Just for the record I don't disagree with anything you had to say there Louemc. I don't think anyone was proposing, or even thinks there is, a final ultimate solution to the motorcycle safety problem. I'm just throwing out more ideas, take 'em or leave 'em. I don't really care, but you don't have to imply my thoughts aren't reasonable, or valid.
Your input needed California Motorcycle Safety
- Thread starter silversvs
- Start date
Human Ills
Well-known member
As long as we are in fantasy land. Mandatory 5000 miles motorcycle experience before getting a license to operate a car.
serazin
Well-known member
Neither is well fare, but the people who enact laws that treats these things other than birthrights will be labeled a racist and voted out of office.
Kornholio
:wave
It's Welfare and no, they will not. :|
Roadstergal
Sergeant Jackrum
Ja, I get the feeling that overhauling the US licensing system is out of the scope of the group - no matter how much I agree with Ghost's suggestions.
Speaking of fantasy land...
ontherearwheel
Well-known member
There was a reply that had some stats and one of those stats had a decline in motorcycle accidents for some years.
Why the decline?
If there was a decline without any of these suggestions, why would you think there will be any after?
Your survival is your responisbility and no ones elses. Even then, in the real world, bad things happen to good people. Thats life. Trying to regulate people and their actions doesn't work.
There is no need to do anything. Al this is gonna do is raise taxes for things that have very little affect in real life. Kinda like the hands free cell phone bullshit.
However, this all makes good PR.......no matter how uesless.
Why the decline?
If there was a decline without any of these suggestions, why would you think there will be any after?
Your survival is your responisbility and no ones elses. Even then, in the real world, bad things happen to good people. Thats life. Trying to regulate people and their actions doesn't work.
There is no need to do anything. Al this is gonna do is raise taxes for things that have very little affect in real life. Kinda like the hands free cell phone bullshit.
However, this all makes good PR.......no matter how uesless.
GhostRider
Well-known member
it's not neccesarily called "experience". you cannot get experience in anything unless you DO it.
so, yes, i agree.... sitting on your butt for two more years doesnt give you any "experience". all it can give you is maturity.
you know, that thing which prevents you to give into peer pressure.
peer pressure like "duuude, you ride like a pansy on that moped. gotta get yourself a MANS bike. ain't a bike until the front wheel comes up every time you see a hot chick"
now, if you can stant up to that, man up, tell him you will fuck his girlfriend at his funeral and get on your 250cc and ride off in the sunset.... until then you aint having any MATURITY.
i doubt anyone at 18 has much of this either, but it's more than at 16.
the reason i dont want 14yr olds on turbo busas is called attention span.
younger kids have no concept of prioritizing.
next time your kid plays with his/her favourite toy, see how quickly you cna distract them.
just yell : "oh, look at that pretty santa over there".
swoooosh... all the attention goes to santa. forgotten is the toy.
now imagine this while driving towards an intersection....
..... oooooo, pretty santa. what red light? rudolf, where? BBBAM! just ran a redlight.
i argue that a child cannot focus enough on one "life dependent" task w/o being distracted.
(and yes, some people never grow up, miss coffee sipping soccer mom!)
very close.
Trackdays don't count.
as long as you're off public roads (dirt bikes, track days) you can do whatever you want.
dirtbikes at age 4 are AWESOME!!!!
18+ license is reasonable.
although - i argue i WANT kids to be able to RIDE before they can legally DRIVE. i want EVERYONE (well, ok, most everyone) to have a strong incentive to start out their lifes on a MOTORCYCLE!
that way, once they drive the "5-tonn weapon of mass destruction" they at least know how vulnerable it feels on a bike, and they had time to "get used" to traffic on a bike.
-and yes, there is all the "soccer moms" crying out that their babies are al gonna get killed when they're on a bike....
but that only means that the CAR drivers will be more careful, because it's not just the rowdy 1%ers out there who they push off the road in their cars, but also precious little spawns who are out there braving the roads on two wheels.
crazybob
Lanesharing is caring
Why not give everyone a strong incentive to start out their lives on a bicycle? That's even better to start the young 'uns two-wheeling in the right direction. Oh right, it's hard to legislate cultural values into existence...
18+ licenses are not reasonable. All this will do is punish those who actually have what it takes at that age (like yours truly) to drive safely. It's the licensing process you want to make more strict. You know, something that might actually make a difference in the quality of drivers out there?
18+ licenses are not reasonable. All this will do is punish those who actually have what it takes at that age (like yours truly) to drive safely. It's the licensing process you want to make more strict. You know, something that might actually make a difference in the quality of drivers out there?
Human Ills
Well-known member
When you get a little older, you'll understand.
crazybob
Lanesharing is caring
Are you talking to me, junior?
I'm not convinced age restrictions will help, we don't have the studies to say that it is the problem and I felt like I was a reasonably skilled driver/rider at 16. I didn't get into any "accidents" until I was well past 20.
I think this is already being done by this group, but as opposed to enforcement in mc areas, how about getting set up with some advisement locations or something. Where we could go have our bikes checked out for legalities without pressure of being ticketed on site.
I think this is already being done by this group, but as opposed to enforcement in mc areas, how about getting set up with some advisement locations or something. Where we could go have our bikes checked out for legalities without pressure of being ticketed on site.
crazybob
Lanesharing is caring
^-- Exactly. People used to get married, have kids, toil hard in the fields, fight and die all before they could legally buy porn in this country now. Not saying those are all good things, but come on, adolescents can do a lot more than they're generally given credit for. Age is not the issue. The degradation of personal responsibility and perception of consequences in our culture is the issue.
Dug
I said good day, sir!
I don't doubt the physical abilities of your average 16 year old kid. What I really can't trust is the judgment ability of a said 16 year kid. Fight or flight decision making can lead to bad situations along with the in ability to grasp ones own mortality at that age. Then you throw onto this mix some adolescent peer pressure and you got a recipe for a tragic story in the making. There are very good reasons and tons of data backing up as to why insurance companies charge minors and young adults shit ton more money for insurance on "sports" vehicles of any type. All of these reason to me are the core reasons why you wouldn't want to see your average 16 year old kid riding a Yamaha R1 or a "sports car".
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UDRider
FLCL?
You really don't want to go that route.
Anyway as for original question. Better driver and motorcyclists education. The entrance level is way way way too low. Start treating the driving as a privilege that it is, not as the right like some motorists seem to think.
Harsher penalties for injuring or killing someone. As someone who also an avid cyclist this is one of my biggest gripes. Seems like "I didn't see him" is a perfectly valid excuse.
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ThermalStone
Well-known member
I would also encourage the use of gear other than helmets.
DataDan
Mama says he's bona fide
Lots of reasons. A big one, IMHO, is the aging of the riding population. Old farts do less stupid shit that leads to motorcycle crashes. Maybe they still have scars from their youthful boneheadedness, or maybe they're just wusses like me.
Another is the California Motorcyclist Safety Program (the CMSP marker on the chart attached to my earlier post), which made training a state-managed function and required riders under 21 to take MSF for a license. Apart from the license requirement for younger riders, just making training available statewide has been a boon. When I first took the MSF ERC 25 years ago, training wasn't easy to find. Courses were taught only in big markets; now they're available throughout the state.
The helmet law, not so much. Note on the chart that the fatality rate had nearly bottomed out by the time it went into effect.
But helmet use was a factor in the decline (again IMHO). Over the past 30 years, helmets have become standard equipment for riders, at least among some segments of motorcycle culture. That was due to in great part ot the influence of the motorcycling press. Going back through 1980s magazines, I find lots of articles promoting protective gear. Over time, they helped create the cultural norm for helmets that is obvious today at BARF and elsewhere.
Alcohol has declined as a factor in fatal motorcycle crashes. Fifteen years ago, 44% of California riders in fatal crashes had at least .01 BAC. That's now down to 30%. This is another one of those "cultural norm" deals. Drinking and riding used to be acceptable (thought hardly encouraged) but is now disdained by many in motorcycling.
Road improvements have also reduced crashes. Left-turn signals and divided roadways limit the exposure of motorcyclists to the most common car-vs-bike crash. Better merge areas on both freeways and high-volume surface streets reduce cut-offs. HOV lanes make it possible for motorcylists to avoid much of the freeway madness. This is especially true in LA and Orange Counties, where many HOV lanes are physically divided from other traffic.
I think you're missing the intent of silversvs's question. He's not looking just for legal measures to enforce safe riding (though those have been prominent in the replies), he's asking for all suggestions:
Many more improvements can be made in addition to the ones I mentioned above without getting into draconian enforcement:
- More roundabouts. A better solution to the left-turn problem.
- MSF for a license at any age. If you want to ride a motorcycle on the street, you should be able to turn and brake well enough to deal with an emergency. DMV isn't the venue for demonstrating those skills, so require those who want a license to pass either the BRC or ERC. A 40something born-again biker, forced to take a class, who sees a five-foot-nothin instructor chick on a frickin Road Glide whip his ass on the test might just get the idea that there's more to the riding thing than he thought.
- Improve intersection sightlines. One of my pet peeves is intersections where a car making a left turn from a side street or driveway onto a main street can't see traffic approaching from the left well enough to turn safely. Untrimmed shrubbery, business signs, and parked vehicles all contribute. Identify locations where these collisions occur (all vehicles, not just motorcycles) and look for poor sightlines. Force the city, county, or property owner to take necessary action.
- Continue the push against drinking and riding. With 30% of fatal motorcycle crashes involving a rider with BAC >= .01 (and 25% >= .08), there are a lot of riders who don't Get It. BTW, this is a problem that affects all age groups. Contrary to the common perception that it's just an old-farts-on-Harleys deal, the age group with the most .08+ deaths in 2007 and 2008 was <30, which took the lead in California for the first time since 1997. Enforcement is important, but the most effective way to reduce drinking and riding is to make it culturally unacceptable. That has happened in some segments of the riding population, but obviously not all.
Z3n
Squid.
The major thing that everyone is glossing over here is that our data about crashes, accidents, and the effectiveness of gear is THIRTY YEARS OLD.
I cannot believe this hasn't been mentioned more than once in the first page...we haven't had a conclusive study on motorcycle accidents since the Hurt Report, 30 years ago. We need modern information, about more modern problems. Bikes have changed dramatically since then, gear has changed dramatically since then, and making legislation based off of the assumptions of 30 years ago isn't going to be the most effective use of our money and your time.
I cannot believe this hasn't been mentioned more than once in the first page...we haven't had a conclusive study on motorcycle accidents since the Hurt Report, 30 years ago. We need modern information, about more modern problems. Bikes have changed dramatically since then, gear has changed dramatically since then, and making legislation based off of the assumptions of 30 years ago isn't going to be the most effective use of our money and your time.
Angel-be-Good
250cc, whaddabouddit?
I say the answer is more restrictions on our liberties and less personal responsibility. Mandated one-size-fits-all regulations will improve our lives.
It's up to riders to be as safe as they want to be. I'm all for being preachy and educating both riders and drivers. I think places like BARF, where, as DataDan put it, there's a culture of motorcycle safety, are a great thing. Popular hangouts like Alice's and motorcycling magazines are dominated by geared-up riders, and I think exposing that culture could have a positive influence on the casual weekend riders that aren't a part of it.
Gear and safety-conscious riding can come across as dorky to macho-men poseurs, but there's a positive, "cool" spin to it as well. A motorcyclist in full leathers looks boss. Safe riding can also mean fast, skillful riding. Riding drunk isn't just illegal--that's not enough to stop the people that'll do it--but it's straight idiotic. You wanna be an idiot, unskilled rider in the wrong outfit?
As someone who does a pretty good job of looking out for himself, my biggest concern is other traffic. Left-turners are insanely bad. An awareness campaign could help, I dunno if it'd be a lasting impression, though. Turn signals really need to be enforced. In my opinion, the things that honestly make driving more dangerous are the things least enforced. Minor speeding, no seat belts, no front license plates, window tint, expired registration tags--these don't make traffic dangerous, but they're easy to cite. Failure to signal / look before turning or merging, inattentive driving, bone-head maneuvers--they happen in an instant and get ignored but they're what's gonna kill me.
It's up to riders to be as safe as they want to be. I'm all for being preachy and educating both riders and drivers. I think places like BARF, where, as DataDan put it, there's a culture of motorcycle safety, are a great thing. Popular hangouts like Alice's and motorcycling magazines are dominated by geared-up riders, and I think exposing that culture could have a positive influence on the casual weekend riders that aren't a part of it.
Gear and safety-conscious riding can come across as dorky to macho-men poseurs, but there's a positive, "cool" spin to it as well. A motorcyclist in full leathers looks boss. Safe riding can also mean fast, skillful riding. Riding drunk isn't just illegal--that's not enough to stop the people that'll do it--but it's straight idiotic. You wanna be an idiot, unskilled rider in the wrong outfit?
As someone who does a pretty good job of looking out for himself, my biggest concern is other traffic. Left-turners are insanely bad. An awareness campaign could help, I dunno if it'd be a lasting impression, though. Turn signals really need to be enforced. In my opinion, the things that honestly make driving more dangerous are the things least enforced. Minor speeding, no seat belts, no front license plates, window tint, expired registration tags--these don't make traffic dangerous, but they're easy to cite. Failure to signal / look before turning or merging, inattentive driving, bone-head maneuvers--they happen in an instant and get ignored but they're what's gonna kill me.
Maybe better and more training for service members. And more frequesnt MSF courses that we can take. I can imagine its the same for all branches, but the Army loses so many soldiers per year due to the fact that we have so many new riders who dont have the experience. Or, it goes the other way and those of us who have been riding/racing for many years come out here and there is a shortage of MSF courses that we are allowed to take. I have been on a 6 month waiting list for an Army approved MSF, and I still dont know when they will have a slot open. Buuuuut, with no other transportation besides my bikes, I ride every day. I cant park on post without the MSF either, so its a pain, but I have an AZ drivers license and moto endorsement, and have for the past 14 years. It sucks to see so many people leave the states for one or two deployments, come home safely, then get killed 15 minutes from home. Granted, most of the time its their fault for buying a bike they werent ready for, and riding like an ass, but it still sucks to see.
OK, Im done ranting now, I need a nap
OK, Im done ranting now, I need a nap