firstbuell
GO! 04,16,23,31,64,69,95
I've been drooling for 1 if those tables since seeing the Graves setup @ Sears Point AMA Pro
what brand do you have? cost?
would you recommend yours?
All for Racing - CBR Build/Crash/Rebuild
- Thread starter stangmx13
- Start date
I've been drooling for 1 if those tables since seeing the Graves setup @ Sears Point AMA Pro
what brand do you have? cost?
would you recommend yours?
stangmx13
not Stan
oh man, i rly could have used that folding table last night. essentially sat on the ground for 3hrs drilling and safety wiring.
i really dont know exactly what the damping change will be. making the stack 3x stiffer wont produce 3x the damping. but rly, my change to the stack stiffness is essentially an educated guess. ive based it off of what kinda worked on my old bike, how the new bike felt in stock form, what info my tuner has offered me, what i can find on the internet from reputable sources/tuners, and other "better" shim stacks from Ohlins.
for example, w/ my old bike, the compression valve had the same port sizes as what Ohlins sells in the FPK kits, so their shim stack was a good starting pt. it was 12x stiffer than the OE one. i made a stack that was about 10x stiffer than the OE one and used the mid-valve (back side of the rebound valve) to generate some more compression damping. the new bike is a little more difficult because the compression valve is dramatically different... big holes vs small holes.
it was actually pretty ez to feel on the new bike that there was not enough high speed damping. with the low speed compression adjuster screw all the way in, the forks felt wooden when pitching forward from braking, but the second u hit a bump, the forks would blow through their stroke.
but ya, ill be using the OE valves and replacing only shims. im also going to disable the hydraulic lock to gain 20+mm of useful travel. bottoming can easily be controlled by damping and air gap, no use for a hydraulic lock in racing.
i really dont know exactly what the damping change will be. making the stack 3x stiffer wont produce 3x the damping. but rly, my change to the stack stiffness is essentially an educated guess. ive based it off of what kinda worked on my old bike, how the new bike felt in stock form, what info my tuner has offered me, what i can find on the internet from reputable sources/tuners, and other "better" shim stacks from Ohlins.
for example, w/ my old bike, the compression valve had the same port sizes as what Ohlins sells in the FPK kits, so their shim stack was a good starting pt. it was 12x stiffer than the OE one. i made a stack that was about 10x stiffer than the OE one and used the mid-valve (back side of the rebound valve) to generate some more compression damping. the new bike is a little more difficult because the compression valve is dramatically different... big holes vs small holes.
it was actually pretty ez to feel on the new bike that there was not enough high speed damping. with the low speed compression adjuster screw all the way in, the forks felt wooden when pitching forward from braking, but the second u hit a bump, the forks would blow through their stroke.
but ya, ill be using the OE valves and replacing only shims. im also going to disable the hydraulic lock to gain 20+mm of useful travel. bottoming can easily be controlled by damping and air gap, no use for a hydraulic lock in racing.
stangmx13
not Stan
Friday morning... not much time left. would u say im cutting it close? 
simple bolt-on
less simple bolt-on. always a pain getting a stator cover off without prying the seal edge. theres a big casting tab on the left of the stock cover that i pried with my tire lever after pounding on the cover w/ a deadblow hammer to break the seal.
the rebound valve
those 2 little grooves in the rod are where the hydraulic lock was clipped and peened on. it actually wasnt that difficult to remove it... w/ my dremel and a cutting wheel. thankfully, i didnt mar the rod. even if i had, that part of the rod never makes it into the tube.
everything on the left of the valve is the rebound stack. ive removed that little tiny shim to stiffen it up considerably. anyone know why removing THAT shim would stiffen the stack, where as normally ud ADD shims to stiffen? i also replaced the 2 largest shims of the rebound stack w/ 1 thicker one, also stiffening the stack a bit. one .15 thickness shim is actually stiffer than two .1 shims
all the shim on the right side of the valve is commonly called a midvalve. it generates compression damping in the way most people think shocks make compression, by moving through the oil. (obviously, the compression/base valve doesnt move through the oil, so how does it produce damping... something to ponder). supposedly, if u produce more than 50% of your compression damping here, the fork will cavitate. the holes in valve for this are huge and there are 4 of them, so i felt comfortable going stiffer. removing the tiny shim prob produced almost all of the stiffness change.
here are the stacks:
No code has to be inserted here.
once my fork springs come in around 1pm, ill assemble the forks and front end, throw on the bodywork, and load the bike. thankfully, AutoClub is the closest track to me, so leaving at 9pm still gets me there pretty early. hopefully it wont take me that long to put everything back together.
simple bolt-on
less simple bolt-on. always a pain getting a stator cover off without prying the seal edge. theres a big casting tab on the left of the stock cover that i pried with my tire lever after pounding on the cover w/ a deadblow hammer to break the seal.
the rebound valve
those 2 little grooves in the rod are where the hydraulic lock was clipped and peened on. it actually wasnt that difficult to remove it... w/ my dremel and a cutting wheel. thankfully, i didnt mar the rod. even if i had, that part of the rod never makes it into the tube.
everything on the left of the valve is the rebound stack. ive removed that little tiny shim to stiffen it up considerably. anyone know why removing THAT shim would stiffen the stack, where as normally ud ADD shims to stiffen? i also replaced the 2 largest shims of the rebound stack w/ 1 thicker one, also stiffening the stack a bit. one .15 thickness shim is actually stiffer than two .1 shims
all the shim on the right side of the valve is commonly called a midvalve. it generates compression damping in the way most people think shocks make compression, by moving through the oil. (obviously, the compression/base valve doesnt move through the oil, so how does it produce damping... something to ponder). supposedly, if u produce more than 50% of your compression damping here, the fork will cavitate. the holes in valve for this are huge and there are 4 of them, so i felt comfortable going stiffer. removing the tiny shim prob produced almost all of the stiffness change.
here are the stacks:
No code has to be inserted here.
once my fork springs come in around 1pm, ill assemble the forks and front end, throw on the bodywork, and load the bike. thankfully, AutoClub is the closest track to me, so leaving at 9pm still gets me there pretty early. hopefully it wont take me that long to put everything back together.
stangmx13
not Stan
:laughing @ sad face
ya, you correct that i cant say categorically that adding shims makes a stack stiffer, esp since i just told everyone i removed one and the stack is stiffer hehe. adding shims to the face of the valve or below (closer to the face) will always make a stack stiffer, but ya.
pretty close as to why the stack is less stiff w/ that shim.
the space that shims can move only really affects damping at really high shaft speeds (if we are talking about the entire stack, and we dont have any gap shims or two-stage stuff), maybe a huge pothole on the freeway. i bet, with this valve, the ports will choke before the shims are limited. so rly, the stack would be practically the same if there were three 8.2's behind it.
however, whats more important than that is the fact that the smallest shim represents the radius that all the other shims must bend around. i like to call that shim a "clamp" shim. w/ that small shim, the 17 shims have 8.8mm to bend (17-8.2). by removing it, now all the shims must bend around the 12mm shim, so only 5mm can bend. in simple beam-bending concepts, a shorter beam is stiffer... less displacement for a given force.
stangmx13
not Stan
well, it sure was an interesting weekend....
i managed to finish putting the bike back together around 430pm Friday. printed some shitty numbers at Kinkos, loaded, packed everything for the weekend, went to Rubios for dinner, and left San Diego a little before 9pm. i still had a few things to do Saturday night before racing on Sunday, but the bike was perfectly capable of a trackday. popped a tent and went to bed around 1130... earliest ive been not working on the bike and into bed all week.
Saturday's trackday was challenging. overnight temps were high 20s/low 30s and 7am wasnt much warmer. i got a new rear tire mounted and still went out for the first freezing cold session. right away, i could feel that this bike/suspension was going to be interesting to dial-in. i turned a few painfully slow laptimes, finding my lines, and figuring out what i needed to change. my personal best around Autoclub is a 1:40.3, first session had me at 1:51 :laughing
Session 2 was a bit warmer and i started to find some rhythm turning some 1:47s. with the extra speed, esp into turn 1, 3, 5, and 12, i was getting a gnarly amount of brake fade. so i skipped Session 3 to install the Vesrah SRJL pads that i had brought. went out for Session 4 and the brakes felt better and saw 1:45s, so i decided to start rly focusing on suspension.
for Session 5, i made a small fork rebound change and a small shock compression change.... and then i went down in turn 8. ya, all that work for the past 2 weeks and i threw the bike away. turns 7->8 is a left/right transition, i transitioned to the right and the front never loaded, just slid. my lean angle wasnt excessive, my corner speed was kinda low... most likely i held too much pressure on the inside bar after the transition (stupid) and i asked too much of my front tire for the cold track. :facepalm to myself
unfortunately, i wasnt able to ride the bike back into the pits as the throttle was stuck and the bars wouldnt turn left. heres a list of the crash damage:
- destroyed OE fairing stay, into about 6 pieces
- burned through right side of fairings a lot
- right Woodcraft case-cover scratched but did its job
- right footpeg ground down about 1"
- left footpeg bent forward at 30deg
- throttle tube destroyed
- ripped out left swingarm spool
- bent brake lever
thankfully, my helmet wasnt scratched and i didnt burn through my leathers (cept a tiny rip on top of my right shoulder), so as long as i could fix the bike....
the rest of Saturday was spent in the garage, until about 1:30am. one of my pit-buddies Moises had crashed the day before on his CBR, so he had already sourced a bunch of parts (had to pick em up at his home 35min away). paid him $100 for a new OE fairing stay and an HRC throttle tube. he haggled pretty well to get me that price. i had to dremel the stock throttle housing a tiny bit to get the tube to work, but its nice to have a 1/5 turn now instead of the stock 1/4 turn. fixed all that, drilled my caliper bolts for safety wire, installed my frame sliders, bent the left footpeg back, remounted all the bodywork... and this is what im left with. it looks much worse in person actually.
lets just say that Sunday went quite a bit better...
i started off the morning by getting a new front mounted @ 7am, wiring what was left, and passing tech. i skipped P1 to make a huge suspension change that i would have done the day b4... lowered the forks to 4mm BELOW the triple clamp and made some damping changes to the front end based on how it felt b4 i crashed. P2 was still slow but the bike was better everywhere. by P4 i was feeling much better and back down to 1:42.0. these changes solved most of the front end issues, much less headshake out of 1, 6, or 13, more stable under braking for 3, 5, & 11, more confident into 1, and slightly better on the gas out of 4, 6, & 16/17. a few other shock changes and less tire pressure improved rear grip as well as entry stability. confidence improving
i ended up being in the first race of the day, race 2A. about first call, i noticed that my brake lever was bent a bit and proceeded to try to unbend it slightly. complete brain fart... OE brake levers dont bend twice... so it snapped off. the next 5min was mad w/ 5 guys on my bike throwing on a replacement and getting me on the grid. didnt get a warm-up lap, but i made it. i got an ok start but lost prob 10 positions by turn 3 because i wasnt pushing. by the end of the race, i ended 24th out of 26 @ 1:40.7. happy cuz i actually found some speed.
race 5 and 12A went quite a bit smoother. 5 was crazy into the first real turn, #3, as one guy barreled uncontrollably across the line. thankfully he didnt hit anyone. ended the race 15th out of 19 @ 1:40.5 and only got beat by 1 novice, my buddy Luis that managed to drop 3sec switching from an 848 to an R6.... now hes just sand-bagging Novice :laughing. race 12A ended 16th of 19 @ 1:40.3. i thought about pushing harder after lap 3, but my setup isnt great yet so i just brought the bike home. i pretty much blew turn 3 every lap of race 12A, so that something to work on next Sept. also, the bike freakin' wheelies EVERYWHERE and its hurting my laptimes, i need to fix that.
heres some pics at the end of the day.
good side
not good side
overall, i was really happy w/ how my first 3 Expert races went. i didnt get last, i got to race with a few guys, and i made it back down to my best laptimes from the old bike. there isn't one single corner on that track where i cant carry more speed, so ill be pushing for better laptimes come September.
so notice in the pic above (after all the racing), that ive got a new front tire on. after my last race, i parked the bike there and popped it on stands. then, i noticed HUGE cracks in a 9" section of rubber on the tire. im not talking 1 or 2 cracks, there were prob 10 total. :wow WTF!!! took the bike over the Dunlop and Bru confirmed the cracking was prob due to the sub-freezing temps the night before and the prob formed during practice, running all day like that!!! well, im still alive AND i got a new front tire
obviously, this thread is going to continue since the bike aint done yet. new/better parts are prob coming and ive got a lot of fiberglass and paint work to do. ill prob change the thread title too. but for now, im taking a few days break from the garage :laughing.
i managed to finish putting the bike back together around 430pm Friday. printed some shitty numbers at Kinkos, loaded, packed everything for the weekend, went to Rubios for dinner, and left San Diego a little before 9pm. i still had a few things to do Saturday night before racing on Sunday, but the bike was perfectly capable of a trackday. popped a tent and went to bed around 1130... earliest ive been not working on the bike and into bed all week.
Saturday's trackday was challenging. overnight temps were high 20s/low 30s and 7am wasnt much warmer. i got a new rear tire mounted and still went out for the first freezing cold session. right away, i could feel that this bike/suspension was going to be interesting to dial-in. i turned a few painfully slow laptimes, finding my lines, and figuring out what i needed to change. my personal best around Autoclub is a 1:40.3, first session had me at 1:51 :laughing
Session 2 was a bit warmer and i started to find some rhythm turning some 1:47s. with the extra speed, esp into turn 1, 3, 5, and 12, i was getting a gnarly amount of brake fade. so i skipped Session 3 to install the Vesrah SRJL pads that i had brought. went out for Session 4 and the brakes felt better and saw 1:45s, so i decided to start rly focusing on suspension.
for Session 5, i made a small fork rebound change and a small shock compression change.... and then i went down in turn 8
. ya, all that work for the past 2 weeks and i threw the bike away. turns 7->8 is a left/right transition, i transitioned to the right and the front never loaded, just slid. my lean angle wasnt excessive, my corner speed was kinda low... most likely i held too much pressure on the inside bar after the transition (stupid) and i asked too much of my front tire for the cold track. :facepalm to myselfunfortunately, i wasnt able to ride the bike back into the pits as the throttle was stuck and the bars wouldnt turn left. heres a list of the crash damage:
- destroyed OE fairing stay, into about 6 pieces
- burned through right side of fairings a lot
- right Woodcraft case-cover scratched but did its job
- right footpeg ground down about 1"
- left footpeg bent forward at 30deg
- throttle tube destroyed
- ripped out left swingarm spool
- bent brake lever
thankfully, my helmet wasnt scratched and i didnt burn through my leathers (cept a tiny rip on top of my right shoulder), so as long as i could fix the bike....
the rest of Saturday was spent in the garage, until about 1:30am. one of my pit-buddies Moises had crashed the day before on his CBR, so he had already sourced a bunch of parts (had to pick em up at his home 35min away). paid him $100 for a new OE fairing stay and an HRC throttle tube. he haggled pretty well to get me that price
. i had to dremel the stock throttle housing a tiny bit to get the tube to work, but its nice to have a 1/5 turn now instead of the stock 1/4 turn. fixed all that, drilled my caliper bolts for safety wire, installed my frame sliders, bent the left footpeg back, remounted all the bodywork... and this is what im left with. it looks much worse in person actually.
lets just say that Sunday went quite a bit better...
i started off the morning by getting a new front mounted @ 7am, wiring what was left, and passing tech. i skipped P1 to make a huge suspension change that i would have done the day b4... lowered the forks to 4mm BELOW the triple clamp and made some damping changes to the front end based on how it felt b4 i crashed. P2 was still slow but the bike was better everywhere. by P4 i was feeling much better and back down to 1:42.0. these changes solved most of the front end issues, much less headshake out of 1, 6, or 13, more stable under braking for 3, 5, & 11, more confident into 1, and slightly better on the gas out of 4, 6, & 16/17. a few other shock changes and less tire pressure improved rear grip as well as entry stability. confidence improving
i ended up being in the first race of the day, race 2A. about first call, i noticed that my brake lever was bent a bit and proceeded to try to unbend it slightly. complete brain fart... OE brake levers dont bend twice... so it snapped off. the next 5min was mad w/ 5 guys on my bike throwing on a replacement and getting me on the grid. didnt get a warm-up lap, but i made it. i got an ok start but lost prob 10 positions by turn 3 because i wasnt pushing. by the end of the race, i ended 24th out of 26 @ 1:40.7. happy cuz i actually found some speed.
race 5 and 12A went quite a bit smoother. 5 was crazy into the first real turn, #3, as one guy barreled uncontrollably across the line. thankfully he didnt hit anyone. ended the race 15th out of 19 @ 1:40.5 and only got beat by 1 novice, my buddy Luis that managed to drop 3sec switching from an 848 to an R6.... now hes just sand-bagging Novice :laughing. race 12A ended 16th of 19 @ 1:40.3. i thought about pushing harder after lap 3, but my setup isnt great yet so i just brought the bike home. i pretty much blew turn 3 every lap of race 12A, so that something to work on next Sept. also, the bike freakin' wheelies EVERYWHERE and its hurting my laptimes, i need to fix that.
heres some pics at the end of the day.
good side
not good side
overall, i was really happy w/ how my first 3 Expert races went. i didnt get last, i got to race with a few guys, and i made it back down to my best laptimes from the old bike. there isn't one single corner on that track where i cant carry more speed, so ill be pushing for better laptimes come September.
so notice in the pic above (after all the racing), that ive got a new front tire on. after my last race, i parked the bike there and popped it on stands. then, i noticed HUGE cracks in a 9" section of rubber on the tire. im not talking 1 or 2 cracks, there were prob 10 total. :wow WTF!!! took the bike over the Dunlop and Bru confirmed the cracking was prob due to the sub-freezing temps the night before and the prob formed during practice, running all day like that!!! well, im still alive AND i got a new front tire
obviously, this thread is going to continue since the bike aint done yet. new/better parts are prob coming and ive got a lot of fiberglass and paint work to do. ill prob change the thread title too. but for now, im taking a few days break from the garage :laughing.
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Congrats on finishing your expert races... and not DFL. I looked for you in practice on Saturday. Did you end up in Racer A or Racer B? I was initially in Racer A, but asked for Racer B before going out. My practice times were right on the cusp and I didn't want to get in the way of the SUPER fast guys out there. So much of that track is only 1 line thru.
stangmx13
not Stan
i was in racer B. same thing, was signed up for A but i knew my laptimes werent going to be up to snuff, so i went into B.
moving over to your thread
stangmx13
not Stan
i hate sanding
well, its been a few weeks since ive posted an update. but of course, its got a little over a week left and there is still plenty to do.
i rly only wanted to accomplish a few things in my short break between round 1 and two...
- bodywork repairs & paint
- replace a few parts for durability
- fork rebound re-valve
- buy a generator
so, heres whats come of the body work...
some of the damage
smoothing it all out
ull notice ive got a nice new speedhole around the engine case cover. the Woodcraft cover did its job, and may do its job again, so i just cleaned up the hole and it dont look half bad. the fiberglass covering the case cover on the other side warped from heat and that was challenging to fix. i think it may have warped from boiling hot radiator water, but im not sure. ill need to get some insulation on the back side before the next round. my repair looks ok.
im a lot better at Bondo work now than when i started. i think there are only 2 skills necessary for using filler properly.... applying a layer thats just thick enough without holes and knowing when to stop sanding. once u get those 2 down, everything goes really smooth (pun intended). did i mention that i hate sanding?
ive got all my primers ready and am going to spray etching primer today. hopefully clear will go on Monday or Tuesday. more on that later.
onto durability fixes....
so which one of these would explode into 6 pieces from a lowside crash? silly Honda making a shitty plastic piece, and shame on them for selling it for almost the same price as the Motoholders one.
Durable parts
Motoholders fairing stay and CRG levers. i found the shorty brake in the CRG Clearance section, so that saved me like 50%, and i really like the silver color so i got a folding clutch to match. No more broken levers for me.
as for the rest of my tasks....
ive been through my forks once, so a rebound revalve should take me about 90min total. it helps that i bought a fork-spring compressor from RaceTech, so that should go smoothly. And, i ordered my generator yesterday and itll be here Tuesday, got the Honda EU2000.
well, its been a few weeks since ive posted an update. but of course, its got a little over a week left and there is still plenty to do.
i rly only wanted to accomplish a few things in my short break between round 1 and two...
- bodywork repairs & paint
- replace a few parts for durability
- fork rebound re-valve
- buy a generator
so, heres whats come of the body work...
some of the damage
smoothing it all out
ull notice ive got a nice new speedhole around the engine case cover. the Woodcraft cover did its job, and may do its job again, so i just cleaned up the hole and it dont look half bad. the fiberglass covering the case cover on the other side warped from heat and that was challenging to fix. i think it may have warped from boiling hot radiator water, but im not sure. ill need to get some insulation on the back side before the next round. my repair looks ok.
im a lot better at Bondo work now than when i started. i think there are only 2 skills necessary for using filler properly.... applying a layer thats just thick enough without holes and knowing when to stop sanding. once u get those 2 down, everything goes really smooth (pun intended). did i mention that i hate sanding?
ive got all my primers ready and am going to spray etching primer today. hopefully clear will go on Monday or Tuesday. more on that later.
onto durability fixes....
so which one of these would explode into 6 pieces from a lowside crash? silly Honda making a shitty plastic piece, and shame on them for selling it for almost the same price as the Motoholders one.
Durable parts
Motoholders fairing stay and CRG levers. i found the shorty brake in the CRG Clearance section, so that saved me like 50%, and i really like the silver color so i got a folding clutch to match. No more broken levers for me.
as for the rest of my tasks....
ive been through my forks once, so a rebound revalve should take me about 90min total. it helps that i bought a fork-spring compressor from RaceTech, so that should go smoothly. And, i ordered my generator yesterday and itll be here Tuesday, got the Honda EU2000.
stangmx13
not Stan
thnx for the kind words guys. just cuz u two posted ill slot this photo in here
this paint is BRIGHT and its awesome! however, its fragile as hell... i think some of my masking tape is going to remove some gloss from the silver thats under it. oh wells, u live and u learn. maybe the pro 2K clear i bought will make it pretty again.
more pics prob later tonight w/ the masking removed.
this paint is BRIGHT and its awesome! however, its fragile as hell... i think some of my masking tape is going to remove some gloss from the silver thats under it
. oh wells, u live and u learn. maybe the pro 2K clear i bought will make it pretty again. more pics prob later tonight w/ the masking removed
.