Counter steering vs weighting the pegs/body steering

[jabs83]

I've seen some conflicting information, and kinda confused on the topic of steering.

With regards to track riding, are counter steering and weighting the pegs/body steering considered two different techniques for cornering of which you only choose one method? Or are they meant to be used in conjunction?

If they are two separate techniques, which method is preferred?

I've been doing a lot of body steering and weighting the pegs in the few track days that i've done. Haven't really been consciously doing any counter steering, so just wondering if thats another facet that i'll have to actually work in to my track craft?

 

[Honey Badger]

You're counter steering whether you realize it or not.

They are both techniques, and while you can counter steer without using weight, you're not getting around a track without counter steering.

Consciously using weight and body positioning to control the bike is, IMO, probably something you should NOT be focusing on at this point if you're under the impression you're not counter steering....there are far more basic controls and feel that you should be developing at this point in your riding.

Yes, it is an important tool - in a big bag of tools available to riders.

I would say, in regards to this specific area, learning to keep your upper body relaxed and having a light grip, and being aware of the inputs you are actually using would be far more beneficial than worrying about weighting pegs and affecting the bike with your body.

 

[stangmx13]

no one can make it around the racetrack solely w/ body steering. everyone can make it around a racetrack solely w/ countersteering. everyone running lap records uses both techniques in varying amounts for each corner. hard braking corners that require a slow addition of lean angle require very little body steering - its all mostly countersteering. fast or sharp transitions that dont use the brakes much require a lot more body steering, esp when near lap records, and still use a reasonable amount of countersteering.

yes, its very important to work on countersteering. well, its very important to work on not screwing up how the bike responds to countersteering. IMO a big mistake a lot of riders make is stiffening their inside arm. this prevents a countersteer from completing, forces the bike to run wide while also holding more lean angle than necessary, and reduces grip. its one of the worst things u can do with the handlebars while cornering.

 

[Slow Goat]

Interested in the replies...

I have a weakness in mid-to-high-speed rights, counter steering input with the throttle hand not being as strong/smooth.

 

[jabs83]

Thanks for the replies. Though i'm not consciously counter steering, I know its happening. But i haven't been forcing myself to "flick" the bike or anything like that.

I have been playing with weighting the pegs, and seeing the gyroscopic effect it has on my steering. So I have been able to use that to "tip" in at corners, and also hold a line.

One thing I am working on though is keeping the arms loose, and bracing with my legs/core to avoid unnecessary inputs to the clipons.

 

[DataDan]

One of the most significant improvements you can make in your ability to avoid the myriad hazards the riding gods test us with every day is to permanently etch the countersteering habit into your brain. Because--without a doubt--countersteering is the most effective way to initiate a change of direction on a motorcycle. Press on the left bar and you will lean left and go left RIGHT NOW.

I want to emphasize the importance of developing the habit. In a real-world traffic situation, you may not be able to rely on conscious thought. When that doofus on your right decides to merge into your lane, the second or two needed to weigh the pros and cons of peg weighting vs. body position vs. countersteering, then remind yourself, "press left, go left", is time you don't have. You want to be able to react without thinking.

All it takes to reach that level of skill is repetition. Every time you want to change direction, consciously press on the bar on that side. Every time. Whether you're pulling into your driveway, changing lanes, turning from a stop sign, or entering a curve on a mountain road. Do this for a few months, and you'll soon be able to dispense with the conscious thought part. It will just happen.

I don't dismiss the value of body position and peg weighting. You can control the motorcycle in subtle ways without countersteering. But don't let these more advanced subtleties interfere with your basic skill development.

BTW, in countersteering discussions, confusion sometimes arises about initiating a turn and maintaining path in a turn after initiation. Countersteering--a press on the inside bar--is how the motorcycle gets from straight and level to leaned and turning. Once in the turn, it may or may not be necessary to maintain pressure on the inside bar to stay in the curve. Even if it is, that's not the "countersteering" I'm talking about here.

 

[kiwi_outdoors]

This subject has been flogged to death in every MC forum that ever existed -please stop.

 

[Enchanter]

This subject has been flogged to death in every MC forum that ever existed -please stop.

May have been, but the guy is asking for help, not trying to discuss for the sake of debate.

We would like the Riding Skills forum to be a place where people can come to learn, ask about technique, etc. without fear of ridicule. Please help us maintain this forum with that in mind.

 

[Gixxer343]

Although it may have been flogged to death it's clear form his response that he doesn't understand it. He is convinced he is "tipping" the bike in with his peg weight. So let's flog.
It's countersteering plain and simple. You can introduce subtleties with peg weight and body position but without countersteering you are not effectively turning. Find Keith Code's video proving countersteering and you will be convinced.

 

[afm199]

As mentioned, the fast guys use counter steering and peg weighting. We all use countersteering, consciously or not, to initiate a turn. Tailoring it is usually far easier, less work, and more accurate using body weight on the inside peg.

 

[Smash Allen]

As mentioned, the fast guys use counter steering and peg weighting. We all use countersteering, consciously or not, to initiate a turn. Tailoring it is usually far easier, less work, and more accurate using body weight on the inside peg.

I think of bar input as a gross adjuster and peg input as a fine adjuster. Hopefully a fast guy agrees with me :laughing

 

[self_moto]

I don't think there is one way to steer bike, to make things even more complicated lets throw "pivot steering" into the mix (which might be related to body steering)

I think you should use all of them in conjunction, but level of involvement of each of these techniques in your riding will be different, and probably level balance will be different from rider to rider. But you need to understand all of them to use them properly.

Me personally I also don't "feel" that I counter steer consciously mid-turn, but I think it's probably due to incorrect locking on bike (outside leg).

 

[stangmx13]

countersteering becomes less and less obvious as you start to use the brakes harder and farther into corners. braking with any lean angle produces a torque at the steering head. the tire tries to turn into the corner when on the brakes, so the bars are fighting u the entire time. it takes bar pressure to hold them and prevent them from countersteering you OUT of the corner.

so with all that, fast cornering is a balance between a countersteering input, bar pressure against the torque caused by braking, any momentary input from peg weighting, and any gradual input from hanging off.

Me personally I also don't "feel" that I counter steer consciously mid-turn, but I think it's probably due to incorrect locking on bike (outside leg).

this goes back to tzriders point. u dont actually countersteer mid-turn. not one bit. assuming u are not on the brakes, the countersteer is a momentary input at corner entry. after that, the bars should be free to smoothly turn and point to the inside of the corner. if u dont allow them to turn freely, you will run wide or the bike will carry more lean angle than necessary. thats why its so important that u dont stiffen that inside arm.

of course, all that changes if u are on the brakes. but most riders dont start there. they learn to steer without trail braking first, learn proper countersteering. then later on they learn how to turn in while on the brakes. the order of that helps your muscle memory make sense of it all IMO.

 

[stangmx13]

I think of bar input as a gross adjuster and peg input as a fine adjuster. Hopefully a fast guy agrees with me :laughing

IMO, this is true of most corners. however, quick or fast transitions might require very aggressive peg inputs. u could crank on the bars instead, but itd upset the chassis and ask for more grip from the front tire. both of those are a big no-no if u are really moving, hence the peg inputs.

personally, im terrible at fast transitions... and its because i dont use my legs enough.

 

[jabs83]

countersteering becomes less and less obvious as you start to use the brakes harder and farther into corners. braking with any lean angle produces a torque at the steering head. the tire tries to turn into the corner when on the brakes, so the bars are fighting u the entire time.

... of course, all that changes if u are on the brakes. but most riders dont start there. they learn to steer without trail braking first, learn proper countersteering. then later on they learn how to turn in while on the brakes.

Ok, this is why i'm probably not realizing that i'm counter steering. In some corners, where the braking zone is longer, I am trailing the brakes into the apex. This also tightens up my radius, and I then weight the pegs to turn in, versus subconsciously counter steering. So kinda using the brakes as well for direction change as well.

 

[stangmx13]

Ok, this is why i'm probably not realizing that i'm counter steering. In some corners, where the braking zone is longer, I am trailing the brakes into the apex. This also tightens up my radius, and I then weight the pegs to turn in, versus subconsciously counter steering. So kinda using the brakes as well for direction change as well.

you are doing both to initiate the turn in, weighting the peg and subconsciously countersteering. dont forget this. itll be helpful should u find yourself coming in hot and u need to turn in fast. extra peg weighting isnt going to do much at all. but countersteering more/faster will help a lot.

 

[rcgldr]

With regards to track riding, are counter steering and weighting the pegs/body steering considered two different techniques for cornering of which you only choose one method?

Counter-steering is used to change lean angle (both to increase or decrease lean angle). Throttle and braking inputs can also affect lean angle, and counter-steering like inputs are used to compensate for unwanted effects (for example, to avoid standing up while under braking or acceleration). Riders hang off bikes for a variety of reasons (links posted below).

If you look at motorcycle racing videos, you often see riders hang off a bike during corner approach, well before turn in, while the bike is still going straight, and these cases, any body steering related response to hanging off while going straight is compensated for with steering inputs to keep the bike going straight. At turn-in if the rider is already hanging off, there's little or no body movement, just counter-steering input used to initiate and control lean angle during the turn. During mid-turn, riders may make mid-turn lean angle adjustments, they use counter-steering inputs to do this, again with virtually no body movement. I'm having trouble finding chase view videos of actual racing, but I did find this one of Freddie Spencer on a track day. Skip to 0:15 into the video.


youtu.be/MK8HPzTrR4M

As for body steering, I've seen videos of Keith Code's green "no bs" bike with a second set of handlebars that don't steer (just throttle and brake). That particular bike is nearly impervious to body steering inputs: extreme attempts at body steering on that bike (when using the second set of handlebars), only results in mild changes in lean angle. Other bikes, like dirt bikes, are more responsive to body steering.

A bit of history regarding hanging off on a motorcycle:

https://www.cycleworld.com/2014/08/...ing-styles-part-one-of-three-by-kevin-cameron

https://www.cycleworld.com/2014/08/...ing-styles-part-two-of-three-by-kevin-cameron

https://www.cycleworld.com/2014/08/...g-styles-part-three-of-three-by-kevin-cameron

 

[Honey Badger]

If you look at motorcycle racing videos, you often see riders hang off a bike during corner approach, well before turn in, while the bike is still going straight, and these cases, any body steering related response to hanging off while going straight is compensated for with steering inputs to keep the bike going straight. At turn-in there's little or no body movement,

I think you stated this in one of the other threads you were commenting on, but it shows a rather strong misunderstanding of what riders are doing, why they are doing, and when they are doing what. No racer is "hanging off" before turn in. We will "set up" for it, so we are doing less to upset the chassis of the bike under hard braking, so we simply have to move our upper body (and the majority of our weight) AT turn in. There's a large amount of body movement (but not shifting) at turn in. Hanging off while straight up and down would be nearly impossible, and kudos to anyone who can manage it :laughing

 

[rcgldr]

No racer is "hanging off" before turn in. We will "set up" for it, so we are doing less to upset the chassis of the bike under hard braking, so we simply have to move our upper body (and the majority of our weight) AT turn in. There's a large amount of body movement (but not shifting) at turn in. Hanging off while straight up and down would be nearly impossible, and kudos to anyone who can manage it.

So maybe I'm misunderstanding "set up". I did a quick scan of some motogp videos, and this was the first one that showed a bit of what I'm thinking about. What is this guy doing at 2:09 into this video?


youtu.be/N2M87PgMvw8

or at 1:53 in that Freddie Spencer video in my last post?

I also seem to recall in the case of a short straight between two turns in the same direction, or a double apex turn, the riders tend to hang off during the entire sequence, and it appears they aren't moving much, just using steering inputs to straighten up a bit between the two apexes, then lean back in at the second apex.

 

[Honey Badger]

He's set up for it, as the bike turns in, in a number of those sequences, you can see their head and upper body drop down into the corner. Compare how Marquez is sitting as he approaches the corner, vs when he's at max lean...photos below to compare as these guys are doing all of this so dang fast it can be hard to just "see" it.

Obviously countersteering is involved in getting the bike turned as well, and there are a LOT of little nuances that are going on if they need to correct anything, but I doubt even they could tell you every specific detail of what they are doing - if it was able to be broken down that much, then MotoBot would be able to be faster than Rossi, but the human brain takes and analyzes those things so quickly they can't program it into a robot yet.