MSF. Necessary or optional for a new rider?

[Enchanter]

Because it happens. See my post here for an example. I took the MSF course, passed with zero deductions, yet still found myself in an unintended slide last night. The world is just not quite that perfect.

Here is your post from the other thread:

Around the city I like to use a lot of rear brake as it causes less brake dive (and corresponding rebound when the bike comes to a stop). It gets hot after not too long though and begins squeal, so I mix in a little more front every now and then.

On more rural roads, I tend to use mostly the front brake (except, of course, when leaning into a turn).

Interestingly, I enjoyed my first true panic stop last night on 16th street near Valencia when an oncoming Explorer executed an abrupt, half-hearted U-turn in front of me. The guy made it through about 95 degrees of the turn before he ran out of room, then very quickly threw it in reverse just as I was begining to position myself to ride around behind him.

Anyway, I grabbed both brakes and ended up sliding to a stop. Then I honked:teeth I'm not sure if I used more rear than normal or more front than normal, but the end result was a locked rear wheel. It was kind of exciting, to be honest!

If you were more skilled in proper use of the front (&rear) brake, the chances of using the brakes properly would have been greatly reduced. By your own admission, your city braking is dominated by the rear brake. Where would you think a motorcyclist is more likely to have to avoid another road user, city or rural roads? But then again the instruction you recieved in using both brakes was 'arcane' in your own words.

You are looking for more advanced techniques, yet you don't have the basics down yet.

For reference, the exercise we used to teach was locking the rear wheel, not the front.

We spend our time teaching the correct techniques, we belive that that is of much more use than teaching how to fix a problem caused by use of incorrect techniques. Makes more sense, mabye not 'common sense to some people though.

 

[oliver]

Re: Re: Depends on the rider

Arcane procedures???
FINE-C:
FUEL: Many riders have only driven cars. I can't tell you how many students forget to turn on the fuel. Better to learn that lesson in a parking lot than on El Camino...don't you think?
IGNITION: They expect to get on, turn the key and go. Fully half of the training bikes have keys that are bent 30-40 degrees from the student twisting them HARD to get the bike to start.
NEUTRAL: Most students have not driven a manual transmission EVER!
ENGINE C/O: Can you ride without ever using this switch? Sure. If a novice never uses it, will they know to use it when they loose their footing in the Starbucks parking lot? NO.
C (choke/clutch): Um yeah, ask a 25yr old the last car they drove with a manual choke.

Mounting/dismounting: Many students try to do it like they do on a bicycle: get off, then lower the stand. Yeah, again, important for a beginner right?

Yes, important--but not 1 day of classroom and 2 days of practice important! We should be taught how to stay alive, not how to avoid embarrassment. Sure all those things above are useful, but if you cannot figure out how to start a bike without 3 days of instruction...

Stopping with both brakes: Again, car drivers use one control (with their foot) Um, probably not effective or smart on a motorcycle huh? (Arcane though huh?)

You missed the point. Motorcycles have independent front and rear brake controls that we should learn how to use independently. Not because it's always the right thing to do, but because there will come a time when we lock up one or the other and if we don't know what it feels like, what's gonna happen?

 

[oliver]

If you were more skilled in proper use of the front (&rear) brake, the chances of using the brakes properly would have been greatly reduced. By your own admission, your city braking is dominated by the rear brake. Where would you think a motorcyclist is more likely to have to avoid another road user, city or rural roads? But then again the instruction you recieved in using both brakes was 'arcane' in your own words.

I did use both brakes, as taught, but still got into the "dreaded" slide. Now what? I blew right through what MSF taught me and was into uncharted territory! So I relied on instinct, just steered the bike though the slide and everything turned out fine. But the happy ending was not due to anything I learned in MSF. I've ridden dirtbikes and mountain bikes forever, so I was never very worried--never felt truly out of control even while sliding. But the same cannot be said for many others, I'm sure.

You are looking for more advanced techniques, yet you don't have the basics down yet.

I don't? I passed YOUR class with flying colors! I demonstrated that I could perform everything that was taught. I am the model MSF student. But...there I found myself, on a bike that was doing something that factors into a lot of accidnets, but wasn't covered under the MSF curriculum. So am I now a bad student?

Here is my point: I am a paying customer, and I am dissatisfied. Take that for whatever you feel it's worth, be it a personal attack or constructive criticism.

 

[QuaiChangKane]

Re: Re: Re: Depends on the rider

.

True...usefull stuff, but these topics were a relatively small part of the class.




I believe that given three days of my time, the course should have covered more. It wasn't completely useless, but let's try to raise the bar a little, huh?

So - what was your take on what the bulk of the class was comprised of.


And how would you change the class, bearing in mind that the curriculum still needs to manageable for people so new to motorcycling that they don't even know what a clutch is, let alone how to use one?




-Q!

 

[Enchanter]

I did use both brakes, as taught, but still got into the "dreaded" slide. Now what? I blew right through what MSF taught me and was into uncharted territory! So I relied on instinct, just steered the bike though the slide and everything turned out fine. But the happy ending was not due to anything I learned in MSF. I've ridden dirtbikes and mountain bikes forever, so I was never very worried--never felt truly out of control even while sliding. But the same cannot be said for many others, I'm sure.

I don't? I passed YOUR class with flying colors! I demonstrated that I could perform everything that was taught. I am the model MSF student. But...there I found myself, on a bike that was doing something that factors into a lot of accidnets, but wasn't covered under the MSF curriculum. So am I now a bad student?

You are NOT a model student. By your own admission you use techniques that are 100% contrary to what you were taught in the class. How is that being a model student? You did what was required to passs the course, then left to apply your own techniques and are not getting the results that you want....interesting. You blame the curriculum, but don't apply it. Sure you used both brakes, but you weren't good at it, you did it improperly. Why? Because you only use the rear brake in the city.

As for not covered in the curriculum? You were taught to use both brakes all the time. By your own admission, you do not. Accident avoidance WAS covered in the curriculum.

Here is my point: I am a paying customer, and I am dissatisfied. Take that for whatever you feel it's worth, be it a personal attack or constructive criticism.

You came to a class looking for advanced skills when you by admission do not use the basics. You didn't do your homework. Take responsibility for your actions (Volunarily choosing a course that you feel you didn't need, improperly applying the brakes using YOUR prefered technique while still blaming the course).

First, you must apply (and become proficient in)what you were taught. Only then are you qualified to comment on the program. Once more I point out that you are not applying what you were taught.

Oh, and seeing a SUV start a u-turn, stop due to lack of space, and still procede to ride past...? I see a trend in your posts.

 

[quasi888]

I answered "yes" but upon actually reading the question, I'd answer 'no'. Based on the thread title, I thought 'yes' would mean "yes, it is necessary".

Caught not reading the actual poll question, just the title (which is misleading to me).

I would agree with this; and the choices are a little confusing as they are not necessarily mutually exclusive; i.e., no, i don't think it is merely a formality, and yes, i do think it is a lot better than doing circles in the DMV test.

 

[oliver]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Depends on the rider

So - what was your take on what the bulk of the class was comprised of.


And how would you change the class, bearing in mind that the curriculum still needs to manageable for people so new to motorcycling that they don't even know what a clutch is, let alone how to use one?

I belive I mentioned earlier what I though the bulk of the class was made up of.

I would seriously re-evaluate the first day. The MSF book is actually quite useful, but what was covered in five hours could literally have been covered in one hour. Our first activity was to answer a few questions in the back of the book (three of them, or so). We weren't told to read anything first, just "here's the question on the test, find the answer." Which took our group all of one minute. So we twiddled our thumbs for another 10 mintues while waiting for God knows what. Then, out loud, the entire class read ***THEIR*** answers to the questions they were assigned, one by one. The answers that were read aloud were oftentimes wrong or barely right! We continued to make our way through the book in this manner for the duration of the night. The class was essentially taught by our uninformed peers. I believe we should have read the book cover-to-cover first, then listened to the instructor enumerate on the difficult areas.

The range. The one thing that wasn't kept in mind was "practice, practice, practice." I firmly believe people learn by doing, not by listening to lecture. If I had to guess, I would say we spent a total of 20% of our time actually riding, not even including the first classrom day. The rest of the time was spent either waiting in line or listening to the instructor recite the same lines he's recited for the last ten years. Also, it seemd as if the theme of the class was to avoid danger. "Use both brakes so you don't skid." "Straighten out before slowing down" etc. Those are useful, but what if a rider needs to brake while turning? What if a rider locks up the rear? Or the front, heaven forbid? It's kinda like teaching abstinence from sex instead of teaching how to do it safely. Kind of naive and Utopian, in my opinion (sorry, I went to a Catholic high school).

 

[oliver]

You are NOT a model student. By your own admission you use techniques that are 100% contrary to what you were taught in the class. How is that being a model student? You did what was required to passs the course, then left to apply your own techniques and are not getting the results that you want....interesting. You blame the curriculum, but don't apply it. Sure you used both brakes, but you weren't good at it, you did it improperly. Why? Because you only use the rear brake in the city.

Oh God. I am using myself as an example because I received zero deductions on my test. You cannot really do any better than that. I have told you several times now that I used both brakes last night. The exact bias split is unknown, but you can rest assured that it was mostly front. I (probably) locked up the rear because there was very little weight on it, not because I was braking with only that wheel.

As for not covered in the curriculum? You were taught to use both brakes all the time. By your own admission, you do not.

Um...huh?

Accident avoidance WAS covered in the curriculum.

You came to a class looking for advanced skills when you by admission do not use the basics. You didn't do your homework. Take responsibility for your actions (Volunarily choosing a course that you feel you didn't need, improperly applying the brakes using YOUR prefered technique while still blaming the course).

You are starting to sound like a very bad small business owner. Blaming the customer for buying your product?

First, you must apply (and become proficient in)what you were taught. Only then are you qualified to comment on the program. Once more I point out that you are not applying what you were taught.

Oh, and seeing a SUV start a u-turn, stop due to lack of space, and still procede to ride past...? I see a trend in your posts.

If a trend can be made up of one data, go ahead and call it a trend. As I mentioned earlier, I should have just come to a stop in the first place. Again--my incident is just an example of how inexperienced riders can get caught out, something that you should consider taking to heart.

 

[Eisernkreuz]

Re: I kind of wish I took it.

I heard from someone who took it that they had to lock up the rear break so I did that a bunch of times(sometimes w/ a down shift). Also he said that you can go into first w/ out any throttle. So I did that. Am I missing anything else crucial. Cause the two circles DMV test was a joke. That test proves nothing but parking lot skills. What did I miss out on? :zzz

And no Im not going to take the class.:x

A little bit of playing with the friction zone of the clutch. Starting and stopping in a straight line. Soft, slow turns. Countersteering (accelerate to 25, push left, push right). Going over an obstacle (a 2x4 in the road). That was pretty much it, you didn't miss too much

 

[QuaiChangKane]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Depends on the rider

I belive I mentioned earlier what I though the bulk of the class was made up of.

I would seriously re-evaluate the first day. The MSF book is actually quite useful, but what was covered in five hours could literally have been covered in one hour. Our first activity was to answer a few questions in the back of the book (three of them, or so). We weren't told to read anything first, just "here's the question on the test, find the answer." Which took our group all of one minute. So we twiddled our thumbs for another 10 mintues while waiting for God knows what. Then, out loud, the entire class read ***THEIR*** answers to the questions they were assigned, one by one. The answers that were read aloud were oftentimes wrong or barely right! We continued to make our way through the book in this manner for the duration of the night. The class was essentially taught by our uninformed peers. I believe we should have read the book cover-to-cover first, then listened to the instructor enumerate on the difficult areas.

The range. The one thing that wasn't kept in mind was "practice, practice, practice." I firmly believe people learn by doing, not by listening to lecture. If I had to guess, I would say we spent a total of 20% of our time actually riding, not even including the first classrom day. The rest of the time was spent either waiting in line or listening to the instructor recite the same lines he's recited for the last ten years. Also, it seemd as if the theme of the class was to avoid danger. "Use both brakes so you don't skid." "Straighten out before slowing down" etc. Those are useful, but what if a rider needs to brake while turning? What if a rider locks up the rear? Or the front, heaven forbid? It's kinda like teaching abstinence from sex instead of teaching how to do it safely. Kind of naive and Utopian, in my opinion (sorry, I went to a Catholic high school).

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you are a pretty young man. If not, then you are one of the relatively few adults that perform better in a totally structured environment.


I'll give you a few inside pointers to try to help you understand why the curriculum is presented the way it is...


Learner-centered instruction -the knowledge you get by seeking it for yourself will stay with you longer - hence the self-reading/self answering.

Peer facilitated learning - most adults will be more open to the learning process if they can bounce ideas off of their classmates prior to being put on the spot to answer questions.


There are 126 questions in the BRC book and 50 on the test. One technique to teaching the classroom portion is to split the class into groups and assign the questions from each segment to the group instead of each individual. If you had to read the entire book yourself, answer and recite each question, and watch each video, you'd be there for quite some time. Even if you were to get through it in a modest amount of time, how am I - as your instructor - going to be certain that you actually absorbed the material instead of merely flipping pages and scanning for answers? This isn't a high-school exit exam - the point here is to actually learn the material, not just pass a test.

And I reiterate - for something as potentially stressful as a 40-something learning to ride a motorcycle for the first time, getting the students to open up is the only way to ensure that they're relaxed enough to be receptive to anything you're trying to teach.


When it comes to the range exercises, they are explained, they are demonstrated, questions are answered about technique and path of travel, then the students ride. Each exercise is designed to last approximately 20-30 minutes, depending on how quickly the students master the skills. There are 9 exercises the first day, and 7 the second day (not counting the skills practice and evaluation). 9 x 30 minutes, not counting throwing cones, explaining/demonstrating/Q&A, and brakes is 4.5 hours of range time. If 4.5 hours was a waste of your time, imagine what 6 hours would've felt like. Now, imagine you're a 50 year old woman whose only experience on a motorcycle was the beginning of the first range day. It's been 4 hours, and you're mentally and physically exhausted. Should I keep the class going in order to better please the more experienced riders, or end the day in order to better facilitate the learning curve of the target audience of a basic riding course - the true novices - ones that need the training the most.

And when am I supposed to throw the skidding exercise in?

The theme of the class IS to avoid danger. You have to understand that it's about riding the safest way possible on the street. That's why we teach things like "straighten and brake" instead of "progressively apply the brakes as you straighten the bike". Even though they're both valid techniques, which one do you think is the safest technique for a novice? You have already admitted yourself that a miscalculation while braking in a STRAIGHT line caused you to lock up your rear brake and fishtail. Are you confident enough in your current skill level that if someone made a u-turn in front of you while you're traveling around a blind curve that you could safely brake to a stop without panicking and locking up either wheel?



But of course, none of this will change your opinion about your experience with the class. You were obviously ill-informed about the merits and purpose of the class, and were looking for something more advanced. The only one to blame for setting your expectations too high is yourself.



Is the BRC the end-all of motorcycle training? Absolutely not. But it is the best thing available at the current time for teaching novice riders the minimum skills they need to know to begin their riding careers.




FWIW - the only reason I get defensive when I hear of negative reviews regarding the BRC curriculum is that there are a LOT of new riders (and quite a few experienced ones) that would benefit greatly from this course. Every negative review given of the BRC will potentially discourage riders from taking this course - and that decision may be the oversight that ends their riding career.






But that's just my opinion.





Why didn't Driver's Ed teach me to recover from a spin or drift around corners?








-Q!

 

[crazyrussian]

When I walked into that classroom, I've NEVER been on a motorcycle. In fact, I had no idea that I actually wanted to own and ride a motorcycle, just thought I should know how to in case of an emergency. After those four days, I was not only hooked on riding, I learned the basics of how to do it well enought that in a week I went and bought a motorcycle and rode it from castro valley to santa cruz. and felt comfortable doing so. (granted, I had a buddy behind me in my cage running interference, but...)

Without MSF I would have never gotten a bike. And I KNOW that without MSF I would have wadded the bike, if I got it, in the first 100 miles. I also would have never known why I should wear a full face, gear, etc. I would use the rear brake, like I do on my mountain bike to control speed, I would run out of fuel, and my bike would be on it's side every day. I know myself well enough. So far, knock knock, 1500 miles in the last month and a half, and I use the MSF skills every single day, because I'm riding every day, and my cage is rusting in the driveway. NO WAY could I do that without MSF.

So, thanks MSF. Anyone who's a noob- take it. save some cash on insurance, and get skills that you wouldn't get on your own in years.

 

[oliver]

QuaiChangKane, those are valid points, especially the question about Driver's Ed. It is woefully insufficient and you will never hear me defend it. As far as me having the skill to avoid something while turning--I don't know! I would have like to find out in the safety of a closed course though...

 

[QuaiChangKane]

QuaiChangKane, those are valid points, especially the question about Driver's Ed. It is woefully insufficient and you will never hear me defend it. As far as me having the skill to avoid something while turning--I don't know! I would have like to find out in the safety of a closed course though...

I understand where you're coming from. Just bear in mind that the MSF's goal is to get riders to avoid situations that are beyond their control.

Rear wheel skids, braking while leaning, et al - if you can teach a novice to never lock a brake up, to slow before corners, to be leery of blind corners, to never apply the brakes while leaned over, and that swerving may be a better option to panic-braking, you're increasing their chance of survivng on the road long enough to master the basic skills and start figuring out the more advanced ones.

Experience is the best teacher, and we're time-limited. Ideally, the novice rider passes the BRC, gets their M1, and returns to take the ERC in a year or so - making learning a life-long process. Mentoring, track days/schools, reading, training videos - there are a lot of options out there to continue your motorcycle training.



-Q!

 

[phrills]

Re: Re: Depends on the rider

You have to understand how muscle memory works. Now you know how to use the kill switch without looking for it in case of an emergency, and you know how to use a fuel valve without taking your eyes off the road if you need to switch to reserve (yeah, most sportbikes don't have fuel valves, I know).


You also know to turn your key off before you get off your bike, how to make sure the sidestand is full down before dismount, and how to lift the sidestand up before you put it into gear.

You know that you need to slow down before you enter a corner, look through your exit, and accelerate through the turn. You know how countersteering, counterbalancing, and target-fixation work, not to mention shifting to first gear during a stop - especiall an emergency stop - so you can take off in a hurry if you need to.

If you were really trying to learn something, you learned how to balance a bike at very low speed, as well as completely stop a bike without putting your foot down.

And most importantly, you learned to keep your eyes up and trust your peripheral vision.



Now, if you did all of these things perfectly the first time you were told to, then you probably didn't benefit from this course. But if you made any mistakes at all, or learned a single thing in the classroom, then I'd say it was worth the time and money you spent over those three days.





-Q!

I completely agree. I'm a new rider, and without that course, i wouldnt know the steps to do it. And the fact that they told us to do it over and over again helped me remember the steps. Like you said, muscle memory is super.

 

[tuxumino]

I have never taken the MSF course, got my first MC license in Georgia in '84 on a broke down suzuki I had purchased half an hour before.

When people ask me how to get into motorcyling I always suggest taking the MSF course first for 3 reasons:
1) you can find out if you can even control a motorcycle in safe enivroment.
2) you get a break on insurance.
3) you don't have to buy a bike and gear to find out you don't like riding.

The MSF course is a starting point to make learning to ride safer, as time goes on and a rider becomes more proficient they will choose techniques and strategies that work for them.
riding style, like gear, is personnal choice: the MSF course makes it more likely to be an edjucated choice.

 

[QuaiChangKane]

I have never taken the MSF course, got my first MC license in Georgia in '84 on a broke down suzuki I had purchased half an hour before.

When people ask me how to get into motorcyling I always suggest taking the MSF course first for 3 reasons:
1) you can find out if you can even control a motorcycle in safe enivroment.
2) you get a break on insurance.
3) you don't have to buy a bike and gear to find out you don't like riding.

The MSF course is a starting point to make learning to ride safer, as time goes on and a rider becomes more proficient they will choose techniques and strategies that work for them.
riding style, like gear, is personnal choice: the MSF course makes it more likely to be an edjucated choice.

:thumbup



I started riding on a beat up Honda 500 when I was 17. I went down twice within the first 6 months - once was target fixation around a right-hander at about 30 (panicked, straightened and went off-roading). The second time was crossing parallel RR tracks in the rain to make a left turn. MSF would've saved me both times.....





-Q!

 

[grandmastershake]

hey oliver.

with the attitude you are showing and useage of some skill that are real bad in practice, it will not be long before the " i highsided on 35 today thread" or "lowsiding sucks" or a myriad of lethal possibilties and or life long severe body damage.

stop thinking the way you do and you will become a seasoned rider. your refusal to learn based on arrogance and self imagined advanced riding skills will end you up in a morgue.

my advice is find a rider that has some GOOD experiance and have them mentor you. start in a big parking lot and work up from there. there are a ton of GOOD RIDERS ON THIS BOARD THAT WILL HELP OUT ANYBODY THAT NEEDS HELP *AND* IS **WILLING** TO LEARN.

YOU show that you have no motive to learn and that you are above the rest.

please for your own sake shut up, listen, and learn.

 

[Futcion]

This is in response to IceRider's thread about Freeway's vs. Highway's.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=150426

She got stopped while riding on Hwy 17 and got a ticket because she only has a permit. She can't get into MSF until March, but she said she will stay off 17 until then.

Is MSF just an easy ticket to a M1, or a learning environment to make new riders safer?

I am one of those people that went out and got a GSX-R600 as their first bike. I had no idea what I was doing. I didn't even know how to counter steer, but this worked out to my benefit, because I had to go slow enough to manhandle the thing with my weight and I weigh like 140 so it was pretty slow. Fortunately I had some friends that introduced me to stuff like gear and gave me some basic instruction. It's probably because of that that I'm still riding today. When I finally did get into the MSF course, I was practiced and I got a perfect score on the riding test. I still don't think I could have taken my GSX-R600 and passed the DMV test at that point. I'm not even sure I could pass it today.

As far as riding on a permit.. Yeah, in the time it took me to finally get into the MSF course, I had driven at night and on the freeways. It was irresistable. I was new to it and riding that pretty blue/black bike was all I could think about. It was love. =D I think it's understandable that in the four months you have to wait to get into an MSF course, you may find yourself sincerely tempted to drive on the freeway or at night. If you do it, I'd suggest doing everything possible not to attract attention. Drive inbetween cars, position cars between yourself and police, fade out of the spotlight and put all these big SUVs and shipping trucks to your advantage to not be seen by cars in other lanes. Always of course obey the law, but also, be a ninja.

I'm just curious though, having driven 17 on a group ride way back when I only had my permit, what's the penalty for that?

<3
Jon

 

[Sane_Man]

Re: Re: MSF. Necessary or optional for a new rider?

I am one of those people that went out and got a GSX-R600 as their first bike. I had no idea what I was doing. I didn't even know how to counter steer, but this worked out to my benefit, because I had to go slow enough to manhandle the thing with my weight and I weigh like 140 so it was pretty slow. Fortunately I had some friends that introduced me to stuff like gear and gave me some basic instruction. It's probably because of that that I'm still riding today. When I finally did get into the MSF course, I was practiced and I got a perfect score on the riding test. I still don't think I could have taken my GSX-R600 and passed the DMV test at that point. I'm not even sure I could pass it today.

As far as riding on a permit.. Yeah, in the time it took me to finally get into the MSF course, I had driven at night and on the freeways. It was irresistable.
<3
Jon

Was there a reason why you didn't schedule the class before you bought the bike so you wouldn't have to wait to take it?

 

[oliver]

hey oliver.

with the attitude you are showing and useage of some skill that are real bad in practice, it will not be long before the " i highsided on 35 today thread" or "lowsiding sucks" or a myriad of lethal possibilties and or life long severe body damage.

stop thinking the way you do and you will become a seasoned rider. your refusal to learn based on arrogance and self imagined advanced riding skills will end you up in a morgue.

my advice is find a rider that has some GOOD experiance and have them mentor you. start in a big parking lot and work up from there. there are a ton of GOOD RIDERS ON THIS BOARD THAT WILL HELP OUT ANYBODY THAT NEEDS HELP *AND* IS **WILLING** TO LEARN.

YOU show that you have no motive to learn and that you are above the rest.

please for your own sake shut up, listen, and learn.

Get off the soap box. I have no motive to learn? Do you know what "motive" means? My imagined advanced riding skills? I make no such claims. Read everything I've written once again, since you obviously didn't do a very good job of it the first time.