Track skills vs. street skills

[louemc]

the street, unlike the track, is not a controlled environment.
Those things will all help you survive some situations. It only takes one weird combination of stuff - let's say [choose one only, please] loose gravel/sand/leaves/antifreeze/oil/diesel/water (yes, water) all the way across your side of the road in the middle of a decreasing radius blind corner that you're excellent skills allow you to take at, say, 50 mph, which is double the posted 25mph (I know you can do it) - and a dually pickup pulling a 5th wheel camper coming the other way with only a couple wheels over the double yellow, crawling up a hill. And you're doing 50. Think you're going to back 'er in, like you would on your dirt bike? Throw some roost on the exit? No. You're not. Newtonian physics will take over and things will get ugly from there. Hubris and motorcycling do not go well together - at least not for very long.

Be safe out there.

That all gets canceled out by looking. Your describing things that can be seen, and fast guys have gotten that way by seeing in a way slower guys never do. It's a mental discipline. ZX-10 has a long history, Trust me, hazards dealt with, are that history. That history is also one of knowing when to slow down, and when you can do something else. It's a rapid changing thing in the un-controled public street/road/highway. Some can do it, some can't.

Watch the Isle of Man front runners, They can because that is what they do. It isn't something that just happens on Race day, it is what they do, as a way of life.

When the shit hits the fan because of (more often than not) the close quarters action of a vehicle driven by a distracted or really un-qualified to drive, driver. The action required to avoid that vehicle is exactly the action that was developed in the history that ZX-10 has.

But whether it (the shit that hit the fan) is a road surface condition or heavy metal in the wrong, The skills ZX-10 is talking about are the ones that save the day.

 

[ThinkFast]

That all gets canceled out by looking. Your describing things that can be seen, and fast guys have gotten that way by seeing in a way slower guys never do. It's a mental discipline.

Wow - I guess I need to learn how to see around blind corners then.

:hand

 

[zx10]

That all gets canceled out by looking. Your describing things that can be seen, and fast guys have gotten that way by seeing in a way slower guys never do. It's a mental discipline. ZX-10 has a long history, Trust me, hazards dealt with, are that history. That history is also one of knowing when to slow down, and when you can do something else. It's a rapid changing thing in the un-controled public street/road/highway. Some can do it, some can't.

Watch the Isle of Man front runners, They can because that is what they do. It isn't something that just happens on Race day, it is what they do, as a way of life.

Beautifully said my friend

I'm not saying I'm nicky haden guys and I'm not the fastest guy out on the streets at all. There are plenty of people I ride with that are faster than me. I'm just saying after all these years of practicing going as fast as possible you build a mental stamina just like louemc said. Downshifting leaning braking etc is all second nature in every form to me now. Now I focus my attention on the turn and believe me I do constantly scan for issues in the road. Its amazing what you can train your body to do. I can't tell you how many times I've seen gravel and instead of standing the bike up and riding right through it like a lot of people do (target fixation) I will immedeatly gas lean and make an effective new line. Its just after time.

And my god dude for those of you that bitch an moan about objects on the street. I NEVER heaar you talking about mx riding. There is a reason my crf450 goes 100mph. And it is not uncomon to go 65 mph. Or say 50mph through a burm. Do you think were just out in a completley controlled enviornment? No dude there's trees. Rivers. Snow. Lakes. Unforseen ponds. Trees trees and more tree. Deer. Wild boars. Wooden and metal fences. Etc..

Now I know the reason most of you don't go putting 2 and 2 together like that is because you've never touched a dirtbike in your life. Go spend some time on a dirtbike if you're still scared about street obstacles. You will immedeatly learn to perform all riding fundamentals without thinking just doing. And spend the rest of your time looking out for cliffs. Boulders quads going the wrong way. Etc.. so please don't tell me about avoiding objects though guys I sincerley believe I've avoided way more and way worse than any of the pussy footer street riders.

 

[louemc]

Wow - I guess I need to learn how to see around blind corners then.

:hand

No, no one can see around blind corners (or through solid objects like rock walls), it's something else.

 

[canyonrat]

Am I allowed to say anything? :laughing

I agree with ZX10. Practice skills at the track and execute them on the street. BUT always practice skills. (When was the last time you practiced 100mph emergency braking?) Street is dangerous but also know that many crashes occur at the track with injuries requiring ambulance and helicopter medical transportation. I think the major factor for fast street riders not crashing is not speed but skill. ALL the great fast riders up here in the north bay have rarely or never crashed on the street. (Disclaimer: when we were all "learning" to ride we crashed, and fairly regularly).

 

[zx10]

Am I allowed to say anything? :laughing

I agree with ZX10. Practice skills at the track and execute them on the street. BUT always practice skills. (When was the last time you practiced 100mph emergency braking?) Street is dangerous but also know that many crashes occur at the track with injuries requiring ambulance and helicopter medical transportation. I think the major factor for fast street riders not crashing is not speed but skill. ALL the great fast riders up here in the north bay have rarely or never crashed on the street. (Disclaimer: when we were all "learning" to ride we crashed, and fairly regularly).

Yeah agree 100%

And man you'd be suprised I actually do practice brakin like that! Not always at 100 but sometimes. Usually I get to 75 80 on the freeway and start picking out object like a light pole and as long as no one is behind me practice hitting the front and rear without locking the rear and bringing the back wheel up. I've been doing that excercise for a while now and it helped me build a lot of confidence in utizizing all braking at once. Latley I've been trying it with powering down gears too. Not helping as much as I thought it would but nontheless every second counts.

Again I DO NOT DO THIS WITH CARS NEAR ME so no flaming on that note.

 

[MrBeckman]

Yeah agree 100%

And man you'd be suprised I actually do practice brakin like that! Not always at 100 but sometimes. Usually I get to 75 80 on the freeway and start picking out object like a light pole and as long as no one is behind me practice hitting the front and rear without locking the rear and bringing the back wheel up. I've been doing that excercise for a while now and it helped me build a lot of confidence in utizizing all braking at once. Latley I've been trying it with powering down gears too. Not helping as much as I thought it would but nontheless every second counts.

Again I DO NOT DO THIS WITH CARS NEAR ME so no flaming on that note.

Back brake? hmmm ok I dont use the back brake for stopping I guess it works for some people. Be safe out there :ride

 

[GAJ]

Don't know about the riding conditions near San Jose where ZX10 rides, but up here there are few wide open areas with good sightlines to regularly triple the speed limit...not to mention the for crap state of Sonoma County roads.

Up here an SM that won't even hit 100mph makes for a heck of a lot of fast fun on the back roads.

Horses for courses.

As for Track Schools; often the fastest guy out there is on some relatively humble equipment.

I think they like it that way.

 

[louemc]

ZX-10 and CanyonRat put more heck, more lot of, more fast, more fun, into everywhere, including your Sonoma back roads.

 

[GAJ]

ZX-10 and CanyonRat put more heck, more lot of, more fast, more fun, into everywhere, including your Sonoma back roads.

And you've ridden with me, or them, exactly when? :wtf

Hell, you don't even live in the Bay Area for crying out loud.

CanyonRat lives in the same town I do; if he wants to disagree with my assessment that a DRZ400SM is a great bike from around here, fair enough...but he hasn't.

 

[Lizi_Wesson]

imho track time, trials bike time, and flattrack time are invaluable, and fundamental to good street riding.

 

[louemc]

imho track time, trials bike time, and flattrack time are invaluable, and fundamental to good street riding.

Now that's what we're Talkin about :thumbup And Welcome to BARF Lizi :cool

 

[BlackNinjaZX10]

Back brake? hmmm ok I dont use the back brake for stopping I guess it works for some people. Be safe out there :ride

Using your rear brake takes skills and many years of practice. I love using my rear brake and throttle with one another to shoot past any thing that is infront of me. Track of course Anyhow, It can be used very effectively in traffic or just to get alittle more down low to wholeshot it out of trouble:laughing When I started riding I usually just used the front brake. Another reason to use your rear is to save some of your front brake pads. You really should get used to your rear locking up. Brake time is much better especially on the straight. But, up in the twisties or the track you probabley won't use your rear brake as often. It is very important to always be safe on the track or on the streets. In a safe environment simple drills are always what it should be. I have only ridden twisties, city, and freeway driving. Never had the chance to hit the track, but I am sure it would be fun to let it all hang out. I am sure you would learn how to ride even better at an amazing rate. Even though, I have never raced on the track. I would believe that street would be a whole different game. Maybe even harder then track. I am sure track is more fun though :teeth

 

[RRrider]

Very interesting debate. New to the area. Last month did my first track day with Keith Code at CSS...hella fun. I'm finding my street riding in the twisties getting faster. Mainly because I take each turn with lean angle to spare to avoid nasty surprises....but I'm getting comfortable with more and more lean angle, and that of course comes with more and more speed. Surprises around corners however are less and less tolerant of speed. So now I'm getting ready to do a regular track time to see what effect that has....

 

[horsepower]

For me, after doing enough trackdays, I've found that my track skills are definitely exclusive of my street skills, and vice versa.

After awhile, it became even more evident how much different the two disciplines are. Simultaneously, it made me realize what is truly the appropriate type of riding in the street in order to fully enjoy it without the heightened consequences.

More important than being glad at track riding for teaching me proper riding techniques, I'm more grateful to track riding for teaching me to be one of the most humble, cognizant, and disciplined rider on the streets, especially in the twisties.

Ditto!.... except I'd replace humble, aware and disciplined for slow, zen, cautious..... and fearful of deer!

 

[MellowYellow]

after my first season of AFM - I am conflicted about this whole street vs track thing. some things translate others dont. You learn what the bike can do on the track and you become comfortable with new found speed- but that is not always a good thing for the street. Street you need more smooth approach looking for the cleanest line not the best race line and you only deal with 12 feet of pavement.
When I would go for a street ride then get on the track I just keep noticing the little bad habbits you pick up that slow you on the track.


And yes for a lot of very fun roads in sonoma/mendo/lake counties a SM is an awsome tool. Or any long travel bike. Skaggs spring road is not the only place to ride

 

[Ironbutt]

The difference between track and street?

10/10ths is potential track pace, if you're racing.. but no one really goes 10/10ths on a track day.. 7/10ths? Maybe.. so the street is what 5/10ths? max? in sprints 8/10ths?

The biggest difference is how much I have to hold back.. (other riders crashing into me is my biggest fear)

It would take me a few track days linked together to get let my 10/10th's out. as it is it takes me at least an hour to warm up to where I'll ride 6,7,8/th's.. and by that time the race is over.. :laughing or I'm where I'm going.

That's the problem with riding street vs track.. cause by the time I'm ready to go fast.. the race is over. hahaha..

 

[clutchslip]

I never learned anything on a track that was useful in safe street riding.

One problem with most track days is that everyone is just trying to go faster, with little regard for improving skills. Some aggressive track styles could make your street riding worse. My street skills do not transfer well to going fast on a track. I am "too" smooth for low lap times.

Reg Pridmore Class instruction actually focuses on street skills, not track skills. But that is rare.

 

[Enchanter]

I never learned anything on a track that was useful in safe street riding.

I have had the opposite experience.

Going to the track helped me have confidence in the actual capabilities of the motorcycle. It taught me just how hard I can brake in a fairly controlled environment. It taught me what the motorcycle feels like at the limit of traction (cornering or braking). Practicing (on track) finding my limits and the limits of the motorcycle have given me more knowledge and confidence in my abilities and the capabilities of the motorcycle. This knowledge can be useful should I find myself in a situation where I need to exploit those skills and abilities.

It taught me how to place the motorcycle exactly where I want it. It taught me the benefits of selecting the proper line for a given corner (i.e.: an early apex can contribute to wide exits.

 

[RRrider]

I have had the opposite experience.

Going to the track helped me have confidence in the actual capabilities of the motorcycle. It taught me just how hard I can brake in a fairly controlled environment. It taught me what the motorcycle feels like at the limit of traction (cornering or braking). Practicing (on track) finding my limits and the limits of the motorcycle have given me more knowledge and confidence in my abilities and the capabilities of the motorcycle. This knowledge can be useful should I find myself in a situation where I need to exploit those skills and abilities.

It taught me how to place the motorcycle exactly where I want it. It taught me the benefits of selecting the proper line for a given corner (i.e.: an early apex can contribute to wide exits.

:thumbup this is what I'm looking for!

And enchanter, if you are the Tim that taught me at my MSF class (you as the teacher being easier to remember than me as one of your 10,000+ students), then a) thanks! you were great and b) this is also what I took away from those movies of racers you showed.