Can somebody fill me in?

[FourThreeSix]

I've seen it on both sides. The danger is there, whether we'd like to acknowledge it or not. I've been buzzed pretty hard going into T1 at T-Hill on the 300 and I've also come up on some unpredictable smaller bike folks on the 600. I don't think there's any way to get around it. Just because you might have the skills to navigate A at a good clip doesn't mean the next person on the 600/1000 does. Self preservation says maybe I'll take a hit to the ego and drop to B if I know shit is sketchy in A.

 

[cg_ops]

So let me get this straight.... assuming the only 300 riders in A group are the people that truly know what they're doing, some of you'd still rather them be limited to B group? So, in B group we now have fresh-out-C-group riders and ready-for-A-group riders. Regardless of bike size. So your barely-better-than-C rider on a 1000 isn't a danger to himself or other riders but the 600/1000 riders in A group are in danger when riding with A-group 300 riders?

If you can't gauge a small bike in front of you in A group, adjust accordingly, and ride around them.... maybe you shouldn't be in A group. If your eyes are open and forward you can see the speed differential. At what track is the braking zone at the end of a straight so narrow that you can't go around the little bike 2, 3 even 4-wide? Corner entry speed isn't going to be much different if you're a good 600/1000 rider.

Speed differential doesn't go away by the bikes being in B.... if skill isn't the issue then, logically it seems to make more sense if there were 5 groups.... C, Small-B, Big-B, Small-A, Big-A. But that's not feasible when there's so few hours in the track day

 

[edzx6]

So let me get this straight.... assuming the only 300 riders in A group are the people that truly know what they're doing, some of you'd still rather them be limited to B group? So, in B group we now have fresh-out-C-group riders and ready-for-A-group riders. Regardless of bike size. So your barely-better-than-C rider on a 1000 isn't a danger to himself or other riders but the 600/1000 riders in A group are in danger when riding with A-group 300 riders?

If you can't gauge a small bike in front of you in A group, adjust accordingly, and ride around them.... maybe you shouldn't be in A group. If your eyes are open and forward you can see the speed differential. At what track is the braking zone at the end of a straight so narrow that you can't go around the little bike 2, 3 even 4-wide? Corner entry speed isn't going to be much different if you're a good 600/1000 rider.

Speed differential doesn't go away by the bikes being in B.... if skill isn't the issue then, logically it seems to make more sense if there were 5 groups.... C, Small-B, Big-B, Small-A, Big-A. But that's not feasible when there's so few hours in the track day

I agree with this assessment. I am an A rider who has ridden in B lately because I have been riding the 250 a lot and sorting out a FZR400 that was just put together. I didn't want to disrupt the A group with the 250 and the possibility that the 400 would need tweeking and not work properly. I am riding in B the 20th but I think that will be the last time I do that. The last couple of time I have seen some sketchy stuff out there. Mostly, I have noticed that when the B riders on the 1000's pass under power and park it in the corners, they have a tendency to come around then cut right back in front of you and chop the throttle or brake excessively, putting you in a WTF??? moment.

B riders, if you are going for the pass, make the pass, hold your line and get on with your corner. Stop this coming around smaller bikes under power and moving in front of them only to brake immediately so you can make the corner. You are about to get ass packed by a 250. This isn't the street and a double yellow line, you can pass someone and not have to get back in the lane you perceive you are in.

 

[edzx6]

I'll be in B the 20th because it's an AFM Friday and there will be a lot of really fast big bikes in A. B on the AFM Friday is faster than normal B as well.

Agreed, the 20th was special. Any other day SVJ and I discussed and we are going back to A.

 

[KazMan]

Don't mind us, just going slow. :ride
https://youtu.be/m0jMoUYK62Q?t=733

So I have resisted chiming in on this thread as a small bike and middleweight bike rider, however, this video is good to show many things about A group and smaller bikes. However Kalen, since you posted this video, I will just use this as I believe there are some good visual learning points for all in A group and is relevant to this thread.

Some of the difficulties are represented well at around 6:30 in the video. You have a small bike riding well but for half the track, bikes begin backing up on each other. Not the small bikes fault, but a reality that occurs with every session. The problem then becomes prevalent within the trailing bikes as to who will take the first shot and where. Then it becomes how will the small bike react and where will the trailing riders go, or be forced to go. Good decisions are needed by all until the traffic jam is cleared up.

The next scenario is presented at around 11:55 when 2 smaller bikes or friends are riding around together, worse when it's the latter scenario as the 2 typically forget there are others track.

If we all agree that about 2/3's of the track width is usable for most of the track, when 2 people are riding around together and are just pulling up next to each other for fun or to look at each other, the 2 riders need to keep in mind that on corner entry and exit, they have now just taken up the 2/3's of available track.

The pass on the straight shows rider(s?) looking at each other while a bike now passes on the blind side against the wall with a substantially high delta, and one could assume this was their only option as the other bikes were side by side with a seemingly large gap in between the two but not enough to allow a pass in between which would probably be considered an asshole pass.

This is compounded when there is no intent to pass but to merely just ride side by side. The problem in A group is someone who could have as high as say a 50mph delta, has just had their options cut down drastically. So in my opinion and something I try to do every time I decide to ride my R3 in A group, it is critical that when small bikes are out and especially riding in groups, the intent to pass should be the strategy any time you swing out, or just stay in line until you have a better opportunity. Side by sides just because are a potential for bad things to happen behind.

I believe it's very difficult for all the providers to accommodate this issue as you typically, but not always, have pretty high caliber riders on small bikes who understand lines and typically stay on them as that's the only way to carry speed. Versus the large displacement riders who may have good pace because of the ability to throttle down the straights, but may be lacking in carrying corner speed. And the difficulty for the track day provider is to accommodate both ends of the spectrum to ensure both are having a good time.

In the end, we all should understand our strengths and weaknesses, as well as be honest with our lap times, capabilities, and egos. As cg-ops stated earlier, "can't we all get along?"

Again a reminder, this is no knock on Kalen, only that she provided a good video for this thread. Having done a couple of track days myself, I can tell you I have seen far more worse examples up to and including 2 riders slowing to around 30mph between 2 and 3 at Thill so they could talk to each other. But we should all be diligent in considering each others safety while enjoying a hobby we all love!

Humbly submitted by an old guy who rides an R3 and R6 and just try's to keep out of the way and successfully make it back to the pits each and every time out.

 

[cg_ops]

I'm glad people on big bikes in B don't go WOT and are predictable.

That's my point too... "300's don't belong in A group, for safety" makes no sense if there's still 600/1000's in B group.

If it's a safety issue in A group where the most skilled/experienced riders are, it follows that it's an even bigger danger in B group with the same bikes but less skilled (overall) riders.

In earnest, if I'm wrong, what am I missing? Why are 300's less hazardous in B group when compared to 600/1000's? The argument should be to move to big/small bike groups instead of skill groups if that's the case.

That said, I can understand big-bike A-group riders disliking being "inconvenienced" in A-group by 250/300's while they're chasing laptimes. Just not from a safety standpoint while ignoring the issue still exists in B-group.

 

[FourThreeSix]

That's my point too... "300's don't belong in A group, for safety" makes no sense if there's still 600/1000's in B group.

If it's a safety issue in A group where the most skilled/experienced riders are, it follows that it's an even bigger danger in B group with the same bikes but less skilled (overall) riders.

In earnest, if I'm wrong, what am I missing? Why are 300's less hazardous in B group when compared to 600/1000's? The argument should be to move to big/small bike groups instead of skill groups if that's the case.

That said, I can understand big-bike A-group riders disliking being "inconvenienced" in A-group by 250/300's while they're chasing laptimes. Just not from a safety standpoint while ignoring the issue still exists in B-group.

I think out of this entire conversation, there's only two people advocating that small bikes should stay out of A group. If it was a big enough issue, the track day providers would have separate groups based on displacement. Obviously, it's not a big enough issue.

The part that gets me is that there's this expectation that A group is filled with the best, most-skilled riders at any given event that day and that B is filled with a bunch of lost souls that can't swallow their pride that they are true C riders or that they are afraid to move up to A. Fact is, while some of this may be true, A also has their bad apples, and B has their good ones.

I understand the annoyance in riding with unpredictable folks in A or B group on a small bike. I just wouldn't put all your faith in other riders when coming up with the conclusion that A is a safe group for small bikes. It can be and it also can't be. For Rocco and Marc and the rest of the field at the sharp end, absolutely no problem. But there's a big difference between a fast 600/1000 rider coming up on them doing 56's and the tail end of the group doing 2:15's. If it wasn't an issue, in addition to track days, we'd all be racing with each other too.

 

[cg_ops]

The part that gets me is that there's this expectation that A group is filled with the best, most-skilled riders at any given event that day and that B is filled with a bunch of lost souls that can't swallow their pride that they are true C riders or that they are afraid to move up to A. Fact is, while some of this may be true, A also has their bad apples, and B has their good ones.

I think we're splitting hairs at this point. :laughing Aside from the conversation veering off from the topic of the post, in order for any debate/dialogue to be had, assumptions are required. Expectation and assumptions are not the same thing.

It's logical to assume, generally, A-group riders are more skilled than B group
It's irrational to expect every A-group rider to be predictable or have a base skill level in all areas

It's a fun/friendly conversation topic that I've seen covered in various forum platforms, with opinions strongly held on both sides of the coin. I'd wager a "right" answer doesn't exist. However, by having these kinds of dialogues it broadens ALL of our viewpoints by providing insight that we might not have considered previously, such as KazMan's point about a pair of riders side by side for more than a moment - in such a case the potential for collision is considerably higher by a passing rider.

 

[inthewoods]

side by side wishing it could be a selfie.

 

[dtrides]

Question:
should it be skill or lap times that determine which group I ride in?
I am on a SV650 and now doing 2:11's on race day. I am relatively new to racing, but not riding.
Yes, even the 600's can smoke me on the front straight at TH....but I might be better in the corners and if I get around them in 2 or 3 I usually dont see them again.
Friends have been encouraging me to move to A because less a** hats and they think it would be safer.
Thoughts?
DT

 

[Gavin Botha]

Clearly the point is being missed and too many defensive reactions. Fact is there are huge differences between the big bikes and small bikes. Acceleration and top speed are not in the same ball park, and deceleration and corner speed on a small bike is much better due to half the weight and fraction of rotational mass. What does that mean? small bikes and big bikes will get in each others way! If it was just an inconvenience each side could continue to complain about how the other holds them up, and it would just be BARF entertainment, but it is more than an inconvenience, it is dangerous. In many circumstances it is flat out impossible to accurately predict exactly where a pass will take place when the differences combined with rider variables are stacked up, and planning has to take place 100yards ahead. For 95% of the time the bigger bikes can blow by safely as seen in the video. The problem comes when the pass does not happen as anticipated, usually when the advantage going from the big bike to the little bike, and both bikes intersect at the apex. Done it myself and seen many others do it too. If you don't understand this you have not experienced riding a bike bike fast.

We all must get along, and clearly there are all types of preferences on the track, so we should figure it out. Not to pick on Kalen, but since you posted the video, how do you feel the big bike riders felt when they saw you in front of them, and likely had to make major adjustments. We all try to be courteous, and as Kazman pointed out, it was clear that bikes were stacking up behind you waiting for a courteous place to pass. That in itself can be hazardous. You probably dont think about those impacts being the slow rider in A group, but go ride in C group for a while and you will understand.

I have raced in several race organizations where the groups are based on displacement, not lap times. Not saying that is better, but does eliminate this issue. Unfortunately we dont have enough riders for the ultimate solution which would be separate track days for big and small bikes, and no one wants a forth group because that will take away track time. I personally would like to see lap times for each group changed and enforced. A 2.00 min cut off for A group Thill would be a good start. Would be a motivator for more people to pick up the pace.

Also humbly submitted by another old guy who's primary objective is to make it back to the pits safely, and occasionally enjoy an unobstructed fast lap or 2

 

[dtrides]

A 2.00 min cut off for A group Thill would be a good start. Would be a motivator for more people to pick up the pace.

Cool, 2:15 cut off for B group?

 

[KazMan]

Gavin,just so it's clear. Kalen was the one running the camera.

Also, we all need to remember it's a track day, not an AFM practice as much as many would like it to be understood that way. Personally if I want some clear laps, I make sure I'm the first one to pre-grid. If not, then I understand that I will probably not get a good clean lap.

As I tell folks I work with, never count on a clean lap and because of that, think of the track in sections and when a section is clear, work on that one at speed.

I also tell them they should be seeing traffic several corners in advance and plan accordingly for a pass. Sometimes that means slowing down to let that person make a corner and then pass on the way out rather than getting stuck in intersecting apexes. It still happens, but in my opinion, that's on the passer.

That said, I used to be a firm believer in lap times mean something. Now I just keep my yap shut because I tend to offend some when I say the stop watch only speaks in truths. :laughing

 

[Gavin Botha]

Kalen video looked great, excellent smooth riding and very consistent. I can see why she will be a racing threat soon! Hopefully I am not offending anyone. Like you I typically avoid controversial subjects, but felt the need to weigh in here because I see a concern and attitudes building on both sides. There needs to be awareness!

Small bikes are growing in popularity and that is good for our sport, so we must all get along on the track! I think it is important that everyone respect the cut-off times, and I think small bike riders need to be aware that more often than they would like to think, there is a fast rider behind them having to make drastic changes to slow down and wait for a courteous place to pass. If you see that happening a lot, the polite thing to do is drop down to the appropriate group.

 

[sckego]

Clearly the point is being missed and too many defensive reactions. Fact is there are huge differences between the big bikes and small bikes. Acceleration and top speed are not in the same ball park, and deceleration and corner speed on a small bike is much better due to half the weight and fraction of rotational mass. What does that mean? small bikes and big bikes will get in each others way! If it was just an inconvenience each side could continue to complain about how the other holds them up, and it would just be BARF entertainment, but it is more than an inconvenience, it is dangerous. In many circumstances it is flat out impossible to accurately predict exactly where a pass will take place when the differences combined with rider variables are stacked up, and planning has to take place 100yards ahead. For 95% of the time the bigger bikes can blow by safely as seen in the video. The problem comes when the pass does not happen as anticipated, usually when the advantage going from the big bike to the little bike, and both bikes intersect at the apex. Done it myself and seen many others do it too. If you don't understand this you have not experienced riding a bike bike fast.

We all must get along, and clearly there are all types of preferences on the track, so we should figure it out. Not to pick on Kalen, but since you posted the video, how do you feel the big bike riders felt when they saw you in front of them, and likely had to make major adjustments. We all try to be courteous, and as Kazman pointed out, it was clear that bikes were stacking up behind you waiting for a courteous place to pass. That in itself can be hazardous. You probably dont think about those impacts being the slow rider in A group, but go ride in C group for a while and you will understand.

I have raced in several race organizations where the groups are based on displacement, not lap times. Not saying that is better, but does eliminate this issue. Unfortunately we dont have enough riders for the ultimate solution which would be separate track days for big and small bikes, and no one wants a forth group because that will take away track time. I personally would like to see lap times for each group changed and enforced. A 2.00 min cut off for A group Thill would be a good start. Would be a motivator for more people to pick up the pace.

Also humbly submitted by another old guy who's primary objective is to make it back to the pits safely, and occasionally enjoy an unobstructed fast lap or 2

You say that the issues arise when a big bikes straightaway speed and a small bikes corner speed cause then to"intersect at the apex." ...but then offer up a more stringent laptimes cutoff as the solution (also, good luck filling out a trackday A-group with that reqt!)? The guys running mid 1:50s on little bikes aren't going that much faster at the end of the straight than me doing 2:10s. The difference comes from corner speed, which would make things even worse, per your first point?

 

[easter bunny]

A flat 2 minutes at TH would disqualify probably more than half the clubman racers on an AFM weekend. Honestly if we throw out the FP guys who are literally semi pro, I bet more than half the field of licensed racers aren't turning those times - in a race.

Fact is we can argue all day long but there's no adequate way of grouping every combination of skill level and displacement into just 3 classes. Unless TD providers start having dedicated novice and expert days we have to be careful and remember it's for fun. Otherwise go race.

 

[afm199]

A flat 2 minutes at TH would disqualify probably more than half the clubman racers on an AFM weekend. Honestly if we throw out the FP guys who are literally semi pro, I bet more than half the field of licensed racers aren't turning those times - in a race.

Fact is we can argue all day long but there's no adequate way of grouping every combination of skill level and displacement into just 3 classes. Unless TD providers start having dedicated novice and expert days we have to be careful and remember it's for fun. Otherwise go race.

Correct. I doubt that 10% of all trackday riders turn 2:00 at Thill. That's fucking fast.

And that's the tradeoff. You want a session only with riders just like you? Pay for it. Economics dictate group size. The guys running 1:50s have the same discomfort with 2:00 riders, as 2:00 riders have with 2:10 riders. I have never seen a faster into slower rider crash in all my years. I'm sure they have happened, but 300s on the straights just aren't a big problem, unless you are racing.

 

[Spec-ECU]

Also, we all need to remember it's a track day, not an AFM practice as much as many would like it to be understood that way. Personally if I want some clear laps, I make sure I'm the first one to pre-grid. If not, then I understand that I will probably not get a good clean lap.

Yup. It's just a track day.

As much as we all want to have the track all to ourselves to set personal bests, there are other people who have equally paid for the time and space. I've personally tried to time the groups to get some clear laps for myself, but even that's a hit or miss.

If you really want little to no traffic, try a private track day.

 

[stangmx13]

any rider in any group is less safe if they are at the extremes of the lap times for that group, especially the slowest extreme. being the slowest rider in B-group is probably the worst pace at any trackday, in terms of having to deal with other riders and their mistakes. being mid-pack of the group makes for the funnest trackdays because u dont have to deal with as many other riders. being the fastest is safe enough, but not always the most fun because you are constantly going out of your way for less skilled riders.

That's my point too... "300's don't belong in A group, for safety" makes no sense if there's still 600/1000's in B group.

If it's a safety issue in A group where the most skilled/experienced riders are, it follows that it's an even bigger danger in B group with the same bikes but less skilled (overall) riders.

In earnest, if I'm wrong, what am I missing? Why are 300's less hazardous in B group when compared to 600/1000's? The argument should be to move to big/small bike groups instead of skill groups if that's the case.

That said, I can understand big-bike A-group riders disliking being "inconvenienced" in A-group by 250/300's while they're chasing laptimes. Just not from a safety standpoint while ignoring the issue still exists in B-group.

one less-safe thing with A-group is that theres no upper limit on speed. B-group might have a 15s delta between fastest and slowest. A-group could have a 25+s delta. in those cases, the slowest rider in A on a 300 will be slower everywhere, including the corners. sure, those riders definitely have the skill to pass safely. but shit happens and it still sucks being in the way or getting laps ruined.

 

[Gavin Botha]

I dont have anything more to contribute on this topic and am not going to address the defensive tangent comments, so I will wrap up my point which seem to have gotten lost:

My assertion is the huge speed differences between big bikes and little bikes presents a unique safety concern. This topic is not new and has been brought up many times (typically in forums that fast riders frequent) It is not the end of the world and I am fully aware that economics of this industry cannot do anything about it, even I am willing to pay double to ride in a group with a 2:00 THill cut-off. Feel free to put your head in the sand and place your trust in those on the other side that are telling you it is a problem. Best single line on this topic comes from stangmx13 "sure, those riders definitely have the skill to pass safely. but shit happens" 'easier with big speed deltas' (added by GB)

For those that morphed the discussion into fast vs slow laptimes, I say this. Any fast rider that goes into C group and blows by everyone is considered selfish and inconsiderate (at best) because they are ruining the experience from those that signed up to be in a slow group. The exact argument is true for any slow rider (does not meet suggested cut-off times) that rides in A group. If you want to ride in the fast group work on your skills and get fast - My personal opinion of course - Best single line on this topic again comes from stangmx13 "it still sucks being in the way or getting laps ruined."

So enough with the arm wrestling, lets all try and be considerate and respectful out there - and stay the hell in the right group