MSF. Necessary or optional for a new rider?

[07chuck]

Get off the soap box. I have no motive to learn? Do you know what "motive" means? My imagined advanced riding skills? I make no such claims. Read everything I've written once again, since you obviously didn't do a very good job of it the first time.

Well you learned that S.I.P.D.E. stuff really works... you just didn't do a very good job of it the first time.

 

[Crazyboy]

Been a lurker for a awhile. Got my permit last week, now taking the MSF starting tonight out at the Modesto JC, finishing this weekend. I have ridden before, but hope to learn a lot. Hope to pass, then I will go out and get my first bike since I was a kid(many years ago)

 

[Enchanter]

From an Instructor / RiderCoach point of view, the most difficult people to teach are the ones that come into the class with prior 'experience'. Many of these people arrive with things they 'know' to be true. As such, they only hear parts of the class.

I cannot tell you how many times I've argued the basics with students. Students come to class with the following 'facts':
Stay away from the front brake, you'll go over the bars, it's just common sense.
Stay away from the rear brake, the front is all you will ever need.
Counter steering is BS.
Countersteering might work on your bikes, but not on my (insert ANY bike here).
You have to teach us to LAY IT DOWN, because you will HAVE to do it one day, it's part of riding a motorcycle.
Using the engine cut-off switch damages to engine.
You HAVE to put pipes on a Harley.
Loud pipes save lives.
Deer whistles work.
MY TT250 CANNOT make it thru the DMV circle.
Sportbikes are uncomfortable.
I have to pass this class, I already bought my Heritage Softtail. (First bike for a 35yr old 120lb rider).
Never ride in the center of the lane, you'll go down.
You should ride in the mirror of the car ahead of you even if it means being 2 feet away from the car while you are going 20-50mph faster.
You have to use ONLY 2 fingers on the brakes on my bike, 'cuz you flip over if you use 4.
On my bike, the clutch is on the right handlebar.
On my bike you roll away from you to accellerate.
I've never ridden before, but I KNOW it doesn't work that way.

Each of these were full on arguments. RiderCoaches have heard it all. Teach for any length of time and you can pick out the student(s) that will not learn no matter how hard we try, because they 'know' better. You can pick out these riders when they WALK into the classroom.

 

[QuaiChangKane]

Been a lurker for a awhile. Got my permit last week, now taking the MSF starting tonight out at the Modesto JC, finishing this weekend. I have ridden before, but hope to learn a lot. Hope to pass, then I will go out and get my first bike since I was a kid(many years ago)

:thumbup


See you there.

 

[chrono-X]

QuaiChangKane/Enchanter - I'll mojo y'all if i could, but for now :thumbup will do.

I didnt know anything motorcycles when i took the MSF class. The 4 hours spent in the classroom taught me more than any previous classroom experience. Learning the functions and controls on the motorcycles was vital to me since i had no idea what that red button do and a lot of the other stuff...choke/rear/frontbrake/shiftlever etc...

There were a few in my MSF class who's been riding a few years prior to the MSF class. They did worst than me during the exams. Like enchanter said, they've already developed bad habits and couldnt steer away from it.

Oliver, you had been riding mtnbikes/dirtbikes so you obviously know how to control a 2 wheeled vehicle. But you're missing the point of the BRC. it's intended for the BEGINNERS! Just like my newbie rides, i dont know why some people show up asking where's the A/fast group. Why are you coming to a newbie ride looking for the fast group? :wtf Go follow GaryJ in the santa cruz mountains. To me, you sound like those kinda guys. Using rear brakes only? On a 749? oh yea...it's a vtwin...all you need is engine braking and rear brakes :rolleyes

Oh btw, rear tire slipping? We didnt go over that drill in the MSF course, but i've fishtailed twice. Once slamming on BOTH brakes to avoid running a red light (the leader stopped). I must've slid 10-15ft, i had a bald spot on my tire and damn...it smelled like shit. The point is, you're not the only guy who has instincts to do the right thing during the time of an emergency. You're not special, stop sounding like you are.

 

[grandmastershake]

well said chrono.

 

[cerephic]

I was another rider who'd never been at the controls of a bike before my MSF...

I have to say I'm a little dismayed to hear the rear tire slide exercise isn't part of the course anymore - it does seem to happen to everyone, whether it be a lapse in judgement, attention, or a bad patch of road. I know that I would mostly likely have panicked and tossed the bike the first time I locked the rear tire by acccident, if I hadn't been taught to NOT let go! And that would have been in the middle of an intersection.

That said, if any of my friends say they're thinking of taking up motorcycling, and then next sentence of of their mouth isn't "and I'm signing up for MSF", Cerephic gets out a 2x4 with rusty nails stuck all over it, and prepares for a friendly smackdown^Wadvice session. I'm unfortunately a little aggressive with my warnings.
(managed to scare an ex out of ever riding again, after snapping at him for taking his first freeway ride alone without a rider escort to help.)

I get very twitchy when I hear of friends starting riding in other states without an MSF. especially ones without helmet laws, or a gear-wearing culture.

regarding the driver's ed not teaching spinouts...
I have a female asian friend who never drove after passing her C test, and is facing a city commute soon. She's really scared. I'm really thinking that a day on SCCA autocross track will be the best thing for her, and plan to take her out there as soon as I can. I'd never slid a car before then, and I was significantly less afraid of it afterwards. I now knew what it felt like and learned/practiced the basics of how to control and pull out of a slide. And it was fun.

 

[oliver]

QuaiChangKane/Enchanter - I'll mojo y'all if i could, but for now :thumbup will do.

I didnt know anything motorcycles when i took the MSF class. The 4 hours spent in the classroom taught me more than any previous classroom experience. Learning the functions and controls on the motorcycles was vital to me since i had no idea what that red button do and a lot of the other stuff...choke/rear/frontbrake/shiftlever etc...

There were a few in my MSF class who's been riding a few years prior to the MSF class. They did worst than me during the exams. Like enchanter said, they've already developed bad habits and couldnt steer away from it.

Oliver, you had been riding mtnbikes/dirtbikes so you obviously know how to control a 2 wheeled vehicle. But you're missing the point of the BRC. it's intended for the BEGINNERS! Just like my newbie rides, i dont know why some people show up asking where's the A/fast group. Why are you coming to a newbie ride looking for the fast group? :wtf Go follow GaryJ in the santa cruz mountains. To me, you sound like those kinda guys. Using rear brakes only? On a 749? oh yea...it's a vtwin...all you need is engine braking and rear brakes :rolleyes

Oh btw, rear tire slipping? We didnt go over that drill in the MSF course, but i've fishtailed twice. Once slamming on BOTH brakes to avoid running a red light (the leader stopped). I must've slid 10-15ft, i had a bald spot on my tire and damn...it smelled like shit. The point is, you're not the only guy who has instincts to do the right thing during the time of an emergency. You're not special, stop sounding like you are.

You are missing my point entirely. I'm not special, but there are many who have locked up the rear brake and crashed. I HAVE raced cars professionally for years however, so it isn't bragging to say that I have more of a clue than most new riders. I locked up the rear and did not crash, for whatever reason suits your fancy.

Contrary to what you and Saturn Tech wrote, I have no misconceptions about my level of riding skill. I have not even gone on a "canyon ride" or whatever you guys wanna call it because I don't feel comfortable enough to do so at this point. Regarding my using only the rear brake and the ensuing shitstorm it brewed up, I should elaborate: when rolling to a stop sign or light (as one does in SF quite frequently), I'll use the rear brake to come to a final stop. Of course I don't use only the rear brake to stop from 25mph. When I had to stop quickly the other night, I used both and ended up locking the rear. I don't need to talk to you guys about weight transfer and its effect on rear traction.

I had no idea what I was getting into with MSF. Friends and members of this board just said "OMG you gotta take it!" so I did. Clearly, I expected to learn the basics but also some more advanced skills that would actually help me control the bike. I'm disappointed that I did not--end of story. I didn't complain or "ask for the fast group" during the class; I listened along with everybody else, answered questions to the best of my ability, rode the bike as instructed, and ended up passing the exam with no deductions. I was hardly out of line.

Maybe I'm now out of line by criticizing a class that I felt was too easy. I dunno. But it is, however, my opinion just as all of the other posts here are the opinions of others.

Please, you guys, I'm not trying to sound arrogant or overconfident, nor am I just waving my e-wiener. It isn't bragging to say that I locked up the rear and didn't crash (a five-year-old can do that on a bicycle all day without a problem) so please don't interpret it that way. I try to be as cautious on the road as possible and maintain no delusions of grandeur--I'm a noob, through and through.

 

[Sane_Man]

You are missing my point entirely. I'm not special, but there are many who have locked up the rear brake and crashed. I HAVE raced cars professionally for years however, so it isn't bragging to say that I have more of a clue than most new riders. I locked up the rear and did not crash, for whatever reason suits your fancy.

I don't need to talk to you guys about weight transfer and its effect on rear traction.

Why do you keep contridicting yourself in the same post? :confused

Weight transfer and its effect on rear traction is why your rear tire locked up and started skidding.

If the tires are skidding, they aren't helping you to stop. Can we agree on that point? Brakes are what makes your bike stop by converting kenetic energy into heat, but the tires need to be turning to do this.

Front brakes on a vehicle do about 75% of braking, but you get weight transfer to the front in the process. If there is no weight on the rear, then the rear brakes aren't going to help you stop, so why use them? The rear brake can help stop the bike in normal riding, but in a panic situation, you will not be able to modulate them quickly enough to keep from skidding. If you just squeeze the front brake a little tighter, you can bring the bike to a quicker stop then fooling around with the rear brakes.

If you have to make a panic stop for any reason that required you to lockup the brakes, you didn't adjust your speed for the conditions at the time, and were not scanning properly for threats.

 

[Eric in Davis]

Re: I kind of wish I took it.

I heard from someone who took it that they had to lock up the rear break so I did that a bunch of times(sometimes w/ a down shift). Also he said that you can go into first w/ out any throttle. So I did that. Am I missing anything else crucial. Cause the two circles DMV test was a joke. That test proves nothing but parking lot skills. What did I miss out on? :zzz

And no Im not going to take the class.:x

Ignorance and complacency are dangerous things when combined with a motorcycle.

 

[oliver]

Why do you keep contridicting yourself in the same post? :confused

Weight transfer and its effect on rear traction is why your rear tire locked up and started skidding.

If the tires are skidding, they aren't helping you to stop. Can we agree on that point? Brakes are what makes your bike stop by converting kenetic energy into heat, but the tires need to be turning to do this.

Front brakes on a vehicle do about 75% of braking, but you get weight transfer to the front in the process. If there is no weight on the rear, then the rear brakes aren't going to help you stop, so why use them? The rear brake can help stop the bike in normal riding, but in a panic situation, you will not be able to modulate them quickly enough to keep from skidding. If you just squeeze the front brake a little tighter, you can bring the bike to a quicker stop then fooling around with the rear brakes.

If you have to make a panic stop for any reason that required you to lockup the brakes, you didn't adjust your speed for the conditions at the time, and were not scanning properly for threats.

Holy shit bro, I appreciate your input but you just wrote the exact same thing I did. Yes, weight transfer was partially responsible for my locking up the rear wheel. That's exactly my point--it wasn't because I used *only* the rear brake as somebody else incorrectly assumed, it was because I used enough front brake to lift most of the downforce off of the rear wheel.

 

[oliver]

If the tires are skidding, they aren't helping you to stop. Can we agree on that point? Brakes are what makes your bike stop by converting kenetic energy into heat, but the tires need to be turning to do this.

Sorry for the double post, but you are not correct. Skidding tires do help slow a vehicle, though not as effectively as rotating ones. I assume that's what you meant.

 

[Enchanter]

Holy shit bro, I appreciate your input but you just wrote the exact same thing I did. Yes, weight transfer was partially responsible for my locking up the rear wheel. That's exactly my point--it wasn't because I used *only* the rear brake as somebody else incorrectly assumed, it was because I used enough front brake to lift most of the downforce off of the rear wheel.

You locked the rear wheel because you improperly applied the brakes. Period. Your job as a rider it to control the speed of the weight transfer. As a rider applies the front brake with increasing pressure, the rider must also modulate the pressure to the rear brake. The only way to do this with skill is to develop the skill through practice. This practice comes from properly using the brakes everytime you ride. Common sense no?

 

[oliver]

You locked the rear wheel because you improperly applied the brakes. Period. Your job as a rider it to control the speed of the weight transfer. As a rider applies the front brake with increasing pressure, the rider must also modulate the pressure to the rear brake. The only way to do this with skill is to develop the skill through practice. This practice comes from properly using the brakes everytime you ride. Common sense no?

Quite frankly, you're a very predictable joke. I responded to Sane_man's lecture on weight transfer and its effect on rear traction. I knew some halfwit would respond with "it wasn't the weight transfer, it was YOU" so I was very careful to use the words "partially responsible". Like I said, predictable.

 

[Enchanter]

If there is no weight on the rear, then the rear brakes aren't going to help you stop, so why use them?

Application of the rear brake does more than slow the wheel. It also has an affect on the chassis of the motorcycle. It tends to reduce the total weight transfer forwards. This will assist in keeping more weight on the rear tire which will enable the rider to eploit that additional traction to reduce the total stopping distance.

The rear brake can help stop the bike in normal riding, but in a panic situation, you will not be able to modulate them quickly enough to keep from skidding. If you just squeeze the front brake a little tighter, you can bring the bike to a quicker stop then fooling around with the rear brakes.

With practice, a rider CAN develop the skill of using both brakes without locking the rear. If both tires are on the ground, application of the rear brake will reduce the distance.

If you have to make a panic stop for any reason that required you to lockup the brakes, you didn't adjust your speed for the conditions at the time, and were not scanning properly for threats.

Totally agree.

 

[Enchanter]

Quite frankly, you're a very predictable joke. I responded to Sane_man's lecture on weight transfer and its effect on rear traction. I knew some halfwit would respond with "it wasn't the weight transfer, it was YOU" so I was very careful to use the words "partially responsible". Like I said, predictable.

Ah...resorting to name calling. Childish and immature. Just like the rest of your posts.

Bannished to the twit file.

 

[Futcion]

Ah...resorting to name calling. Childish and immature. Just like the rest of your posts.

Bannished to the twit file.

You gotta like, gain more weight, then sit way back on it when braking hard so you can use the rear brake more. Slam that fat ass down on the passenger seat and grind away on the rear rotor with those pads, rar! =D

 

[atoyf]

hell yea - it's great

I liked it a lot!

 

[doitdave]

i would tend to think if you are totally new to riding, not riding scooters and dirtbikes growing up, yes the class will give you some experience.

If you have been riding for a while, and are just getting into street bikes or getting a M! licence, i believe you would have a solid base from past experience to not need a Basic cycle course.

BTY, the Dreaded circle test wasn't hard at all, you just need to get a motard and its easy a pie.

 

[rritterson]

IMHO, you'll learn a lot more your first 1000 miles on the street than you could possibly learn at the MSF.

But, the MSF will allow you to stay alive and on two wheels for those first 1000. (it did for me anyway).