MSF. Necessary or optional for a new rider?

[Sane_Man]

This is in response to IceRider's thread about Freeway's vs. Highway's.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=150426

She got stopped while riding on Hwy 17 and got a ticket because she only has a permit. She can't get into MSF until March, but she said she will stay off 17 until then.

Is MSF just an easy ticket to a M1, or a learning environment to make new riders safer?

 

[iehawk]

It's recommended I'd say. It's the easiest way to pass the riding test. You get to learn a lot of important stuff along the way. Also you can get a discount with some insurance.

A lot of stuff you won't learn just by riding on the road. I took it. It's worth the cost if not more.

 

[a1yola]

i say its indeed "necessary" in order to be a safe rider. I took the MSF after about 6 months of riding and learned a lot of important things that I have since implemented into my everyday riding. Its also the easiest way to get the license...that DMV riding test is pretty hard on a sportbike (tried it during closing hours)

 

[mrc]

I if were smart, I'd cite MCN's recent articles about the shift in curriculum focus.

Since I'm not, I'll just say that I consider it crucial even if it's half as useful as I found it to be in '03.

I mean, it seems they've changed some things (this from some conversations w/ a friend who took it recently), but unless they're recommending that people lay the bike down for min stoppage distance, they're still the best, objective, quantifiable ticket for most people not to get en-kill-ulated.

edited for chucklehead typos

 

[quasi888]

A lot is dependent on the particular MSF location's instructors. I've taken the course twice -- once back in 1993, and again in 2001 (partially as a refresher getting back into riding after a 6-year hiatus, partially as moral support for a friend who was getting into it for the first time). Some instructors clearly care about arming the students with the knowledge to become safer, more proficient riders; others clearly are there just to collect a paycheck.

In general, though, I do think MSF is doing the right thing. "Easy" ticket to M1? I don't think so. The range exercises require an appreciable level of competency to complete (people do fail them); promote good riding habits; and are applicable to real-world scenarios -- which is more than I can say for the DMV riding tests; when was the last time you had to ride in a circle 3 times?.

(Related note: when I took MSF the first time, there was an exercise that required locking up the rear brake and maintaining a controlled rear-wheel slide for 10-15 feet. I wish they still did this exercise. )

For the overwhelming majority of new riders, it's a hell of a lot better than learning to ride from a friend.

 

[carbonkid]

I kind of wish I took it.

I heard from someone who took it that they had to lock up the rear break so I did that a bunch of times(sometimes w/ a down shift). Also he said that you can go into first w/ out any throttle. So I did that. Am I missing anything else crucial. Cause the two circles DMV test was a joke. That test proves nothing but parking lot skills. What did I miss out on? :zzz

And no Im not going to take the class.:x

 

[MotoLiam]

Wish I had some mojo for some of the replies you guys have given. It took me two years of streetriding before I took the MSF course, and another two years before I got in the dirt. You cannot put a price on education. While I value experience, the foundation you can benefit from by taking the MSF course can be just as valuable. As with any class, you get out of it what you put into it. Soooo, it's not necessary for a new rider, but it's one of the options a new rider should take.

 

[betis70]

I answered "yes" but upon actually reading the question, I'd answer 'no'. Based on the thread title, I thought 'yes' would mean "yes, it is necessary".

Caught not reading the actual poll question, just the title (which is misleading to me).

 

[oliver]

Depends on the rider

I just completed my MSF course a month or two ago, and I could see than for many, it was very educational. In all honestly however, a lot of what the instructors covered seemed like common sense stuff to me. They absolutely hammered home such points as correct starting procedure (FINE-C!), how to mount and dismount your bike, and stopping with both brakes every time. I felt that my three days could have been more wisely spent actually learning to ride than branding these somewhat arcane procedures into my brain.

A few of you mentioned the controlled slide exercise--that certainly was not a part of my curriculum. I wish it were; I lost track of how many times the instructors said, "we used to do that, but too many riders fell over." Isn't that the point?

 

[wstick1]

Good question, we usually ask the class on the range to raise their hands if they signed up for the class because they thought it would be easier than taking the DMV test. Most people raise their hands.

The answer is, it is and it isnt. You see, the MSF test is harder, but we teach you everything you need to pass it, whereas DMV doesnt teach you anything. Like carbonkid said, DMV test is only parking lot skills, basically control skills.

In class, we teach the u-turn box, basically the same as the DMV circle, but also swerving, emergency stopping, and most importantly cornering. Sometimes I wake up at night screaming "TURN YOUR HEAD" LOLOLOL

Necessary? Not for everyone(unless you're under 18). Good idea? You betcha.

 

[wstick1]

As for the rear brake slide, why would you practice something that is not the best technique?

 

[QuaiChangKane]

Re: I kind of wish I took it.

What did I miss out on? :zzz

Only about 7 hours of classroom instruction and 9 hours of structured riding instruction, all designed by the largest not-for-profit motorcycle safety company in the world.

And no Im not going to take the class.:x

Any specific reason why? I rode on the street for almost 15 years before I took the course, and still learned quite a few things.







-Q!

 

[oliver]

As for the rear brake slide, why would you practice something that is not the best technique?

Because it happens. See my post here for an example. I took the MSF course, passed with zero deductions, yet still found myself in an unintended slide last night. The world is just not quite that perfect.

 

[QuaiChangKane]

Re: Depends on the rider

I just completed my MSF course a month or two ago, and I could see than for many, it was very educational. In all honestly however, a lot of what the instructors covered seemed like common sense stuff to me. They absolutely hammered home such points as correct starting procedure (FINE-C!), how to mount and dismount your bike, and stopping with both brakes every time. I felt that my three days could have been more wisely spent actually learning to ride than branding these somewhat arcane procedures into my brain.

A few of you mentioned the controlled slide exercise--that certainly was not a part of my curriculum. I wish it were; I lost track of how many times the instructors said, "we used to do that, but too many riders fell over." Isn't that the point?

You have to understand how muscle memory works. Now you know how to use the kill switch without looking for it in case of an emergency, and you know how to use a fuel valve without taking your eyes off the road if you need to switch to reserve (yeah, most sportbikes don't have fuel valves, I know).


You also know to turn your key off before you get off your bike, how to make sure the sidestand is full down before dismount, and how to lift the sidestand up before you put it into gear.

You know that you need to slow down before you enter a corner, look through your exit, and accelerate through the turn. You know how countersteering, counterbalancing, and target-fixation work, not to mention shifting to first gear during a stop - especiall an emergency stop - so you can take off in a hurry if you need to.

If you were really trying to learn something, you learned how to balance a bike at very low speed, as well as completely stop a bike without putting your foot down.

And most importantly, you learned to keep your eyes up and trust your peripheral vision.



Now, if you did all of these things perfectly the first time you were told to, then you probably didn't benefit from this course. But if you made any mistakes at all, or learned a single thing in the classroom, then I'd say it was worth the time and money you spent over those three days.





-Q!

 

[QuaiChangKane]

Because it happens. See my post here for an example. I took the MSF course, passed with zero deductions, yet still found myself in an unintended slide last night. The world is just not quite that perfect.

No, it's not that perfect - just like the MSF course.


You have to realize two things - first, it's a BASIC motorcycle safety course. Second, we assume an incredible amount of liability for hosting the BRC, and there are some things that are just too likely to cause a rider to go down.

Quite simply, we try to teach riders what they're supposed to do, not what they're not supposed to do. If we had a controlled rear-skid excercise, shouldn't we have a controlled stoppie excercise? They can both happen during panic stopping situations. How about a front tire skid? Unintentional power wheelie excercise? How about a power slide through a corner?


-Q!

 

[wstick1]

Because it happens. See my post here for an example. I took the MSF course, passed with zero deductions, yet still found myself in an unintended slide last night. The world is just not quite that perfect.

Congrats on running a clean sheet!

Now what could you have done differently to avoid having to panic brake in that situation?

 

[Enchanter]

Re: Depends on the rider

I just completed my MSF course a month or two ago, and I could see than for many, it was very educational. In all honestly however, a lot of what the instructors covered seemed like common sense stuff to me. They absolutely hammered home such points as correct starting procedure (FINE-C!), how to mount and dismount your bike, and stopping with both brakes every time. I felt that my three days could have been more wisely spent actually learning to ride than branding these somewhat arcane procedures into my brain.

You attended a Begining Rider Course when you were looking for more advanced skills. Remember that more than 75% of the students that attend this class have never been at the controls of a motorcycle prior to walking onto the parking lot Saturday morning.

Arcane procedures???
FINE-C:
FUEL: Many riders have only driven cars. I can't tell you how many students forget to turn on the fuel. Better to learn that lesson in a parking lot than on El Camino...don't you think?
IGNITION: They expect to get on, turn the key and go. Fully half of the training bikes have keys that are bent 30-40 degrees from the student twisting them HARD to get the bike to start.
NEUTRAL: Most students have not driven a manual transmission EVER!
ENGINE C/O: Can you ride without ever using this switch? Sure. If a novice never uses it, will they know to use it when they loose their footing in the Starbucks parking lot? NO.
C (choke/clutch): Um yeah, ask a 25yr old the last car they drove with a manual choke.

Mounting/dismounting: Many students try to do it like they do on a bicycle: get off, then lower the stand. Yeah, again, important for a beginner right?

Stopping with both brakes: Again, car drivers use one control (with their foot) Um, probably not effective or smart on a motorcycle huh? (Arcane though huh?)

A few of you mentioned the controlled slide exercise--that certainly was not a part of my curriculum. I wish it were; I lost track of how many times the instructors said, "we used to do that, but too many riders fell over." Isn't that the point?

NO. Your instructors were misinformed. That particular exercise had the least amount of crashes. In fact, in 16 years, I've never had someone crash in that exercise. The point of that exercise was to teach students that skiding the rear tire is a commont problem, and if they learn that it doesn't = crashing, that they can learn how to control it when it happens to them on the street.

I have a theory as to why it was removed from the course, and it doesn't have anything to do with safety. In the end it's just my theory though.

 

[oliver]

Re: Re: Depends on the rider

You have to understand how muscle memory works. No you know how to use the kill switch without looking for it in case of an emergency, and you know how to use a fuel valve without taking your eyes off the road if you need to switch to reserve

.

Kill switch? I can't even reach the kill switch on my Ducati w/o taking my hand off the throttle. And as far as the fuel valve goes, the only time we touched it was when we were stopped--no on-the-fly adjustments were even mentioned.

You also know to turn your key off before you get off your bike, how to make sure the sidestand is full down before dismount, and how to lift the sidestand up before you put it into gear.

You know that you need to slow down before you enter a corner, look through your exit, and accelerate through the turn. You know how countersteering, counterbalancing, and target-fixation work, not to mention shifting to first gear during a stop - especiall an emergency stop - so you can take off in a hurry if you need to.

If you were really trying to learn something, you learned how to balance a bike at very low speed, as well as completely stop a bike without putting your foot down.

And most importantly, you learned to keep your eyes up and trust your peripheral vision.

True...usefull stuff, but these topics were a relatively small part of the class.

Now, if you did all of these things perfectly the first time you were told to, then you probably didn't benefit from this course. But if you made any mistakes at all, or learned a single thing in the classroom, then I'd say it was worth the time and money you spent over those three days.

I believe that given three days of my time, the course should have covered more. It wasn't completely useless, but let's try to raise the bar a little, huh?

 

[oliver]

Congrats on running a clean sheet!

Now what could you have done differently to avoid having to panic brake in that situation?

I should have stopped in the first place instead of planning to go around the guy. It wouldn't have been that big of a deal then.

 

[wstick1]

Exactly, you got mojo for that one. :thumbup
You might want to look into the ERC as well.