Bummer low side on Grizzly Peak

[JoshThor]

I can't even guess how many times I've rode this. I was riding South on Grizzly Peak. Just after the stop at Fish Ranch, I opened it up and dragged my right knee around the second sweeper. I let my mind slip for a split second and the reduced left hand curve caught me off guard. I hammered the brakes, but could't stand it up, so I leaned left and hung on with my balls in my throat. The turn was just too tight. Luckily I only slid on asphalt for about 10 feet before the dirt hill caught me. A little rashed leather and a sore PCL are my only injuries. But my S1000R with only 3600 miles in her is now hurting for some new plastics, a shifter, and turn signal.

I forgot my mantra: "The most important turn of your life is always the next one"

 

[bunnygoat]

the left right before the lookout?

 

[afm199]

So perhaps the crash could have been avoided by slowing down a bit. Or remembering that dragging a knee on public roads in the hills may not be the best strategy for safe riding.

 

[latindane]

Let me see if I get it straight. You were dragging knee on a right-hander, then as a left-hander was approaching, you braked, then released the brakes and turned in, and lost the front? Did you lose it pretty much right after turn-in, or close to the apex, or after that?

 

[duffyduzz]

One of my concerns that I even try to warn others about, is novice riders on bikes that may or may NOT be right for their skill level, getting in a corner too hot, over-reacting on the brakes, low or high siding and sliding across the road into my lane and taking me - or my sister or a friend - OUT in the process of the crash. This scenario has occurred several times in these Oakland / Berk. hills... A LOT of high speed "practice" takes place up there on Grizzly and Redwood etc., etc. ~ ~ Yeah, best to learn at a track day where everyone is going the same direction and there's some room for run-off / mistakes...

 

[Enchanter]

One of my concerns that I even try to warn others about, is novice riders on bikes that may or may NOT be right for their skill level, getting in a corner too hot, over-reacting on the brakes, low or high siding and sliding across the road into my lane and taking me - or my sister or a friend - OUT in the process of the crash. This scenario has occurred several times in these Oakland / Berk. hills... A LOT of high speed "practice" takes place up there on Grizzly and Redwood etc., etc. ~ ~ Yeah, best to learn at a track day where everyone is going the same direction and there's some room for run-off / mistakes...

Do you think that the size of the motorcycle was a primary cause factor for this crash?

Since this is Crash Analysis, do you have any advice for this rider that would help them avoid this crash in the future?

 

[duffyduzz]

Bummer low side on Grizzly Peak - more...

Enchanter: Not necessarily the "size" of the bike as the factor but could have been one of a few. Typically it's "lack of traction control" as the main factor in these types of crashes. Or, lack of dirt bike experience and/or sliding a dirt bike. When you become adept at that one aspect, even if you learned it on a 100cc Honda XR, you typically can correct to maintain control. My advice would be, go to an MSF off road dirt riding class and get comfortable with "backing in" and "power sliding" out of turns. Do it over and over in a figure eight so that you're doing lefts and rights. You will become SO much better a street rider once you've mastered "controlling a lack of traction"... Just my .02 cents...

 

[louemc]

Enchanter: Not necessarily the "size" of the bike as the factor but could have been one of a few. Typically it's "lack of traction control" as the main factor in these types of crashes. Or, lack of dirt bike experience and/or sliding a dirt bike. When you become adept at that one aspect, even if you learned it on a 100cc Honda XR, you typically can correct to maintain control. My advice would be, go to an MSF off road dirt riding class and get comfortable with "backing in" and "power sliding" out of turns. Do it over and over in a figure eight so that you're doing lefts and rights. You will become SO much better a street rider once you've mastered "controlling a lack of traction"... Just my .02 cents...

:thumbup Thats Key, and...Dirt is where the frequency of the instructive use, is.

Pavement just doesn't provide that. It takes a lot of time,
in all the variable situation, combinations...To Program your mind and body.
Public road pavement shouldn't even be approached like that.

 

[danate]

So a few questions.

1) What happened to make the bike go down? Did you lose the front?

2) Did you have all that fancy traction control and stuff turned on on that bike?

3) Do you feel that when you "opened it up and dragged my right knee" you went beyond your comfort zone speed wise and possible panicked a bit?

4) On that note, do you feel the power of the bike may have bit you in that regard?

Having learned on a liter bike, my expert riding friend told me to pretty much never "open it up" while learning as a liter bike is the fastest way to accelerate out of your comfort zone.

Still need more details for your crash, but it sounds like you accelerated way too fast out of the first turn and your mind was focused on that instead of looking to the next turn to prepare. This comes down to a lot of the basics like not out-riding your sight line and always looking where you want to go.

How long have you been riding?

 

[Enchanter]

Enchanter: Not necessarily the "size" of the bike as the factor but could have been one of a few. Typically it's "lack of traction control" as the main factor in these types of crashes. Or, lack of dirt bike experience and/or sliding a dirt bike. When you become adept at that one aspect, even if you learned it on a 100cc Honda XR, you typically can correct to maintain control. My advice would be, go to an MSF off road dirt riding class and get comfortable with "backing in" and "power sliding" out of turns. Do it over and over in a figure eight so that you're doing lefts and rights. You will become SO much better a street rider once you've mastered "controlling a lack of traction"... Just my .02 cents...

:thumbup Thats Key, and...Dirt is where the frequency of the instructive use, is.

Pavement just doesn't provide that. It takes a lot of time,
in all the variable situation, combinations...To Program your mind and body.
Public road pavement shouldn't even be approached like that.

Guys, let's bring it back to crash analysis.

What were the direct casue factors of this crash?

Can you provide some advice, perhaps a technique or skill that the OP can immediately use to help them avoid this situation in the future?

 

[duffyduzz]

Here's one... "Foot Out," like the Moto G.P. riders do going into certain high speed turns . "Knee Out" will not give you enough leverage to right the bike's attitude if there's a slip. This is one reason I like a "sport standard" riding position, where my legs / feet are more forward and are able to quickly move off the peg to help correct. A quick touch down with a foot can provide that all important third contact point (like a flat tracker) that can save a lack of traction scenario. A sport bike riding position puts your feet so far behind you that it's difficult to get that foot forward fast enough to be of any help. Thus, why the Moto G.P. riders are going into some turns "Foot Out"... Foot is already there to provide that third contact, rather than a knee which would probably mean you're too far down already to enable a "save"... Unless, of course, you're Marc Marquez... Again, just my .02 cents..

 

[GAJ]

OP, were you maintaining a speed that allowed you to see 4 seconds ahead?

From your comments you "know" the road in question like the back of your hand yet the corner seems to have "surprised" you...despite there being no obstacles that might have been new since your previous experience on that road.

My one and only solo crash on a back country road was on a road I "knew like the back of my hand;" my problem was I was riding beyond the capabilites of the bike in question, not new obstacles, (brake fade due to excessive speed/repeated hard braking on a bike known for marginal braking capabilities...Nighthawk 750).

 

[Enchanter]

Here's one... "Foot Out," like the Moto G.P. riders do going into certain high speed turns . "Knee Out" will not give you enough leverage to right the bike's attitude if there's a slip. This is one reason I like a "sport standard" riding position, where my legs / feet are more forward and are able to quickly move off the peg to help correct. A quick touch down with a foot can provide that all important third contact point (like a flat tracker) that can save a lack of traction scenario. A sport bike riding position puts your feet so far behind you that it's difficult to get that foot forward fast enough to be of any help. Thus, why the Moto G.P. riders are going into some turns "Foot Out"... Foot is already there to provide that third contact, rather than a knee which would probably mean you're too far down already to enable a "save"... Unless, of course, you're Marc Marquez... Again, just my .02 cents..

Google the technique and you will find many different theories as to why MotoGP riders do this, but " A quick touch down with a foot can provide that all important third contact point (like a flat tracker) that can save a lack of traction scenario." is surprisingly absent.

When it comes to this crash, it might be more productive to analyze the events preceding the crash. What took place seconds before the crash? Minutes?

 

[Sal Paradise]

I can't even guess how many times I've rode this. I was riding South on Grizzly Peak. Just after the stop at Fish Ranch, I opened it up and dragged my right knee around the second sweeper. I let my mind slip for a split second and the reduced left hand curve caught me off guard.

As I see it, crash analysis begins there. You lost focus at a crucial point, and everything else followed from that. Now:

1. What distracted you?
2. How can you prevent it from happening again?

This is the view to the left curve where you crashed:

[gmap]<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&ll=37.866291,-122.221817&spn=0.000017,0.009795&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=37.86636,-122.221995&panoid=2qlUzQcAmfpMM1Vnl2qLOw&cbp=12,302.92,,0,0&source=embed&output=svembed"></iframe><br /><small><a href="https://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&ll=37.866291,-122.221817&spn=0.000017,0.009795&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=37.86636,-122.221995&panoid=2qlUzQcAmfpMM1Vnl2qLOw&cbp=12,302.92,,0,0&source=embed" style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left">View Larger Map</a></small>[/gmap]

It's a blind curve you've ridden many times, so you've probably learned some reference points--if not by way of intentional planning then just from familiarity. The last tree, the tar snake, the clear spots on the shoulder where cars have pulled off the road. Something cues you to the actions you take. And looking for your reference point as you exit the preceding right curve will immediately remind you to slow down.

So what took your mind off of the road? Another vehicle? Bicyclist?

Or maybe this was just not a good day to ride. If you had been distracted by other matters, an unpleasant surprise earlier in the ride would have alerted you to slow down.

 

[JoshThor]

Thanks all for the replies.

All great advice, and noted. To answer a few questions:

Sal, that's the turn in your pic. I think it's exactly as you said, I lost focus at a crucial point. I had a great run up to that point. But, I came out of that right turn not remembering how close the next left was.

Others, I was definitely riding too fast into the left. There was no panic. The ATC and ABS were both active at the time. It was a conscious decision to turn into the left. I knew the dirt hill would catch me on the low side if I couldn't hold the road.

 

[latindane]

You didn't answer my questions (understandable), so I can't be sure, but I suspect that you let go of the brakes rather abruptly around the time of turn in, which meant loss of traction in the front rather early in the turn.

Your crash seems like a good example of why even street riders should have trail braking as part of their "toolbox", even if, in principle, you should never put yourself in a position of "running in too hot" on the street.

 

[danate]

Just saying Josh, if you really want to figure out why you crashed, we need to break it down in detail. Your initial description is a bit vague as you said you tried to hammer the brakes, but also that you leaned really hard to the left. You also don't say where your turn entry point was. Were you turning in from the outside or did you perhaps early apex it?

It's very important to figure out where and why you lost traction and also to know if you were braking into the turn or if you had your throttle cracked when you were adding all that lean.

If you don't care, then might as well end this with the blanket statement that you went too fast into the turn. If you keep on analyzing, perhaps we can find some ways you could have made it out without going down.

 

[JoshThor]

Latindane, I did release the brakes pretty abruptly. I had no brake pressure applied when I entered the turn. I came into the left from the outside 1/3 or so of the lane and lost the front very soon into the turn.

Danate, I had the throttle closed when I entered from the outside. I believe it remained closed as I went down. I keep a flat wrist on my throttle grip to prevent those accidental flicks. I was not braking once I leaned in. I had fully released the brakes prior to the entry (maybe too abruptly, as Latindane had suggested). Another thought is that my body wasn't positioned ideally for the tight left. My bodyweight was more centered than I think it should have been. I didn't give myself enough time to shift left as I should have.

 

[danate]

So you did all your braking before tipping in, still felt you had too much speed and the bike went down before you got on the throttle? The throttle is your friend in turns and having it cracked can help pull you through. If you didn't get back on the throttle, your bike was still decelerating and putting extra weight on the front contact patch. Probably cause the front to go out.

Using your body weight would definitely be a factor as well. Even if not hanging off, getting your torso off the bike can get you that extra bit of turn you need.

 

[latindane]

The first bit that danate writes is IMO bad advice in this situation. "Think you are going too fast for the turn? Crack the throttle open!"

The problem was letting go of the brakes abruptly before turning in. It was a problem because your front suspension extended, taking weight OFF of the front. That means that your front tire was unloaded when you asked it to give you a chunk of traction for a fast turn (an aggressive flick will be your enemy here, so there I agree with danate that using body weight to complement countersteering may have helped). What you needed to do is stay on the brakes longer, releasing them as you turn in (try and find either write-ups or videos about trail braking; Nick Ienatsch is a good bet).

Cracking the throttle open unloads the front even more, so the result would have been the same, since you just aggravate the problem. By staying on the brakes and releasing as you turn in, you keep the front tire loaded, so the tire can continue providing you traction while you turn. Bonus: you keep reducing speed, which was the start of the problem.

Trail braking would have probably saved you then, but, as I said before, that just means your speed was definitely excessive for the street.