Cripple Triple

duh_ave

Well-known member
How else could that be accomplished without pulling the head to grind cams or remove valves?

You shouldnt have to pull the head to swap out your cams.
This was one of the beauties of this modification. Plus, it's inexpensive and easy to revert back (save your original cams, document shim sizing, and get used cams for the conversion.
 

duh_ave

Well-known member
I think the rule book just states that some physical modification must be made, and then they list the injector bypass as an example of that. I figured that the phrase physical modification was meant to stop the purely electrical methods mentioned above, not meaning something mechanical has to be done internally.

The rule is physical modification to the engine.
The injector only bypass is modifying the harness, not the engine.
 

duh_ave

Well-known member
The interpretation of Tech is the final word, regardless of actual verbiage within the rule book
 

MZarra

AFM Treasurer
Rule 6.1.7b is very clear:

The cylinder disablement must include some physical modifcation to the engine (i.e., cam lobes removed, valves removed, fuel injector(s) bypassed or spark plug removed.)​

Bypassing the fuel injectors is perfectly legal, confirmed with AFM tech, and was run by a number of bikes in 2016. That rule is UNCHANGED for 2017.

Dave Wallis is mistaken in his interpretation of the rules and the events of 2016.
 

duh_ave

Well-known member
As I already suggested to you, Marcus, check with tech.

I learned this by checking with tech.
 

MZarra

AFM Treasurer
As I already suggested to you, Marcus, check with tech.

I learned this by checking with tech.

Please stop spreading mis-information.

  • I have discussed this issue with tech.
  • I raced a 450 last year with an injector by-pass.
  • I developed the non-invasive by-pass for the R6 shower injectors.
The rule is correct and the injector by-pass method is legal in the AFM.
 

duh_ave

Well-known member
I will gladly apologize if I am Incorrect and encourage everyone to check with tech themselves.

I have been in contact with tech, as you know, on this specific matter just recently, meaning in the last couple of weeks. This is not my interpretation, but tech's interpretation.

So, as a board member, why dont you request an official statement from tech?

Yes, it seems a lot of folks ran this way last year-- it wasn't legal then either.

Why did I contact tech? I've been out of the loop for a couple of years now, more or less. someone Iknow asked me to build a bike on "switches" and so I read the rules to check, since this was illegal a couple of years ago. The rules doesn't say anything about switches, and as a rule of thumb, if the AFM rule book doesn't say you can, then you cannot.
So I called tech and was told no. No switches, and no stand alone injector mod. There must be a physical disablement to the engine, just as the rule
clearly states.
 
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duh_ave

Well-known member
Marcus,
Your injector bypass mod will still be valuable as the injectors will still have to be bypassed.
 

MZarra

AFM Treasurer
There is an official statement from tech, it is called the AFM Rule Book.

Nothing else needs to be said about it.

If you do not like it, then do as I suggested: Go to a board meeting and file a motion for the rule to be changed.

As it stands the injector by-pass is legal for 2017 and was legal in 2016.

Your hearsay comments do not change anything.
 

thedub

Octane Socks
Why does it matter as long as the bike is only running on three cylinders during the race?

If someone was trying to cheat by developing some sort of electronic means to re-enable the cylinder wouldn't it be obvious by the sound and speed of the bike?

It should be absolutely as easy and painless as possible to switch back and forth so people are encouraged to run 450 and 600 races (and pay more entry fees) on the same day if they desire.
 

MZarra

AFM Treasurer
Why does it matter as long as the bike is only running on three cylinders during the race?

If someone was trying to cheat by developing some sort of electronic means to re-enable the cylinder wouldn't it be obvious by the sound and speed of the bike?

It should be absolutely as easy and painless as possible to switch back and forth so people are encouraged to run 450 and 600 races (and pay more entry fees) on the same day if they desire.

Exactly!

If someone was cheating it would be immediately obvious and it is testable after the race (the 30 minute protest period).

However, the AFM is cautious for good reasons, and the rules and what is allowed are slowly maturing.

So far, there has been no cheating. The rules won't be really tested until someone tries to cheat.

That will probably happen right after the talent scouts start watching the 450 grid...
 

duh_ave

Well-known member
every rule is subject to interpretation by tech. The actual rule berbiage cane be argued for its wording, yes, but in the end, one person, the head of tech, decides how to interpret that rule.
The interpretation will be based on the intent behind the rule and , sometimes, other parameters around that intent.
Here, the intent stood as it was , for a Mechanical disablement to the engine, (now reworded as a physical change to the engine) but never was the club apprised of the intent to go to an all electronic mod, and so this was not approved.

As you know, I was involved in the rules processes for several years before you even joined the AFM.
I was, along with Dave Moss, the drive behind getting the triples into the AFM. I have a fairly reasonable understanding of the rules processes and how they work. Further, because of this, I was able to developed some good relationships with people in the fm, such as the current (and past) heads of tech.
I am not going to make shit up, nor am I going g to put words into their mouths.

So if you wish to challenge my statement, Marcus, please get something official from Tech. Your own interpretation is as meaningless as mine would be should either differ from that of tech.
 
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duh_ave

Well-known member
Why does it matter as long as the bike is only running on three cylinders during the race?

If someone was trying to cheat by developing some sort of electronic means to re-enable the cylinder wouldn't it be obvious by the sound and speed of the bike?

It should be absolutely as easy and painless as possible to switch back and forth so people are encouraged to run 450 and 600 races (and pay more entry fees) on the same day if they desire.

I fully agree as well. The issue is the method(s) that are approved. And injector mod only is not one of them. This begets the issue for tech, which is how to enforce it.

The switch concept can be developed to where it would be approved. I've talked with tech and made suggestions to some of the 450 on They might developers it.
Cross Classing is huge to the growth of 450. Marcus and his family have taken huge strides and been incredible Ambassadors for 450.
My concern is that when 1/2 the grid gets DQ'd , Because of the promotion of an illegal build from within 450, the class will die.
 

duh_ave

Well-known member
I have already had extensive conversations with AFM Tech.

A number of them were today thanks to your need for drama.

If you followed the process, there would be no "drama", assuming drama
Means attempting to inform riders of the rules
 

MZarra

AFM Treasurer
The Injector by-pass is legal. Has been legal and is still legal.

It is in the rulebook, it has been approved by AFM Tech and has been run by a large number of riders on the grid.

The rules were submitted for the 2016 season and approved by the Board of Directors.

If you do not like how the rules are today: Bring them to the board.

Hashing them out in text messages, on Facebook and on BARF is not going to change reality for you.
 

Stalerice

AFM #828
Just some perspective, some racers including myself are relying on the ignition by-pass to run in the 450 class in order to keep the costs down. I think if I remember correctly everyone in the 450 grid is using some sort of ignition by-pass on their bikes for the same reason I am which is costs.

That's the main sticking point for this class is to be able to run two types of bikes (450 and 600) without having two bikes and still be competitive. I am looking forward towards racing with the people I hang out with in the paddock and I will be leaning on them for help and advice.

Nick
 
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