Bummer low side on Grizzly Peak

[tzrider]

Trail braking would have probably saved you then, but, as I said before, that just means your speed was definitely excessive for the street.

The only way trail braking would have saved him is if he truly was going too fast as he entered the turn and needed to slow down more. If he didn't crash at the moment he set the lean angle and had the bike on line, getting the gas cracked open would have taken weight and cornering force off the front, put both ends of the suspension in their proper operating range and given him the most traction the bike is capable of.

It doesn't matter how quickly he let off the brakes. Once turned in, there was plenty of pressure on the front end and the fork would have been in its bottom third of travel. By staying off the gas, there was probably too much weight on the front.

 

[latindane]

The only way trail braking would have saved him is if he truly was going too fast as he entered the turn and needed to slow down more. If he didn't crash at the moment he set the lean angle and had the bike on line, getting the gas cracked open would have taken weight and cornering force off the front, put both ends of the suspension in their proper operating range and given him the most traction the bike is capable of.

It doesn't matter how quickly he let off the brakes. Once turned in, there was plenty of pressure on the front end and the fork would have been in its bottom third of travel. By staying off the gas, there was probably too much weight on the front.

I thought I agreed with your first paragraph, just not your assumption. But realized that's not the case.

I agree that, had the OP reached max lean, then cracking the throttle open would be much better than to just coast with the throttle closed, since that puts more demands on the front tire than maintenance throttle at lean.

From what I can figure out from the OP's recollection, he lost traction at turn-in, not after turning in and getting the bike on line (so your "If" doesn't apply if that is true).

I hope we can agree that an unloaded tire will lose traction before a loaded tire does. That is why it does matter if he released the brakes abruptly just before turn-in. That is also why I also disagree with the first sentence on your first paragraph; trail braking would have avoided that unloading of the front just before turn-in, even if he was going slower than the absolute maximum speed at which that turn can be entered.

 

[tzrider]

I hope we can agree that an unloaded tire will lose traction before a loaded tire does.

What we don't agree on is that the tire isn't loaded. His bike has static weight distribution around 55% on the front and it's more than that coming into a corner off the gas. The tire had plenty of load.

We don't know if he had reached full lean angle or not, but he said something very telling: "I leaned left and hung on with my balls in my throat." This doesn't portray a rider who is relaxed on the bars and allowing the front suspension to do its job.

All of this aside, the OP entered the corner faster than he would have ever intended to and that's the error we and he should focus on to prevent a repeat performance. It may be that at that speed the bike wasn't going to stick no matter what.

OP, at the speed you exited the previous corner at, would it have been physically possible to slow for the upcoming left in the space you had? In other words, is this a case where you have to be thinking about the entry speed for the left before you can even see it?

 

[latindane]

What we don't agree on is that the tire isn't loaded. His bike has static weight distribution around 55% on the front and it's more than that coming into a corner off the gas. The tire had plenty of load.

We don't know if he had reached full lean angle or not, but he said something very telling: "I leaned left and hung on with my balls in my throat." This doesn't portray a rider who is relaxed on the bars and allowing the front suspension to do its job.

That 55% number doesn't apply to right after the suspension rebounds from abruptly letting go of the brake...

The fact that the OP was dragging knee the corner before means we can ask...

OP, did you lose traction before or after you reached "knee-dragging" lean angle on that left turn?

Absolutely agree that excessive speed was the cause of the problem and that it is imperative to work on that. Hopefully that means never putting yourself in this situation again. Should that happen though, braking hard, releasing brake abruptly and turning in hard is likely to put him back on the ground.

 

[danate]

" I hammered the brakes, but could't stand it up, so I leaned left and hung on with my balls in my throat. The turn was just too tight."

I am interpreting this as he tried braking, then tipped it in and did not apply any throttle after leaning it over. In this case, it overloads the front tire and causes you to lose traction. You have to have the throttle "cracked" (It's a Keith Code term for maintenance throttle, not accelerating) to maintain proper weight distribution between the front and rear.

Without getting on the throttle, it's like tipping in fast while remaining on the brakes at high speed. A recipe for a wipeout.

 

[JoshThor]

OP, at the speed you exited the previous corner at, would it have been physically possible to slow for the upcoming left in the space you had? In other words, is this a case where you have to be thinking about the entry speed for the left before you can even see it?

I believe, had I applied brake pressure as soon as exiting the right, I would have been able to maintain a speed into the left within my ability. There was time and space to do so, however, I didn't use all of the time and space to prepare.

 

[JoshThor]

I am interpreting this as he tried braking, then tipped it in and did not apply any throttle after leaning it over. In this case, it overloads the front tire and causes you to lose traction. You have to have the throttle "cracked" (It's a Keith Code term for maintenance throttle, not accelerating) to maintain proper weight distribution between the front and rear.

Danate, that's exactly what I did. I tried to lean in from the outside of my lane and was down before establishing an angle to complete the turn.

 

[latindane]

Danate, that's exactly what I did. I tried to lean in from the outside of my lane and was down before establishing an angle to complete the turn.

By "before establishing an angle to complete the turn" do you mean before you reached maximum lean angle? Or after leaning but before your turning radius matched the turn?

I am talking to the first case, while I agree with what danate and tzrider are saying if it is the second.

Maintenance throttle should be applied when leaned over, not while you are continuing to increase lean angle, if I remember Code right.

 

[danate]

Danate, that's exactly what I did. I tried to lean in from the outside of my lane and was down before establishing an angle to complete the turn.

In that case it sounds like you washed out on the tip in. Were you still heavy on the brakes when you began to lean? The re-application of throttle happens very quickly after tipping in as it shifts the extra weight to your rear wheel keeping your front from pushing. If you were going so fast you couldn't muscle the bike into the lean, there may have been no hope other than braking earlier as you say.

 

[latindane]

In that case it sounds like you washed out on the tip in. Were you still heavy on the brakes when you began to lean? The re-application of throttle happens very quickly after tipping in as it shifts the extra weight to your rear wheel keeping your front from pushing. If you were going so fast you couldn't muscle the bike into the lean, there may have been no hope other than braking earlier as you say.

He answered this already...

Latindane, I did release the brakes pretty abruptly. I had no brake pressure applied when I entered the turn. I came into the left from the outside 1/3 or so of the lane and lost the front very soon into the turn.

Danate, I had the throttle closed when I entered from the outside. I believe it remained closed as I went down. I keep a flat wrist on my throttle grip to prevent those accidental flicks. I was not braking once I leaned in. I had fully released the brakes prior to the entry (maybe too abruptly, as Latindane had suggested). Another thought is that my body wasn't positioned ideally for the tight left. My bodyweight was more centered than I think it should have been. I didn't give myself enough time to shift left as I should have.

I can see that danate and I had very different mental images of what happened when giving alternative actions that may have helped.

Correct me if I'm wrong danate, but what you envisioned was: guy is leaned over in the turn, with throttle still closed, too much weight on the front -> washed out. Then we agree. As soon as the lean was achieved, cracking the throttle open would balance the bike and avoid overwhelming the front. This would imply the loss of traction was around the time his max lean was achieved.

I envisioned: OP brakes hard, releases brake abruptly and turns in aggressively. Front tire is unloaded because it is in the rebound stage (read: less loaded than if the suspension had had the time to settle), which means it can give less traction during turn-in. This would imply an earlier loss of traction than in the scenario above; very soon after turn-in was initiated.

If this was the case, braking earlier would obviously have been the best solution. But, failing that, releasing the front brake smoothly rather than abruptly would have kept the front loaded, and could have saved it. He had not reached the "no hope" point yet.

 

[tzrider]

Latindane, I did release the brakes pretty abruptly. I had no brake pressure applied when I entered the turn. I came into the left from the outside 1/3 or so of the lane and lost the front very soon into the turn.

Josh, it may be that your entry speed was just too high and all the stuff we're talking about to try to save it at that point is academic. In case it's not, there is a very common error riders make when steering that we get away with under most conditions but that can make you lose the front when closer to the limit:

You know that to lean the bike to the left you push forward on the left bar (and/or pull back on the right bar). Once the bike reaches your desired lean angle, the correct action to make it stop leaning farther is to simply stop pressing the bar. The error many riders make, especially when flicking quickly is to "arrest" the lean angle change by tightening on the bars; either pulling back a bit on the left grip or pushing forward on the right one.

This creates an observable load on the front tire; you can actually see the forks compress a bit when a rider does this. It creates a sharp momentary rise in force at the contact patch and if you're close enough to the limit of traction, it can induce a front slide.

If this was the case, braking earlier would obviously have been the best solution. But, failing that, releasing the front brake smoothly rather than abruptly would have kept the front loaded, and could have saved it. He had not reached the "no hope" point yet.

Latindane and I are having a discussion about this offline, as I don't want to put the OP in the position of trying to reconcile two opposing views.

I would respectfully suggest that the key to avoiding a repeat performance will be found somewhere before the place where Josh decided it was time to slow down.

 

[danate]

I agree this is a bit of a challenge to piece together. You nailed our different interpretations latindane. Both are plausible scenarios.

Only Josh would be able to know where in the the chain of events it all happened. Then again it may have happened too fast for him to recall.

As we all agree, the speed was the primary factor. Be very wary of "opening it up" with liter bikes on public streets.

 

[NTron3000]

There is also the possibility that dude bailed out of a scary situation. He was distracted came in hot and out of control and initiated turn, was totally uncomfortable and out of position on the bike and freaked the fuck out and bailed. This is not a knock on the rider. It might have been the best option. Rather than being in a turn with out of control speed and lean angle with unknown consequences he 'instictively' chose to bail to a 'safe' landing. Not that I'm advocating laying it down but it's a game theory problem at the point of instantaneous decision. These things are also not always conscious.

The description of going down before reaching max lean means his initial tip-in would have to have been so erratic that it washed the front before anything else started scraping. That's... unusual if you are committed and riding through the turn - though of course tight grip and erratic inputs can put a bike down well before max lean. I'm just postulating another option that might be more simply explained... or even add to the aforementioned analysis.

 

[flying_hun]

I know all you guys can ride way better and faster than me, and the above analysis is very insightful, so please pardon this disruption with an BGO (that's blinding glimpse of the motherfucking obvious). That's a fairly tight, often dirty, blind turn. Often, oddly enough, with a cyclist on the outside.

OP, was there any point within, say, 100 feet of your turn-in point when you could have safely brought your bike to a stop within the distance you could see? Or to put it another way, at what point could you no longer stop safely within the distance you could see?

Vanishing point, try it.

 

[latindane]

Let me leave some of Code's words on trail braking, that I think are worth keeping in mind... I don't think our disagreement in this thread should be seen as "opposing views" but rather pointing at different things.

...
Here is an interview Misti Hurst did recently with Keith Code.
...
Keith: Every brake release should have some trailing off of lever pressure. Barring something like running off the road, there is no on-road or track cornering circumstance where an abrupt release of brake pressure is optimum.
...

Just like it is a bad idea to use the throttle as an on/off switch, it's a bad idea to use the brakes as an on/off switch (in either direction). So forget "trail braking"; do keep "smooth release" in mind.

I hope my posts have not been interpreted as advocating the practice of trail braking in the canyons. As Dylan said in that same thread,

latindane:

I would agree with you that this technique would be very helpful if overcooking a corner. I suppose we could say that many top racers are on the verge of overcooking most of the corners they approach.

I'd say that canyon riding with many linked corners, all about the same speed, would be a situation where one would be modulating speed with gentle throttle roll-on's and roll-off's, with some gentle touches on the brakes. If one were on the same road but accelerating very hard between turns, then we'd see more trail braking.

My riding season started late enough that it didn't make sense for me to reply to his post, but I got to confirm that he was spot on with what he wrote: riding twisty public roads, there is zero trail braking going on for me.

 

[afm199]

Google the technique and you will find many different theories as to why MotoGP riders do this, but " A quick touch down with a foot can provide that all important third contact point (like a flat tracker) that can save a lack of traction scenario." is surprisingly absent.

When it comes to this crash, it might be more productive to analyze the events preceding the crash. What took place seconds before the crash? Minutes?

Correct. Foot out and touch down with weight simply means the foot is now a third traction point and gets pulled backward instantly. It's not dirt.

 

[danate]

Enrique, I don't think we had a disagreement at all (if you are referring to me), just different interpretations of what the OP had said. Both of the techniques we described were accurate and are both appropriate when going in too hot for a turn.

That said, I pretty much always trail brake a little, more so when conditions are good (and obviously less when it's wet). I also agree on (light) use of the rear brake if needed to control corner speed.

 

[latindane]

I was referring to tzrider's comment about opposing views. Because you and me were picturing different scenarios, I had misunderstood your advice of cracking the throttle open to be around turn-in, which I disagreed with. But then I figured that was not what you meant.

 

[Archimedes]

Interesting read. My only comment is I don't see any way you would lose the front right at tip in if you were truly off the brakes (unless there was oil on the road). I don't care how fast you were going, there's too big a contact patch to lose the front totally off the brakes in that situation. My guess is things happened so fast that you don't really have a clear recollection of the events.

And I agree with the earlier poster that argued cracking the throttle open to get the bike to turn. When I blow a turn, I find being off the gas only makes me feel like I have less control of the motorcycle. Trail brake into the turn, look through, and open the throttle as soon as you have set lean angle. I think if you do that regardless of how hot you're into a turn, you have the best chance of making it through. If you can't make it through doing that, you weren't likely to make it through doing anything else.

 

[latindane]

Interesting read. My only comment is I don't see any way you would lose the front right at tip in if you were truly off the brakes (unless there was oil on the road). I don't care how fast you were going, there's too big a contact patch to lose the front totally off the brakes in that situation. My guess is things happened so fast that you don't really have a clear recollection of the events.

And I agree with the earlier poster that argued cracking the throttle open to get the bike to turn. When I blow a turn, I find being off the gas only makes me feel like I have less control of the motorcycle. Trail brake into the turn, look through, and open the throttle as soon as you have set lean angle. I think if you do that regardless of how hot you're into a turn, you have the best chance of making it through. If you can't make it through doing that, you weren't likely to make it through doing anything else.

He didn't say right at tip-in, just very soon into the turn:

Latindane, I did release the brakes pretty abruptly. I had no brake pressure applied when I entered the turn. I came into the left from the outside 1/3 or so of the lane and lost the front very soon into the turn.

Danate, I had the throttle closed when I entered from the outside. I believe it remained closed as I went down. I keep a flat wrist on my throttle grip to prevent those accidental flicks. I was not braking once I leaned in. I had fully released the brakes prior to the entry (maybe too abruptly, as Latindane had suggested). Another thought is that my body wasn't positioned ideally for the tight left. My bodyweight was more centered than I think it should have been. I didn't give myself enough time to shift left as I should have.

After discussing with tzrider offline, I'm pretty convinced now also that the abrupt release of the brakes must have been accompanied by other factors. Josh does mention "not ideal" body position, and both stiffening up on the bars and subconsciously "giving up on it" as mentioned above would add to the trouble.
and +1 on what you write in the second paragraph. I've also made the mistake of coasting when feeling like I'm too hot in a turn and it feels iffy (plus it doesn't help ground clearance, as my toe guard can attest to).