Traction control

Holeshot

Holeshot

Super Moderator
Staff member
Aware said:
you already know), the esses at Buttonwillow are flat and they flood when it rains. There was a film of standing water after the apex of the final curve and I hit it while on power, before I was fully upright. My question was based on my thinking that front and rear are sliding and wondering how an apparently synchronized slide would change with a reduction of power on the rear, wondering if while the rear gains traction, does this also remove load from the front and improve traction, or somehow does the front react negatively.
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2 things come to mind:

1. The final corner in the esses is a really bad place to crash, especially when it's muddy. If it was truly rainy, I'd encourage not fucking around there. I'll leave the details of why out. They're bad.

2. To answer your question on loss of grip/ slides: the wheel WITH grip is in control and leads the way. A sliding front with a gripped up rear will turn into a lowside. A sliding rear with a gripped up front may turn into a loss of the rear/ lowside as well. However, if the rear gains traction suddenly, usually this is what results in a high-side and spectacular sky pilot shit.

When riders spin the rear and chop the throttle, it's flight time for them, many times. All that spinning energy has to go somewhere when things grip up...a front gripping up at lean angle can do kinda the same thing: pitching the bike upright somewhat and then, it's up to fate. A lot of these riders pile too...
 
Aware

Aware

Well-known member
Holeshot said:
2 things come to mind:

1. The final corner in the esses is a really bad place to crash, especially when it's muddy. If it was truly rainy, I'd encourage not fucking around there. I'll leave the details of why out. They're bad.

2. To answer your question on loss of grip/ slides: the wheel WITH grip is in control and leads the way. A sliding front with a gripped up rear will turn into a lowside. A sliding rear with a gripped up front may turn into a loss of the rear/ lowside as well. However, if the rear gains traction suddenly, usually this is what results in a high-side and spectacular sky pilot shit.

When riders spin the rear and chop the throttle, it's flight time for them, many times. All that spinning energy has to go somewhere when things grip up...a front gripping up at lean angle can do kinda the same thing: pitching the bike upright somewhat and then, it's up to fate. A lot of these riders pile too...
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Thanks - 2 is where my speculation was leaning. I have little doubt that traction control can help tame a powerful bike, but like many I have a reluctance to allow the bike to try to take control.

By the way we were well warned about the esses (aka The Swamp) at the start of the day. It was fun and challenging to navigate them in the wet. I think only one rider had the misfortune to fail to get all the way through the esses.
 
J

jaybocc2

o lento
Enchanter said:
Are you really rolling on the throttle and using the rear brake simultaneously? That sounds like a recipe for disaster.
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Its not as if i'm standing on the rear brake while throttling out. I have a thumb brake which can't lock the rear. So on exits or situations where i find i need a little extra stability i'll apply some rear brake to help give myself some comfort and buffer when i feel like i might been too aggressive with my roll on. You can say its bad technique but it works for me and i've gotten considerably faster (2:00 to 1:56) since i started using the rear brake more often (like, 200% more often). It is especially useful in situations like cresting the hill after T9. That said the majority of my rear brake usage is on corner entry which is not particularly relevant to the conversation.

Enchanter said:
Your first reply to me was pretty condescending. I reply / respond to you, you remain silent, and tell me to grow up?



Previously I asked you to explain your reasoning and you chose not to. I tried again and got the same result. Asking you to explain your support of using the throttle and rear brake on the track is baiting?

We have one individual in this thread that uses the rear brake with the throttle on the track at the exit of the turn. I still don’t think that’s smart. Dragging the rear brake can be useful when making slow speed maneuvers but I seriously question its use here. Your post appears to support using this ‘technique’ on the track. Is that correct?
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Sorry that my drive by thread-posting stirred up shit, just sharing what *I* do to ride comfortably at my pace.

Some pre-TC Formula Pacific fast guys have talked to me about using the rear brake on exit to control wheelspin. I may not be 100% applying or interpreting the technique correctly but i have found it useful in getting faster as it is.
 
Smash Allen

Smash Allen

Banned
Do you have reduced engine braking? If so, can you increase back to stock levels? For corner entry purposes...

As your competitor I prefer you to have more to deal with, so please keep your thumb brake and reduced engine braking :kiss
 
Enchanter

Enchanter

Ghost in The Machine
Staff member
jaybocc2 said:
Sorry that my drive by thread-posting stirred up shit, just sharing what *I* do to ride comfortably at my pace.

Some pre-TC Formula Pacific fast guys have talked to me about using the rear brake on exit to control wheelspin. I may not be 100% applying or interpreting the technique correctly but i have found it useful in getting faster as it is.
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Stirring the pot is what BARF is all about. That’s not a bad thing in this case. I was hoping for a discussion expanding on the technique, but for some reason(s), that’s not happening here.

Let’s try again:
Are you experiencing wheel-spin on the exits? Are you using the rear brake to control it? That isn’t clear from your previous posts.
 
stangmx13

stangmx13

not Stan
Phanuel said:
I don't understand why using the rear brake to control wheelies and power delivery is so controversial.
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the rear brake is always controversial for no good reason. IMO, some ppl understand how the tool can be used and chose to do so or not. some ppl don't and make a huge fuss about it.
 
Enchanter

Enchanter

Ghost in The Machine
Staff member
Controlling wheelies: check.
Controlling wheel-spin: check.

Using it to prevent TC from engaging seems weird to me, I stated as much, and I’m not getting much in further discussion in that regard.

I just reread the thread, and discovered that I confused the OP with the poster that uses it to prevent TC engaging. That definitely contributed to some of my confusion.

Controversial? Yeah, I’d agree. I’m attempting to gain understanding of the process/ technique. I apologize if I came across opposite of that.

To be clear, I’m a rear brake proponent on the street and use it almost 99% of the time. On the track I use it when I have the bandwidth to do so. Sometimes I can’t use it effectively so I stop while working on other bits of info and skill. Once I’ve gotten better at those, I try to bring the rear brake into the equation again.
 
Enchanter

Enchanter

Ghost in The Machine
Staff member
Phanuel said:
He's on a 600, so 95% of his usage in corner entry, but he definitely uses it over the crest of T9 at 1:25 when the bike can actually power wheelie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgRw9yY3TR0

I don't understand why using the rear brake to control wheelies and power delivery is so controversial.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBKR2apAl7I&feature=youtu.be&t=660
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In the first video I didn’t see rearbrake on the exits. Not really past the apex either. In the higher speed / longer turns like T2, T7 and T8, but it was applied prior to the apex’s. I fully understand it’s use in those turns in that location. Interesting that cars use it there too.

In the 2nd vid, I heard Guy mention it, but I suspect that his use at the IOM is not to prevent TC engagement.
 
stangmx13

stangmx13

not Stan
Enchanter said:
Controlling wheel-spin: check.

Using it to prevent TC from engaging seems weird to me, I stated as much, and I’m not getting much in further discussion in that regard.
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these 2 things are the same thing. so no need to be confused on the latter.
 
J

jaybocc2

o lento
Smash Allen said:
Do you have reduced engine braking? If so, can you increase back to stock levels? For corner entry purposes...

As your competitor I prefer you to have more to deal with, so please keep your thumb brake and reduced engine braking :kiss
Click to expand...

I have it where i like it, or at least where i'm comfortable. TBH I just ride the bike. Unless its doing something i don't like, i adjust to ride the bike. There is so much i can do to be a better rider that i refuse to blame the bike unless its outright doing bad/scary shit or preventing me from going faster which my crew chief and coaches are good at pointing out.

Enchanter said:
Stirring the pot is what BARF is all about. That’s not a bad thing in this case. I was hoping for a discussion expanding on the technique, but for some reason(s), that’s not happening here.

Let’s try again:
Are you experiencing wheel-spin on the exits? Are you using the rear brake to control it? That isn’t clear from your previous posts.
Click to expand...

In certain turns i do encounter some wheel spin on exit. Some turns its very acceptable amount and very controlled. In other turns it is less than desirable (for me) and i like to have a little more control over it which the thumb brake gives me.

Enchanter said:
Controlling wheelies: check.
Controlling wheel-spin: check.

Using it to prevent TC from engaging seems weird to me, I stated as much, and I’m not getting much in further discussion in that regard.

I just reread the thread, and discovered that I confused the OP with the poster that uses it to prevent TC engaging. That definitely contributed to some of my confusion.

Controversial? Yeah, I’d agree. I’m attempting to gain understanding of the process/ technique. I apologize if I came across opposite of that.

To be clear, I’m a rear brake proponent on the street and use it almost 99% of the time. On the track I use it when I have the bandwidth to do so. Sometimes I can’t use it effectively so I stop while working on other bits of info and skill. Once I’ve gotten better at those, I try to bring the rear brake into the equation again.
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Using the rear brake a lot more is something i attribute to making me a faster rider.

90% of my rear brake use is on entry. Perhaps its a bit of a placebo, and i think as i get faster and more precise i may use it even less if at all. But it is a great safety net to have for when you do need it.
 
FourThreeSix

FourThreeSix

Tall Guy on a Little Bike
I think it's controversial in the track world because the average track rider and even club racer has a difficult time applying it properly. I used it for a bit when I first started track riding due to my motocross background. It bit me, I ended up locking it up, and collecting someone. I stopped for 2 or 3 years and am starting ease back into it now. Higher-powered bike at a much faster pace has proved its use beneficial to me, but I'm sure there are plenty of folks going faster without its use. Different strokes...
 
Holeshot

Holeshot

Super Moderator
Staff member
stangmx13 said:
the rear brake is always controversial for no good reason. IMO, some ppl understand how the tool can be used and chose to do so or not. some ppl don't and make a huge fuss about it.
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Well, what else are people gonna noodle out about on BARF? To each's own...As riders go through their epochs, they may use/ discontinue/ use the rear brake. Just don't Skadooski me and I'm good!

FourThreeSix said:
I think it's controversial in the track world because the average track rider and even club racer has a difficult time applying it properly. I used it for a bit when I first started track riding due to my motocross background. It bit me, I ended up locking it up, and collecting someone. I stopped for 2 or 3 years and am starting ease back into it now. Higher-powered bike at a much faster pace has proved its use beneficial to me, but I'm sure there are plenty of folks going faster without its use. Different strokes...
Click to expand...

That thing is my "off road" brake, if ever needed. That and the "Oh fuck...I'm gonna run into the back of this guy"..and then you're all over it like bird shit on a hot black car.
 
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