Bummer low side on Grizzly Peak

[Archimedes]

He didn't say right at tip-in, just very soon into the turn:

Still, I don't know how he'd ever lose the front end fully off the brakes just on transition to full lean. You could bomb into a corner, slam the throttle closed, lean in and, unless there is something on the road, the tire isn't going to give up until you're really leaned way over, if at all.

I'm not trying to be an ass, just saying it pays to try to discover the true cause of the accident. When I had my one big get off, I analyzed it to death to make sure I understood everything I did that contributed to the crash.

 

[Addi65]

So perhaps the crash could have been avoided by slowing down a bit. Or remembering that dragging a knee on public roads in the hills may not be the best strategy for safe riding.

Dragging knee= track:thumbup agree

 

[tzrider]

I'm not trying to be an ass, just saying it pays to try to discover the true cause of the accident. When I had my one big get off, I analyzed it to death to make sure I understood everything I did that contributed to the crash.

I don't think we're going to know the exact cause of traction loss in this case. FH mentioned this corner is often dirty, so that could even be a factor.

Given that the OP entered the corner at a far higher speed than he intended, it seems that the most helpful takeaways would have something to do with helping him ensure his entry speed is right.

 

[afm199]

I don't think we're going to know the exact cause of traction loss in this case. FH mentioned this corner is often dirty, so that could even be a factor.

Given that the OP entered the corner at a far higher speed than he intended, it seems that the most helpful takeaways would have something to do with helping him ensure his entry speed is right.

Short form: Going too fast and crashed.

 

[tzrider]

Short form: Going too fast and crashed.

Yeah.

I don't normally like solutions where the bottom line is, "Slow down." In this case, we don't know if it was even possible to ride the turn at the speed he was going and we do know that he got into the turn faster than he meant to.

OP, if you're still here, do you remember what you were looking at as you exited the preceding turn?

 

[Archimedes]

Short form: Going too fast and crashed.

I agree with this on a simple level giving consideration to the skill level of the average street rider. But given the fact that his speed was almost certainly not too fast for the turn by definition, i.e., a more skilled rider could likely have easily completed the turn at his speed, I believe there is an opportunity to learn something here. Something that could save his life the next time.

 

[flying_hun]

Andy, the nice thing about the vanishing point is that it provides a heuristic for judging entry speed. It's a little better than just slow down. It will be interesting to learn the answer to your question.

 

[latindane]

Still, I don't know how he'd ever lose the front end fully off the brakes just on transition to full lean. You could bomb into a corner, slam the throttle closed, lean in and, unless there is something on the road, the tire isn't going to give up until you're really leaned way over, if at all.

I'm not trying to be an ass, just saying it pays to try to discover the true cause of the accident. When I had my one big get off, I analyzed it to death to make sure I understood everything I did that contributed to the crash.

Not to be an ass either, but there is a big difference between bombing in, closing throttle and leaning, and braking hard, abruptly releasing the brakes and leaning. The front will be more loaded in your scenario, and I think you can be unlucky with the timing of the rebound of the front suspension and the traction demands at the front, especially if there are other things going on like the rider stiffening up on the bars. The compress/extend/compress of the second scenario must leave the front in a more precarious position (particularly at the extend-compress point) than in the scenario you offered (there it's just compress).

 

[danate]

Hi5. I think this goose is cooked. Nice discussion though.

 

[clutchslip]

Fascinating thread with enormous debate, when I believe afm199 pretty much summed-it-up. Below is the previous corner where JoshThor was dragging knee. I would have to be going 95mph plus to get close to dragging a knee there, I believe. And of course it is not clear visibility to the next corner.

I am particularly taken that the o.p assumes the hill will save him. I must assume that he also thought that on the previous right hand corner. Of course, this ignores the possibility of a car intercepting him before he hits the hill, or he intercepting ME, while I cruise along in the opposite direction.

Anything beyond CVC 22350, is too much discussion in my opinion. Slow down and/or get better body position. That is not a knee dragging corner, really.

Others, I was definitely riding too fast into the left. There was no panic. The ATC and ABS were both active at the time. It was a conscious decision to turn into the left. I knew the dirt hill would catch me on the low side if I couldn't hold the road.

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[Sv2001]

So perhaps the crash could have been avoided by slowing down a bit. Or remembering that dragging a knee on public roads in the hills may not be the best strategy for safe riding.

^ what ernie said ^

 

[JoshThor]

...In this case, we don't know if it was even possible to ride the turn at the speed he was going and we do know that he got into the turn faster than he meant to.

OP, if you're still here, do you remember what you were looking at as you exited the preceding turn?

I fully believe it was possible to take that turn at my speed. Though I don't know if it was possible for me at that moment.

I wasn't looking toward the entry point to the next turn. When I came out of the previous turn, I was looking at the next turn, but not with a collected mind as I should have been. Coming out of the right too fast, I let myself be surprised with how close I was to the next. I did not look to the vanishing point for the line/apex of the left. I applied heavy brake pressure, released and turned my head quickly to the left right before tip-in. A mistake that I believe I made due to my speed. Also, I recall the whole of the road being relatively clean that day. I would not factor loose dirt/gravel into the crash.

...given the fact that his speed was almost certainly not too fast for the turn by definition, i.e., a more skilled rider could likely have easily completed the turn at his speed, I believe there is an opportunity to learn something here. Something that could save his life the next time.

I appreciate all of the insight and opinions from all the riders here. This is why I posted the crash. I'm happy to see that this post sparked a reasonable conversation.

 

[RJouts]

Or remembering that dragging a knee on public roads in the hills may not be the best strategy for safe riding.

Yeah, and if you do grizzly peak seems like a real poor road for it. Lots of rock falls down into the middle of the curves, sightseers pulling out/in of the turnouts, plus if you blow a turn there's decent number of them where you're headed off the side of the mountain.

 

[CurveSurfer]

nothing to add but I was surprised to learn there's a basic disagreement about whether these types of crashes arise from "not enough load on the tire" or "too much load on the tire."

most of the popular riding coaches seem to focus on preventing the latter, e.g. Nick Ienatsch talks about having 100 points of traction available, and trading inputs (subtracting braking points while adding cornering points) to prevent exceeding that allotment (which would result in a crash).

I don't recall any similar lessons about maintaining a minimum number of traction points by loading the tire with braking or rolling off throttle. Of course there are limits (a tire off the ground in a wheelie or stoppie has no traction) and nearly every coach promotes smooth inputs.

 

[tzrider]

I wasn't looking toward the entry point to the next turn. When I came out of the previous turn, I was looking at the next turn, but not with a collected mind as I should have been. Coming out of the right too fast, I let myself be surprised with how close I was to the next.

Josh, thanks for your candor throughout the thread. You words above remind me of the progression of faster bikes I went through as I learned to ride. More than once, I experienced a dramatic surprise on roads or tracks I knew well when I rode them on a dramatically faster bike.

We don't often talk about our sense of timing while riding. It's a little more intangible than other aspects of riding, but nonetheless, we get accustomed to how long certain things should take and base some of our riding decisions on that. Entering a familiar turn, you can predict about how long it will take to slow down on a bike you know well and you base your decision about where to brake on that.

One of the things that has taken me by surprise in the past is how harder acceleration would compress time between familiar corners. The time it took to get from the exit of one turn on Mines Road to the next was vastly shorter on a 900RR than it had been on the Hawk 650 it had replaced. My TZ 250 made the distance between turns 2 and 3 at Thunderhill seem about half what it had on my 916. I didn't crash in these instances, but I sure found myself having a moment on the brakes.

You don't have all that many mile on the new bike. Would you say you're fully accustomed to its acceleration in various settings or may this have contributed a little bit to losing concentration? Might you have felt that you have a little more time to relax coming out of the right before you needed to focus on the upcoming left?

 

[JoshThor]

You don't have all that many mile on the new bike. Would you say you're fully accustomed to its acceleration in various settings or may this have contributed a little bit to losing concentration? Might you have felt that you have a little more time to relax coming out of the right before you needed to focus on the upcoming left?

This is a good thought. I'll answer your second question first as it is the easiest one: I did feel that I was going to have more time between the turns than was reality. I closed the distance between the two much faster than I intended or expected (or had in the past).

To answer the first part of your question (this thought may not translate exactly how it's running through my head): I am very comfortable on the controls of this bike and how it reacts to my input. But, I think I have reached a point where I need to take it down a notch for a while. I am now aware that, although I am comfortable and confident with the performance of the motorcycle, the reality is that I still have logged less than 4k on it. Which is not enough to be pushing myself at the level I was on the street. It's going to be challenging to exercise the self control, but I got lucky this time; and I don't want to be posting on this forum again unless it's because my buddy knocked a bike over in the garage.

 

[clutchslip]

This is a good thought. I'll answer your second question first as it is the easiest one: I did feel that I was going to have more time between the turns than was reality. I closed the distance between the two much faster than I intended or expected (or had in the past).

To answer the first part of your question (this thought may not translate exactly how it's running through my head): I am very comfortable on the controls of this bike and how it reacts to my input. But, I think I have reached a point where I need to take it down a notch for a while. I am now aware that, although I am comfortable and confident with the performance of the motorcycle, the reality is that I still have logged less than 4k on it. Which is not enough to be pushing myself at the level I was on the street. It's going to be challenging to exercise the self control, but I got lucky this time; and I don't want to be posting on this forum again unless it's because my buddy knocked a bike over in the garage.

Finally. You were going too damn fast for conditions. That road is not in that great of shape. Meaning your pseudo-race suspension must work harder than on a track, and traction is diminished. How fast were you going on that corner that you say you dragged knee, and I say it takes 100 PLUS to even get close?

And please see my post in another CA thread about riding a road to check conditions, FIRST, before bombing along. Hell, they have sighting laps in racing, for Enchanter's sake.

I hope I don't sound like a nagging nanny, because that is NOT my intent. I have survived going some stupid speeds in the hills, as with others here. It is just that we know better, now. And I want everyone to stay safe. (Even if your bike is faster than mine.)

 

[kangaroo]

question for OP that is if you can recall, which tire lost traction first, the front or rear? Or do you remember just intentionally crashing by stiffening up while locking up the front? Is that even possible with the newer ABS?

 

[Hooli]

How fast were you going on that corner that you say you dragged knee, and I say it takes 100 PLUS to even get close?

I'd say you're mistaken in that regard...you can drag a knee at parking lot speeds if you really try.

 

[clutchslip]

I'd say you're mistaken in that regard...you can drag a knee at parking lot speeds if you really try.

I suppose you can drag a knee going straight. So? That's a big circumference to be dragging a knee at parking lot speeds, in my opinion. I actually reduced the speed that I would have to go to drag knee on that curve. Perhaps this is all about body positioning, and I (we) are missing the main trust of the problem. :dunno