Counter steering vs weighting the pegs/body steering

[stangmx13]

Ergonomically it's much easier to pull than push. In a semi tuck the arms are already almost straight out, leaving a very large angle of moment. Whereas pulling decreases the angle of moment, meaning it gets easier the more you do it. I think I got the terminology correct.

When you are old and have arthritis in both shoulders, you become aware of these things.

That didn’t rly make sense. I think u are making a lot of assumptions for which muscle groups are doing the work. Perhaps, one of your muscle groups is weaker than others, causing a noticeable difference for u. Plus, the angle changes are small if u stay in a full tuck since the bars don’t need to rotate but a few degrees to initiate a counter steer.

 

[afm199]

That didn’t rly make sense. I think u are making a lot of assumptions for which muscle groups are doing the work. Perhaps, one of your muscle groups is weaker than others, causing a noticeable difference for u. Plus, the angle changes are small if u stay in a full tuck since the bars don’t need to rotate but a few degrees to initiate a counter steer.

Who initiates turns from a full tuck? Maybe T8 at Thill.

 

[Lewd_Ferrigno]

One other thing I’d explore, if I were you, is how to take a slower speed corner.

Fast corners tend to be easier, in my opinion.

The reason I bring this up, and I know I’ll get arguments from some, is that counter steering may not benefit so much in these corners. It depends on your riding style.

Here’s the reasoning, and I buried it to see how many people will read it

I grew up on pavement. Lived in Chicago and not much chance to ride in the dirt. So, my racing career was devoid of dirt training.

Then, I took a dirt track school. What it showed me is that, in tight turns, you’re often steering into the turn. The opposite of counter steering.

Once I did this, my lap times plummeted.

What I wound up with was a mix of counter steering when it made more sense and, in tight corners, steering slightly into the turn, with my body positioned forward, above the bars, forward on the tank, and keeping the bike on the fatter part of the tire which made it easier to accelerate out of the turn.

It may not make much sense, but riding a bike fast is a mix of many styles. Keith Code gives you a good base, but try other methods too. I try to take a different class, every year. If you keep at it, you’ll wind up with a mix of tactics.

You live relatively close to the dirt track Mecca. I suggest taking a course in that, too. It’s fun and you learn a ton about traction that you wouldn’t learn in CSS

 

[Lewd_Ferrigno]

At CSS I was having a problem with counter steering. I figured I must do it but I never really felt myself "push" on the handlebars.

Rode a training bike that has two sets of handlebars, normal set and a fixed set. Bike di not turn very fast when hands where on the fixed bars so after that I was probably even more confused as I still never pushed on the bars but clearly knew I was counter steering.

I found out I wasnt pushing with the bar. rather than push on right handlebar to turn right I was actually pulling on left bar. and vice-versa to go the other way.

Guess im just ass backwards....

Can I make a suggestion? Hold the bars a little looser. When you drop your shoulders to the inside, your hand should naturally go into a push motion.

If you have a death grip on the bars (common the first few times) it tends to screw up the fluidity of the motion.

That’s kinda why they show the drop motion a big exaggerated when they teach it. The motion comes from the drop, combined with the push on the bar and the outside leg on the tank.

EDIT: some bikes may need more force than others, but you shouldn’t have to Conan the bike in most situations

 

[Alan_Hepburn]

Back in the late '60s I took a driving class up at Sears Point - I can't recall if it was Bob Bondurant, or before his time. Anyway they taught us that to make a turn it was easier to push up on the steering wheel rather than to pull down on it. The reasoning was that by pushing you were pushing against the seat and the wheel; by pulling you were trying to pull yourself away from the seat - what this has to do with bikes; I have no idea!

 

[tzrider]

Alan, it has a lot of parallels. If we're talking about sportbikes, you can brake against the pegs and seat stop to anchor yourself for pushing. There really is no comparable anchor points if you're pulling.

On the matter of which is easier, they should be about the same, but people's bodies are different and some may have better developed muscles for doing one or the other. Also, when people pull, they tend to pull straight back, whereas when they push, many people push somewhat downward as well as forward. When this is the case, it can feel easier to pull than push because the force is better aligned with the steering axis.

My own preference is to push because it's easier to remain stable by anchoring on the pegs and seat stop.

 

[stangmx13]

Who initiates turns from a full tuck? Maybe T8 at Thill.

Sry, I somehow read full tuck instead of semi. It doesn’t matter anyway. The angle change is small for all positions. The only time your body drastically change angles is when u change positions, not due to steering.

 

[stangmx13]

One other thing I’d explore, if I were you, is how to take a slower speed corner.

Fast corners tend to be easier, in my opinion.

The reason I bring this up, and I know I’ll get arguments from some, is that counter steering may not benefit so much in these corners. It depends on your riding style.

Here’s the reasoning, and I buried it to see how many people will read it

I grew up on pavement. Lived in Chicago and not much chance to ride in the dirt. So, my racing career was devoid of dirt training.

Then, I took a dirt track school. What it showed me is that, in tight turns, you’re often steering into the turn. The opposite of counter steering.

Once I did this, my lap times plummeted.

What I wound up with was a mix of counter steering when it made more sense and, in tight corners, steering slightly into the turn, with my body positioned forward, above the bars, forward on the tank, and keeping the bike on the fatter part of the tire which made it easier to accelerate out of the turn.

It may not make much sense, but riding a bike fast is a mix of many styles. Keith Code gives you a good base, but try other methods too. I try to take a different class, every year. If you keep at it, you’ll wind up with a mix of tactics.

You live relatively close to the dirt track Mecca. I suggest taking a course in that, too. It’s fun and you learn a ton about traction that you wouldn’t learn in CSS

All corners are initiated by countersteering. And for all corners the front tire eventually points to the inside, ie the positive steering direction. Fast corners, slow corners, all of them. The angles are dependent on speed, turning radius, lean angle, and a host of other things. Generally, fast turns are plenty of counter steer and minimal positive steer. And slow turns are minimal counter steer and tons of positive steer. Tight corners where u flop the bike on your knee, say like the last corner at Sonoma, are good places to notice both counter and positive steer in the same corner.

On top of all that, the motorcycle generally accomplished the positive steering all by itself. If you find that you actually do need to positive steer to make a corner, it might indicate that you countersteered too much, too hard, or too long. Or that you were stiff arming the bars the whole time, slowing the positive steer.

 

[Lewd_Ferrigno]

All corners are initiated by countersteering. And for all corners the front tire eventually points to the inside, ie the positive steering direction. Fast corners, slow corners, all of them. The angles are dependent on speed, turning radius, lean angle, and a host of other things. Generally, fast turns are plenty of counter steer and minimal positive steer. And slow turns are minimal counter steer and tons of positive steer. Tight corners where u flop the bike on your knee, say like the last corner at Sonoma, are good places to notice both counter and positive steer in the same corner.

On top of all that, the motorcycle generally accomplished the positive steering all by itself. If you find that you actually do need to positive steer to make a corner, it might indicate that you countersteered too much, too hard, or too long. Or that you were stiff arming the bars the whole time, slowing the positive steer.

So, you’ve never course corrected on the gas without the bars being in non counter position?

 

[Lewd_Ferrigno]

All I’m trying to say is don’t focus on making the wheel point in the opposite direction. I’ve seen many new racers get it in their head that they need an enormous amount of input.

You’ve never seen a 6 apex carousel attempt from a newer track rider?

Get on a dirt bike. Learn a different way to steer. Especially when the tires are fried.

 

[tzrider]

If a rider is making six apexes, they’re screwing up several times. It doesn’t take riding a dirt bike to fix it.

 

[Lewd_Ferrigno]

If a rider is making six apexes, they’re screwing up several times. It doesn’t take riding a dirt bike to fix it.

Ok, maybe counter-steering wasn’t the right term. Sorry about that.

What I was TRYING to say is that sometimes it’s not so much you pushing the bar. Sometimes it requires not letting the bar push you.

What I’m trying to say is when the lack of rotational force makes the wheel fall into the turn, slow speed, you’re wheel is facing in the “right” direction, you can correct to that direction or use the throttle to correct you

 

[Lewd_Ferrigno]

And the 6 apex thing was pretty common at Road America

 

[stangmx13]

So, you’ve never course corrected on the gas without the bars being in non counter position?

On asphalt, if I spun the tire that much, I already did something wrong.

Here’s something u might not be considering:
If my bike is turning left and the tire is pointing left... and then I steer the bars more left, I just counter steered. Cuz what happens, the bike goes less left.

All I’m trying to say is don’t focus on making the wheel point in the opposite direction. I’ve seen many new racers get it in their head that they need an enormous amount of input.

You’ve never seen a 6 apex carousel attempt from a newer track rider?

Get on a dirt bike. Learn a different way to steer. Especially when the tires are fried.

I agree, u shouldn’t focus on pointing the tire in the wrong direction. It doesn’t point that way very far nor does it stay there very long. All that is a consequence of everything I described in my last post. Get your countersteering done, then focus on not inhibiting the bike as it does everything after.

All lean angle changes on a dirt bike use the same mechanics as on asphalt.

 

[Lewd_Ferrigno]

On asphalt, if I spun the tire that much, I already did something wrong.

Kinda my point. Which is why I focused on slow speed and mentioned traction loss.

 

[stangmx13]

Kinda my point. Which is why I focused on slow speed and mentioned traction loss.

That kinda a pointless train of thought though. For anyone slower than Expert race winners, spinning the tire means they did something wrong. IMO, That should be corrected before someone bothers learning a more advanced technique of how to spin the tire properly. And it’s mostly off topic for this thread.

 

[Lewd_Ferrigno]

That kinda a pointless train of thought though. For anyone slower than Expert race winners, spinning the tire means they did something wrong. IMO, That should be corrected before someone bothers learning a more advanced technique of how to spin the tire properly. And it’s mostly off topic for this thread.

You mean teaching someone who’s new track riding how to correct a mistake is bad? All I’m saying is ride a dirt bike so you can learn to manage low traction on both ends. It applies directly to road racing and street riding, as the physics are the same, and can teach you how to be faster and safer. And those things you learn may be counter to what you understand at the moment.

I’m done. Have a great night.

 

[jacob11379]

You mean teaching someone who’s new track riding how to correct a mistake is bad? All I’m saying is ride a dirt bike so you can learn to manage low traction on both ends. It applies directly to road racing and street riding, as the physics are the same, and can teach you how to be faster and safer. And those things you learn may be counter to what you understand at the moment.

I’m done. Have a great night.

I would certainly agree that dirt riding is a great asset to road riding. I went and took the supercamp about a month ago. Was a good time and a lot of things correlated to track riding.

For myself, I see no problem with pulling rather than pushing. im comfortable that way. In regards to the post about holding on to tight. No doubt I did a few track days like that but I would like to think that for the most part I have eliminated that habit. My hands get tired very quickly when i hold on for dear life so its really easy for me to catch it, realize the error and relax. If I want to ride for more than a few laps I dont have a choice but to be really loose with the bars.

I kinda laughed about the drop your elbow and you should push the bar. Because I put my arms in front of me like I was holding the bars, dropped my right elbow and moved my torso like I was going into a corner. My right hand stayed still and my left hand pulled back several inches...lol...dont know guess thats how I move...

Honestly, the only time I might consciously try pushing the bar is in tight switching turns. If it works better its something i might implement. but I also might find that I can pull the bar a little harder to get the same result...

Anyways thanks for the advice....I store as much of this stuff as i can, never know when an ah-ha moment happens and things change....

 

[JMardy]

Here's my 2 cents:
Countersteering is a stupid term that needs to die. You turn a motorcycle (above a certain speed) by turning the bars opposite of how you turn one at 5 miles an hour. That's just physics. Let it go. Calling it countersteering is pointless, it's just fu(k!ng steering. It's not like there's a non-countersteering option you can employ.
It's not a car. Stop thinking in those terms.

Push, pull, who cares. Just be aware of what you need to do to initiate and execute a turn. As long as you're not fighting against yourself it doesn't matter if you push on one side or pull on the other or both, just do it.

 

[stangmx13]

Here's my 2 cents:
Countersteering is a stupid term that needs to die. You turn a motorcycle (above a certain speed) by turning the bars opposite of how you turn one at 5 miles an hour. That's just physics. Let it go. Calling it countersteering is pointless, it's just fu(k!ng steering. It's not like there's a non-countersteering option you can employ.
It's not a car. Stop thinking in those terms.

Push, pull, who cares. Just be aware of what you need to do to initiate and execute a turn. As long as you're not fighting against yourself it doesn't matter if you push on one side or pull on the other or both, just do it.

I enjoyed your 2 cents.

I do wish more people realized the bolded part from day 1. for the new riders that ive been around, there seems to be a presumption that "anyone can ride a motorcycle", similar to the standard presumption that "anyone can drive a car". but both of those 2 things are definitely false, and more so for motorcycles. riding is far harder than driving, and some part of the population seems to be incapable of driving well.