He's set up for it, as the bike turns in, in a number of those sequences, you can see their head and upper body drop down into the corner. Compare how Marquez is sitting as he approaches the corner, vs when he's at max lean...photos below to compare as these guys are doing all of this so dang fast it can be hard to just "see" it.
Obviously countersteering is involved in getting the bike turned as well, and there are a LOT of little nuances that are going on if they need to correct anything, but I doubt even they could tell you every specific detail of what they are doing - if it was able to be broken down that much, then MotoBot would be able to be faster than Rossi, but the human brain takes and analyzes those things so quickly they can't program it into a robot yet.
I'm wondering how much body steering or hanging off is used to setup a bike for for a turn as opposed to actually causing the bike to lean. I realize that body steering is a indirect form of counter-steering, but on some bikes it's not having much effect. This is the first video I could find of Keith Code's green "no bs" bike. With this particular bike, there's very little lean angle response to body steering. Skip to 2:35 into this video:
I'm wondering how much body steering or hanging off is used to setup a bike for for a turn as opposed to actually causing the bike to lean. I realize that body steering is a indirect form of counter-steering, but on some bikes it's not having much effect. This is the only video I could find of the Keith Code's green "no bs" bike. With this particular bike, there's very little lean angle response to body steering. Skip to 2:35 into this video:
I kind of feel like you're missing some of the basic premises of "hanging off." While there are subtleties that help with turn in and such, it is PRIMARILY used to counterweight the bike, change the combined center of gravity, so you can go through a given radius at a higher rate of speed at the same lean angle.
On a given corner, with a given radius, all other things being equal, moving the combined center of gravity (by moving your personal COG to the inside) will stand the bike up, which means more contact patch which means less risk for a given speed on a given bike and rider.
How all of that is used to a rider's advantage can be a very personal thing depending on their riding style, their bike, and their personal physical composition.
Body positioning isn't so much about changing the direction of the bike, but about controlling traction.
I don't claim to be anywhere near the top, or even all that aware of every minuscule input I make on a bike while riding near my limits because at that point, traction and maintaining it is my primary objective. Unless something unexpected happens, hopefully I'm not making mid-corner adjustments, because if I am, that means I messed something else up.
With regards to track riding, are counter steering and weighting the pegs/body steering considered two different techniques for cornering of which you only choose one method? Or are they meant to be used in conjunction?
I kind of feel like you're missing some of the basic premises of "hanging off." While there are subtleties that help with turn in and such, it is PRIMARILY used to counterweight the bike, change the combined center of gravity, so you can go through a given radius at a higher rate of speed at the same lean angle.
On a given corner, with a given radius, all other things being equal, moving the combined center of gravity (by moving your personal COG to the inside) will stand the bike up, which means more contact patch which means less risk for a given speed on a given bike and rider.
How all of that is used to a rider's advantage can be a very personal thing depending on their riding style, their bike, and their personal physical composition.
Body positioning isn't so much about changing the direction of the bike, but about controlling traction.
I understand the reasons for hanging off, such as reduced lean angle of the bike and the effect on contact patches, improved chance of recovery if the bike starts to slide, ... . The original question mentions "body steering", which would be different than "body positioning", and I was trying to follow up on the "body steering" aspect.
I have what could be a related question. In the last few years, I've noticed that during corner approach, some riders take their inside leg off the peg and hold it away and perhaps forwards from the bike, similar to flat track dirt racers (except that unlike flat trackers that can slide their boot on the track, I assume that attempting to do this on a road track would jerk the riders leg back), then put the leg back on the peg and hang off in a conventional manner during the actual turn. What is the purpose of this?
"body steering" is that last 5% of going fast on a race track. its making sure that you try to hold the bike in a corner w/ the footpegs and not the bars. its making sure that you mash down on the footpegs during transitions. plenty of ppl can go fast while fucking this up, but no one can win races without it.
"body positioning" is the first 20% of going fast that everyone should do. its keep your CG in a good spot so that your lines are as tight as possible. its keeping your arms bent so u can control the bike well. the chances of someone going fast while doing this poorly are very slim.
separating the two on the actual racetrack is unnecessary. when a racer is lowering their head on corner entry, their line is tightening. so they are body steering. they are also getting into a good body position. when they drop their body further on corner exit to increase traction, thats body position. but they moved their CG too, so of course their line must be a little tighter.
Code's NoBS bike shows that countersteering is much more effective at inducing a lean angle change than hanging off. thats about it. it should in no way suggest that hanging off and/or bodysteering cant be a useful tool for getting around the racetrack. i really focused on countersteering in my early riding "career" because i knew about that bike and the physics behind it. to be honest, it kind of set me back in my racing career. im now spending a lot of track time trying to utilize my legs and body more to eek out that next bit of speed. when i get tired, i revert back to mostly countersteering and its less safe and slower. if i was better at the rest, id get less tired and wouldnt revert, so id prob be faster and safer.
the leg dangle is a matter of rider preference. its not a required skill, but it can make ppl feel better if they do it. the changes in speed due to comfort are much larger than changes in ideal speed due to physical changes in the rider/moto combo.
Riding a motorcycle is not 1's and 0's. It is not a digital process. It's more analog / fuzzy logic. If you are looking for a specific definable answer to motorcycling techniques, I don't think you are going to find it.
I found an old video of 500cc two stroke GP bikes, dangling the outside leg off the peg ... , style was a bit different in those days. At Laguna Seca, I don't know what year. I could make out Randy Mamola (7), Kenny Roberts (2), Freddie Spencer (19) . Probably because it's slow motion adding to the effect, but at 0:30 into the video, during a left to right transition, the riders seem to delay turn in after somewhat hanging off to setup for the right turn during corner approach. This is what I was referring to earlier. In other turns, they body shift and turn in at about the same time.
What racers did in the 80s and 90s is not really relevant any longer. Look no further than upper body positioning back then versus now.
Versus
There are times when you want to set up body position before the turn and there are times when you need your body position to help you turn. This isn’t black and white. Whatever helps you get around the track fastest is the right answer.
It seems like you’re trying to have someone give you a manual. If X, then Y. Like Enchanter said, riding a motorcycle at race pace isn’t that robotic.
I think it's pretty obvious that rcgldr is a troll.
He just keeps asking the same questions, and follow up questions, over and over to get you guys to type out long winded well thought out explanations just so he can do it again. Look over the 3 threads he has participated in since joining 7 days ago and it's all the same thing.
Just stop feeding the troll attention.
Here's a pretty transparent example, he asks to clarify the terms, Rob does so, then he asks to clarify the terms again.
"body steering" is that last 5% of going fast on a race track. its making sure that you try to hold the bike in a corner w/ the footpegs and not the bars. its making sure that you mash down on the footpegs during transitions. plenty of ppl can go fast while fucking this up, but no one can win races without it.
"body positioning" is the first 20% of going fast that everyone should do. its keep your CG in a good spot so that your lines are as tight as possible. its keeping your arms bent so u can control the bike well. the chances of someone going fast while doing this poorly are very slim.
Stangmx13's last post answered the original question, so I deleted my posts after his last post. Sorry for going off topic, I should have started another thread rather than hijack this one. (and no, I don't plan to start another thread, the prior posts already answered my questions).
Riding a motorcycle is not 1's and 0's. It is not a digital process. It's more analog / fuzzy logic. If you are looking for a specific definable answer to motorcycling techniques, I don't think you are going to find it.
Riding a motorcycle is not 1's and 0's. It is not a digital process. It's more analog / fuzzy logic. If you are looking for a specific definable answer to motorcycling techniques, I don't think you are going to find it.
lets not kid ourselves, Motobot will eventually beat Rossi/MM/etc. motorcycle racing is a definable problem - given a set of inputs, what controls are needed to produce the required output. the current issue is not that this concept is wrong. its that we havent yet defined enough of the inputs or possible controls. teaching a human is far cheaper than learning the rest and teaching a computer to do it. just give it time.
as far as jumping on rcgldr for trying to define more for himself, thats just bullshit. imagine where we'd be if similar complaints were made about Code, Foale, Ken Hill, etc. understanding is great. it may or may not help someone go faster around the track, but who cares. learning can be fruitful all by itself.
lets not kid ourselves, Motobot will eventually beat Rossi/MM/etc. motorcycle racing is a definable problem - given a set of inputs, what controls are needed to produce the required output. the current issue is not that this concept is wrong. its that we havent yet defined enough of the inputs or possible controls. teaching a human is far cheaper than learning the rest and teaching a computer to do it. just give it time.
as far as jumping on rcgldr for trying to define more for himself, thats just bullshit. imagine where we'd be if similar complaints were made about Code, Foale, Ken Hill, etc. understanding is great. it may or may not help someone go faster around the track, but who cares. learning can be fruitful all by itself.
Maybe. In that MotoBot can be programmed with a huge number of variables and responses to them, eventually. Whether that reaches the level of AI, or just passes the Turing test is moot. We all know just how many variables there can be out there and how quickly they arise.
Remember, on the track, the human brain integrates complex equations of velocity, time, weather, light, tire wear, braking ability, available traction and others, and does it in a real time basis that allows the rider to go pretty damn fast. My feeling on the Motobot is that it will never be a true AI, but rather a machine that is programmed to react to huge data inputs quickly.
The equations that one needs to do to program a robot to catch a thrown ball are pretty data dense, as the throw will vary every time. Yet a human does them with no problems instinctively.
Leg dangle is to take any possible weight from the inside peg so the bike doesn't initiate the turn in too early. MotoGP bikes are braking NEAR THE APEX at the same brake pressure as an AMA Superbike is using as it's max braking. At max braking, a MotoGP bike is near double the brake pressure of an AMA super bike. Riders that have their bodies shifted to the inside of the corner will inadvertently weight the inside peg at the wrong time when under max braking in some corners.
Notice when MotoGP riders do take the leg off, they're braking super heavy.
Leg dangle is to take any possible weight from the inside peg so the bike doesn't initiate the turn in too early. MotoGP bikes are braking NEAR THE APEX at the same brake pressure as an AMA Superbike is using as it's max braking. At max braking, a MotoGP bike is near double the brake pressure of an AMA super bike. Riders that have their bodies shifted to the inside of the corner will inadvertently weight the inside peg at the wrong time when under max braking in some corners.
Notice when MotoGP riders do take the leg off, they're braking super heavy.
