weight on foot pegs

[FourThreeSix]

You can do whatever you want, but I will make 2 comments:

1) At the sharp end of the sport, there are certain fundamentals that are being used that is the consensus of all the top riders.

2) Amateur internet training will net you amateur results.


Ken

I LOVE this.

 

[mxrider89]

I LOVE this.

agreed. if its the advice that JD gets , thats the advice im taking.

 

[afm199]

You can do whatever you want, but I will make 2 comments:

1) At the sharp end of the sport, there are certain fundamentals that are being used that is the consensus of all the top riders.

2) Amateur internet training will net you amateur results.


Ken

This.

 

[jacob11379]

is it interesting? the race he won was in 98' on a 500cc 2-stroke. IMO, we cant assume the techniques he used back then are ideal for the motorcycle and tires that u are using now. we also cant assume that what hes "teaching" in these vids would put him anywhere near his previous level.

We also cant assume it wouldnt

even his comment about "max engine braking" is kinda funny because motorcycles can have dramatically different engine braking. a stock bike will have a lot more engine braking than an MA spec bike w/ slipper mods and a kit ECU. so maybe your bike won't have enough engine braking and u should use 5% brake all the way to your slow point instead. hmmm.

yep lots of variables

should u apply what u feel suits u best? u don't know what u don't know, so how can u know what is best?

I agree I have no idea what is best

IMO, listen to coaches that have personally worked with u first. listen to coaches that have worked with many students second. listen to yourself third. and listen to yahoos on the internet last, prob including me :laughing

You can do whatever you want, but I will make 2 comments:

1) At the sharp end of the sport, there are certain fundamentals that are being used that is the consensus of all the top riders.

Im certainly not at the sharp end of the sport, my best time at T-hill is a 2:15 and I have about 8 whole track days under my belt

2) Amateur internet training will net you amateur results.

I dont think we are even talking about the same thing. Im referring to using the method to work on corner entry and exit before I try to go faster and start braking. If I got amateur results out of it I would be pretty damn happy cause im far from that....


Ken

Forgive me if this multiquote thing dont work as ive never used it before

 

[Holeshot]

We use the AIM solo quite a bit at out Rick schools. Works great. The trick is....what data are you comparing it to....?

Ken

Translation for those who don't understand: WHO are you comparing your data to? Whose correct line/ data are you comparing to your (incorrect) line/ data? That's an important part of data.

Myself... Lap to lap, corner to corner, where I throttle, where I brake, how far off my lines I am and how much it changes my time good or bad, My corner entry speed and my relative corner exit speed.

For starters anyway...

No bueno because you're not knowledgable on what the baseline for those things are, except yourself...and you're most likely (99.9%) not doing much of that at the correct level.

I don't brake to the apex either. I'll begin turning in a little later than Ken did in his video and will trail off the brakes pretty quickly, as I turn the bike fairly quickly there. I treat it as a double apex, getting to the throttle before the first apex and allowing the line to bulge out a little bit mid corner. Approaching mid corner, I'll stop rolling on or even roll off slightly, and tighten the line to re-point to the second apex. Once re-pointed, I'll resume rolling on prior to the second apex.

Sounds like the car line, with the quick turn into T2. If you hit the washboard bumps on the exit of T2, it's gonna be a slower entry into T3, I've found.

"brake all the way to the apex" is a generalization. its fastest for most corners, but not all of them. so if u ever think "theres no way I can brake THAT far", u might be right. plus, it depends a lot on your definition of 'apex' :laughing

Apex. Interesting term and one that's as ill defined as "counter steering". To short run this post; there may be a different apex for different riders depending on their style and goal (passing, etc) in that turn. That being said, most track riders make up their apex as they approach the corner based on where they area on track at the time and the track they ride is much different each lap...and thus, the apex is different. But, it's THEIR apex, albeit, not an optimal one.

Given that, I like the definition for apex as "point of biggest direction change" or "point of greatest steering". I think this is the first thing I gleaned from Ken 10 years ago....

You can do whatever you want, but I will make 2 comments:

1) At the sharp end of the sport, there are certain fundamentals that are being used that is the consensus of all the top riders.

2) Amateur internet training will net you amateur results.


Ken

Well said.

Forgive me if this multiquote thing dont work as ive never used it before

There are two controls on a motorcycle: Throttle and brake. I was a new expert when I read a comment from a former multi #1 plate. The summation? If you're not using the brake or the throttle, you're not in control...ergo, you're out of control.

Take it for what you will (it's the internet after all), but learning how to approach a corner on the track without brakes has 0 application that I can find, especially if you are running a 2:15 pace. Ken won't give you much more than he's given here as it's his profession, but a day with him would pay big benefits, well (WELL) over the cost of Data Aq. I ran that shit for a season and learned one thing: my teammate and I (at the time) ride totally different and thus, his data was useless to me. My data was pretty useless too cause I wasn't good enough to repeat things lap after lap after lap.

Spend that money on known instructors. If you ask "what does KNOWN mean", it means, names everyone knows and agrees upon. There's about 5 I can think of on the West Coast. Everyone else is wasting your money...and figure you'll get 2 days with them for the cost of that Data Aq that's gonna be a heap of parts when the front end collapses into the tarmac entering Thill T3...

You've got a great resource and professional coach in this thread. Seize it, IMO.

 

[afm199]

Translation for those who don't understand: WHO are you comparing your data to? Whose correct line/ data are you comparing to your (incorrect) line/ data? That's an important part of data.



No bueno because you're not knowledgable on what the baseline for those things are, except yourself...and you're most likely (99.9%) not doing much of that at the correct level.



Sounds like the car line, with the quick turn into T2. If you hit the washboard bumps on the exit of T2, it's gonna be a slower entry into T3, I've found.



Apex. Interesting term and one that's as ill defined as "counter steering". To short run this post; there may be a different apex for different riders depending on their style and goal (passing, etc) in that turn. That being said, most track riders make up their apex as they approach the corner based on where they area on track at the time and the track they ride is much different each lap...and thus, the apex is different. But, it's THEIR apex, albeit, not an optimal one.

Given that, I like the definition for apex as "point of biggest direction change" or "point of greatest steering". I think this is the first thing I gleaned from Ken 10 years ago....



Well said.



There are two controls on a motorcycle: Throttle and brake. I was a new expert when I read a comment from a former multi #1 plate. The summation? If you're not using the brake or the throttle, you're not in control...ergo, you're out of control.

Take it for what you will (it's the internet after all), but learning how to approach a corner on the track without brakes has 0 application that I can find, especially if you are running a 2:15 pace. Ken won't give you much more than he's given here as it's his profession, but a day with him would pay big benefits, well (WELL) over the cost of Data Aq. I ran that shit for a season and learned one thing: my teammate and I (at the time) ride totally different and thus, his data was useless to me. My data was pretty useless too cause I wasn't good enough to repeat things lap after lap after lap.

Spend that money on known instructors. If you ask "what does KNOWN mean", it means, names everyone knows and agrees upon. There's about 5 I can think of on the West Coast. Everyone else is wasting your money...and figure you'll get 2 days with them for the cost of that Data Aq that's gonna be a heap of parts when the front end collapses into the tarmac entering Thill T3...

You've got a great resource and professional coach in this thread. Seize it, IMO.

Well said. If you manage to get time with Ken Hill or one of the few Rick instructors, you will be lucky and go away with a lot of knowledge.

As to the data acquisition, the problem on the track isn't lack of data, it's learning to process it appropriately. There is a huge amount of data in one lap at any track. If you can't turn it into action, it's not data, it's noise.

 

[jacob11379]

Translation for those who don't understand: WHO are you comparing your data to? Whose correct line/ data are you comparing to your (incorrect) line/ data? That's an important part of data.



No bueno because you're not knowledgable on what the baseline for those things are, except yourself...and you're most likely (99.9%) not doing much of that at the correct level.



Sounds like the car line, with the quick turn into T2. If you hit the washboard bumps on the exit of T2, it's gonna be a slower entry into T3, I've found.



Apex. Interesting term and one that's as ill defined as "counter steering". To short run this post; there may be a different apex for different riders depending on their style and goal (passing, etc) in that turn. That being said, most track riders make up their apex as they approach the corner based on where they area on track at the time and the track they ride is much different each lap...and thus, the apex is different. But, it's THEIR apex, albeit, not an optimal one.

Given that, I like the definition for apex as "point of biggest direction change" or "point of greatest steering". I think this is the first thing I gleaned from Ken 10 years ago....



Well said.



There are two controls on a motorcycle: Throttle and brake. I was a new expert when I read a comment from a former multi #1 plate. The summation? If you're not using the brake or the throttle, you're not in control...ergo, you're out of control.

Take it for what you will (it's the internet after all), but learning how to approach a corner on the track without brakes has 0 application that I can find, especially if you are running a 2:15 pace. Ken won't give you much more than he's given here as it's his profession, but a day with him would pay big benefits, well (WELL) over the cost of Data Aq. I ran that shit for a season and learned one thing: my teammate and I (at the time) ride totally different and thus, his data was useless to me. My data was pretty useless too cause I wasn't good enough to repeat things lap after lap after lap.

Spend that money on known instructors. If you ask "what does KNOWN mean", it means, names everyone knows and agrees upon. There's about 5 I can think of on the West Coast. Everyone else is wasting your money...and figure you'll get 2 days with them for the cost of that Data Aq that's gonna be a heap of parts when the front end collapses into the tarmac entering Thill T3...

You've got a great resource and professional coach in this thread. Seize it, IMO.

Numerous points taken...:thumbup

 

[khill]

(Entry) Apex = The closest potion to the inside part of the truck you come.
(Exit) Apex = The closest portion to the outside part of the track you come.

Everything I have is in the podcasts.....It's all there.....

Ken

 

[Holeshot]

Jacob, Ken's got podcasts. Eat em up!

 

[jacob11379]

Jacob, Ken's got podcasts. Eat em up!

Yeah Brother ive got about 15 of them down....:thumbup

 

[FZ1MinesRdRipper]

I have issue with this statement and it I can almost guarantee it will be read as - "I won't lose the front if I don't use the brakes" It also doesn't take into account different speeds and different radius' and blankets all riders and corners together.

IME, the #1 crash I see is:

An improper braking technique entering a corner (off the brakes too early) having positive acceleration and then adding lean angle to achieve the desired trajectory.


Hands down the #1 crash I see.

So yes, you absolutely can lose the front off the brakes in a corner.

Ken

:thumbup:ride

 

[FZ1MinesRdRipper]

You can do whatever you want, but I will make 2 comments:

1) At the sharp end of the sport, there are certain fundamentals that are being used that is the consensus of all the top riders.

2) Amateur internet training will net you amateur results.


Ken

End of story...:applause. Well said Ken.
I get a kick out of all these post.

 

[Lewd_Ferrigno]

Have you played with different knee pressures on the tank? Also, I only apply pressure to the pegs in fast change of direction or corner exit, if I’m not riding a bike with TC.

I try to have a light touch on the bike, so as to not induce any unwanted chassis movement

 

[Lewd_Ferrigno]

But, in the end, all riders have a different style, in the details

 

[Lewd_Ferrigno]

thats Simon Crafar, an ex-GP racer with 1 win to his name. he is an amazing rider. its still undecided if hes an amazing teacher.

One thing is for sure, not a great announcer

 

[Smash Allen]

I like Simon!!!! He is a head coach with the Spanish CIV league, I urge you to watch the dvd on YouTube about him and then tell me he can’t teach!!!!!

 

[stangmx13]

I like Simon!!!! He is a head coach with the Spanish CIV league, I urge you to watch the dvd on YouTube about him and then tell me he can’t teach!!!!!

ive watched a bunch of the vids. it seems like he averages about 75% great content and 25% nonsense. the nonsense seems to be a combination of disagreeing with himself, teaching stuff that other coaches would say never to do, explaining things in ways that make it more complicated, etc. I can pick out the nonsense, do some critical thinking about it, and chose to ignore it or not. but a newer rider may just take some of it at face value, which would be a disservice to them.

 

[Smash Allen]

ive watched a bunch of the vids. it seems like he averages about 75% great content and 25% nonsense. the nonsense seems to be a combination of disagreeing with himself, teaching stuff that other coaches would say never to do, explaining things in ways that make it more complicated, etc. I can pick out the nonsense, do some critical thinking about it, and chose to ignore it or not. but a newer rider may just take some of it at face value, which would be a disservice to them.

Could you provide an example video and detail the 75% and 25%? I haven’t picked up any inconsistencies but would be interested to know your thoughts

 

[stangmx13]

the video already in this thread about off-throttle turning is a good example. ill try to find the time to call out specific things.

 

[afm199]

Have you played with different knee pressures on the tank? Also, I only apply pressure to the pegs in fast change of direction or corner exit, if I’m not riding a bike with TC.

I try to have a light touch on the bike, so as to not induce any unwanted chassis movement

The older I get, the more knee pressure I use. Weighting the pegs is more difficult now, my left knee just won't take the beating anymore, and I end up using a lot of tank pressure and body movement to compensate for not being able to really weight the left peg much.