thats alot of travel money!!

If your saying its cheaper to run a 600 I strongly disagree with you and this is coming from a person who has raced both, competitively!!
 
TWF

TWF

training hard
MackeyStingray said:
i will be the next elias :p

doh!
Click to expand...
you could do better if you stop looking at tails :)
ps.that is your tire mark :laughing

3178906-mikestail.jpg
 
TWF

TWF

training hard
420 said:
Now most all of you are out of your league in replys like this. How many have raced both???

I have.

A weekend on a 125 will run:
$230 entries (2 races + Sat)
$50 gas (C12 $9 gallon)
$240 Tires (1 front 1 rear)
$100 Misc. (oil, etc)
= $620

A weekend on a 600:
$230 Entries (2 races + Sat)
$30 gas (I run pump)
$570 Tires (1 front 2 r ears)
$150 Misc. (4x the oil and a filter, etc)
= $980

Yearly:
125 = ~$350 in Top ends and ~$700 in bottom end + $250 misc stuff like chains and cush drives and clutch plates = $1300
600= ~$1100 in engine refresh + ~$200 in misc stuff like chain, clutch and stuff = ~$1300

Additionally, the 600 eats brake pads at a phenomenally faster rate and costs double to replace.

And this assumes no crashing. Average crash on a 125 is minimal expense ... maybe $200 or less, average crash on a 600 is exponentially higher.

This also takes nothing into account on the race prep costs, to prep a new 600 you might as well kiss away $3000 or more to make it semi-competitive. A 125 is a RACE only machine, buy it and race, period.

So 9 race weekend with no crashes and a fully preped bike is still saving ~ $3200 and thats alot of travel money!!

If your saying its cheaper to run a 600 I strongly disagree with you and this is coming from a person who has raced both, competitively!!
Click to expand...
winning race on 600=$2-3K
winning on 125=?
 
afmotorsports

afmotorsports

Well-known member
420 said:
...
A weekend on a 600:
...
$570 Tires (1 front 2 r ears)
Click to expand...

On a R1 racebike, I've used 1 front and 3 rears for the past 3 AFM weekends. Granted, I'm struggling, barely touching on 46's... but Rob Mesa has used 1 front and 4 rears, including two trackdays at Miller and he is hauling a$$. So you're saying you burn up 3 fronts and 6 rears on a 600 during those same three weekends??? Hmmm, sounds like somebody's got money to burn... wanna try Michelins?? :laughing ;) And take your $3,200 "extra cash", drive to Road Atlanta and back, then Miller and back (for those "prestigious nationals") and you easily burned up the extra money.

In general, I would agree with you that it's cheaper to run a 125 for a season at LOCAL races, but as soon as you try to follow the so-called "nationals" with USGPRU, the pricetag just skyrocketed!
 
4

420

Well-known member
Zoran .... seriously dude... I know your trying to make a point, but we all know if your gonna be in a position to win a 600 race at the AFM or AMA level you are spending ALOT more than you would to be to put yourself in a position to win a race at the USGPRU or AFM 125 level.
I assume your telling us all that 600s are cheaper to turn into really fast race bikes than 125s. At least thats the way it sounds.

In that case you also better add on the $100 in U-4 your dropping per weekend and the $1500 upgrade on the shock every year and the $1800 Ohlins cartridge setup. And remember that $1-2k you speak of only comes if its a manufacturers contingency weekend.

You guys are all good racers and stuff and you have good points about 600s being the way to progress in the US race scene, but when you start to insinuate that racing a 600 is financially more viable than a 125GP bike, you begin to look a little foolish and you diminish the otherwise strong arguments that you have.
 
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