Sonoma raceway lowside

[Holeshot]

Watched the video again, you're right. He totally lost the front.

My point with T3A is there's not a lot of opportunity to take away lean angle as you add throttle coming off the corner, and on a 600, you have to add a good squirt of throttle to get to T4 in any good time (as you know). I don't think anyone's dragging brakes up the hill, even on the flick.

EDIT: In short, I think we agree though; too much lean angle for too little heat in the tires.

 

[tzrider]

guh Andy, both quotes u presented are full of words that don't have concrete meanings, even w/ the context given. "cracking the throttle" & "steering" are so vague. the meaning u suggested is def not what they mean to me. no wonder y ppl are confused by that book.

This, in spite of all the definitions included in the book that used to piss people off. :laughing

For the purpose of the conversation, "cracking" the throttle on is initially opening it just enough to take up the driveline slack.

I agree that people have different ideas about what "steering" is. We can simplify it to mean whatever you did to put the bike on the line you want to ride. That really covers changing lean angle and waiting for the bike to be on line.

Those are the conditions that need to be met before opening the throttle makes sense. If we recall that rolling on the gas stabilizes the bike and know that a stable bike resists lean angle changes, it follows that the bike will be easier to steer when we are off the gas. And we don't want the bike holding its line until we're happy with the direction the bike is pointed.

 

[Holeshot]

Poor DJ.

Just remember, despite all the rest of the shit we're talking about; YOUR TIRES WERE COLD. Read Robert's post on how to get them further up to temp. It's a good one.

 

[thasmydjay]

Poor DJ.

Just remember, despite all the rest of the shit we're talking about; YOUR TIRES WERE COLD. Read Robert's post on how to get them further up to temp. It's a good one.

Haha! I enjoy reading all the posts. Thank you though, I will definitely keep that in mind.

 

[stangmx13]

This, in spite of all the definitions included in the book that used to piss people off. :laughing

For the purpose of the conversation, "cracking" the throttle on is initially opening it just enough to take up the driveline slack.

I agree that people have different ideas about what "steering" is. We can simplify it to mean whatever you did to put the bike on the line you want to ride. That really covers changing lean angle and waiting for the bike to be on line.

Those are the conditions that need to be met before opening the throttle makes sense. If we recall that rolling on the gas stabilizes the bike and know that a stable bike resists lean angle changes, it follows that the bike will be easier to steer when we are off the gas. And we don't want the bike holding its line until we're happy with the direction the bike is pointed.

I bet the book tried (tries?) to re-define a bunch of terms, which ppl didnt like :laughing

your definition of "cracked" and both quotes seem to ignore the concept of maintenance throttle (definition below). slower riders spend far more time at maintenance throttle than faster riders because they let off the brakes sooner. that means the suggested location to "crack and roll-on" is much sooner OR they are told to engine brake. the first suggestion is bad, the second isnt ideal. this "throttle technique" seems to setup slower riders for failure. on top of that, there are 1-2 corners on most tracks that require waiting at maintenance throttle. im sure there are more parts in the book that cover this. but its really shitty when the first thing that ppl remember is a bad idea in some situations.

I don't like equating steering to lean angle or line changes AND suggesting to throttle after steering because I def steer out of a corner. I use the bars and my legs to impart lean angle changes after starting my drive. just another asterisk to small quotes that don't tell the whole story... a big problem w/ teaching riding through the internet :laughing

maintenance throttle == throttle that causes a motorcycle to maintain its speed

 

[tzrider]

maintenance throttle == throttle that causes a motorcycle to maintain its speed

I can't address everything as I'm getting ready for a trip, but wanted to note that "maintenance throttle" is a term that came into vogue long after ToTWII was published. It describes exactly the same thing as a slow roll-on, as that's what it takes to maintain speed.

 

[stangmx13]

I can't address everything as I'm getting ready for a trip, but wanted to note that "maintenance throttle" is a term that came into vogue long after ToTWII was published. It describes exactly the same thing as a slow roll-on, as that's what it takes to maintain speed.

no worries. no rush on this good convo.

I figured it was a newer term. I think I first saw it on BARF sometimes in the mid-2000s.

I wouldn't say they describe "exactly the same thing". a "roll-on" doesn't have a defined end. it could end at half throttle, at WOT, anything. if u told a rider to "slowly roll on the throttle", hopefully they'd ask, "how much?". theres no way that lack of definition doesn't cause some confusion.

in contrast, "maintenance throttle" is VERY specific. while it pretty much never means the same throttle %, it has a specific result. its also a very ez concept for ppl to grasp and its something thats very ez to do with your right hand. it might even be one of the first skills any rider actually masters... go through this corner without adjusting speed... done.

oh, I have no idea if you brought up "slow roll-on" in relation to your previous posts / quotes. if u did, im gonna be confused hehe.

 

[afm199]

OP: As you can see, there is more than one school of thought on track terminology and tactics.

What I suggest you take away from this thread is awareness about cold track, tire temperature, and the importance of getting heat into your tires. That's what brought your crash about. There are certainly areas to discuss about how you approach the track with technique, and how you describe it, but the important message here is the one about cold tires and going out with that in mind and a strategy to get heat into the tires and suspension.

I certainly urge you to attend a Keigwin event when Ken Hill is teaching, there is no added cost for that ( he attends many events a year, both schools ( higher cost) and trackdays, and teaches at both. )

 

[raymond_h2002]

Hey DJ! I pitted next to you in the garage during the weekend; it was nice meeting you! I saw you rolling in after you got picked up after the crash and wanted to chat with you more, but I thought it was best to give you your space. Glad you're seeking out advice here!

Something that's popularly discussed in motorsports is the traction circle, which you may want to google to read up on / watch videos. The ELI5 explanation is basically that you have vertical forces, which are accelerating and braking, and lateral, which turning left and right. For a given radius, as you're increasing the forces in one axis, you gotta let up on the other. Example, if you're braking and entering a turn, you gotta let off the brakes as you turn in... when you drive out, you gotta let off the turn as you throttle out.

I jumped around your 2nd video a bit and noticed that you were throttling in some places that could have gotten you into trouble, notably on turn-ins in 8 / esses. My heart stopped for a few seconds here and there, as a few of those moments could have potentially led to a crash.

The pace dictates the margin for error, and so when you start going faster you have less room for mistakes. My advice is to slow down and work on fundamentals like when to brake, when to accelerate, and how smoothly you go about doing each. From what i've seen, those areas need some refinement for the pace you are trying to carry. It sucks to hear this because you see other people going faster and it's easy to think, man, I can do what they're doing and probably more! That's what was going through my head when I started breaking out of C-group and into B. Riders in A group aren't faster just because they're twisting the throttle and grabbing the brakes harder... it's all the in-between nuances that support their consistency and create the opportunity for speed. It's important to develop technique that is scaleable in a safe manner.

Hope to see you soon!

 

[stangmx13]

Something that's popularly discussed in motorsports is the traction circle, which you may want to google to read up on / watch videos. The ELI5 explanation is basically that you have vertical forces, which are accelerating and braking, and lateral, which turning left and right. For a given radius, as you're increasing the forces in one axis, you gotta let up on the other. Example, if you're braking and entering a turn, you gotta let off the brakes as you turn in... when you drive out, you gotta let off the turn as you throttle out.

unfortunately, the traction circle is an oversimplification and especially isnt valid for braking. its a good "newb" concept that might help some people learn. but as u get faster, it becomes more and more invalid and u need to forget it.

front brake application loads the front tire a lot and increases the size of the contact patch. this increases grip. so, holding some brake even at max lean allows u to go faster. Ive prob had at least 60% brake pressure with my knee on the ground into some corners and ~20% at max lean angle.... and im 2-3 seconds off lap records. WSBK & MA pros likely hold more brake pressure later into the corner. they do trail, but not enough to make a traction circle a valid concept. so be careful w/ taking this concept as gospel.

funny story... every time ive tucked the front in the past 2 years, i was off the brakes. yet on later laps, id go through that same corner faster while still holding the brakes and not crash.

 

[thasmydjay]

Hey DJ! I pitted next to you in the garage during the weekend; it was nice meeting you! I saw you rolling in after you got picked up after the crash and wanted to chat with you more, but I thought it was best to give you your space. Glad you're seeking out advice here!

Something that's popularly discussed in motorsports is the traction circle, which you may want to google to read up on / watch videos. The ELI5 explanation is basically that you have vertical forces, which are accelerating and braking, and lateral, which turning left and right. For a given radius, as you're increasing the forces in one axis, you gotta let up on the other. Example, if you're braking and entering a turn, you gotta let off the brakes as you turn in... when you drive out, you gotta let off the turn as you throttle out.

I jumped around your 2nd video a bit and noticed that you were throttling in some places that could have gotten you into trouble, notably on turn-ins in 8 / esses. My heart stopped for a few seconds here and there, as a few of those moments could have potentially led to a crash.

The pace dictates the margin for error, and so when you start going faster you have less room for mistakes. My advice is to slow down and work on fundamentals like when to brake, when to accelerate, and how smoothly you go about doing each. From what i've seen, those areas need some refinement for the pace you are trying to carry. It sucks to hear this because you see other people going faster and it's easy to think, man, I can do what they're doing and probably more! That's what was going through my head when I started breaking out of C-group and into B. Riders in A group aren't faster just because they're twisting the throttle and grabbing the brakes harder... it's all the in-between nuances that support their consistency and create the opportunity for speed. It's important to develop technique that is scaleable in a safe manner.

Hope to see you soon!

Raymond! Nice meeting you too man, I appreciate the feedback. I will definitely look into that concept and approach my riding differently after all the information on this thread.

 

[thasmydjay]

So would the reason why I would not want to add throttle and lean angle at the same time would be because if I do so, it takes away contact patch and causes me to lose the front? Which is what happened during my crash along with the tires/suspension/track being cold?

However, maintenance throttle or trail braking causes a consistent contact patch while turning in?

 

[afm199]

funny story... every time ive tucked the front in the past 2 years, i was off the brakes. yet on later laps, id go through that same corner faster while still holding the brakes and not crash.

I don't think I have ever crashed a bike on the brakes and trailing into a corner. I certainly have off the brakes and into a corner.

 

[tzrider]

So would the reason why I would not want to add throttle and lean angle at the same time would be because if I do so, it takes away contact patch and causes me to lose the front? Which is what happened during my crash along with the tires/suspension/track being cold?

However, maintenance throttle or trail braking causes a consistent contact patch while turning in?

The more common issue with adding lean angle and throttle at the same time is sliding the rear. Both adding lean and adding throttle increase the demand for traction at the rear. Doing both at the same time makes the demand increase faster and if you have a slide, it's harder to tell what caused it.

Also, being on the gas stabilizes the bike. A stable bike is harder to steer; not what you want at the turn entry.

 

[stangmx13]

So would the reason why I would not want to add throttle and lean angle at the same time would be because if I do so, it takes away contact patch and causes me to lose the front? Which is what happened during my crash along with the tires/suspension/track being cold?

However, maintenance throttle or trail braking causes a consistent contact patch while turning in?

pretty much

from a conceptual level, we try not to add throttle and lean angle at the same time for two reason.
1. because its too many changes at the same time to predict the outcome.
2. because its usually the slow way around the track.
so its risky and slow, giving us no reason to do it*

from a technical level, acceleration can shift weight rearwards and reduce the contact patch. but a lot of that depends on the setup of the moto and how much acceleration. its very hard to say technically what happened in your crash.

the cool thing about riding at maintenance throttle or while trail braking is that there are fewer unknowns. at maintenance throttle, the contact patch doesn't shrink add lean angle, it grows a tiny bit. and if u do it slow enough, u get feedback in the bars and could catch a slide. while trail braking, you are controlling the size of the contact patch with the front brake and we know that it must be larger than at maintenance throttle. all those knowns are good things too, which is y these are great tools for riding around a track.

*ive been to 10 tracks and can think of 1 or 2 spots where I add throttle and lean angle at the same time. both of them are a slower corner that leads directly into a faster corner. for ex, T2 at Fontana. T1 is an ess that ends with a right, leading directly into the left T2. T1 is slower and I know I can go full throttle in 4th or 5th through T2 on a 600. so I smoothly go WOT while putting the bike on my left knee. since its so fast, maintenance throttle is prob at least 60% throttle. so adding that extra throttle isnt too much more power. but I def didnt do that the first few sessions around that track :laughing. liter bikes do high side here thanks to what tzrider just said above ^^.

 

[raymond_h2002]

Robert / stangmx13 -

Thanks for the updated info on the traction circle!

Regarding throttle/lean angle being added at the same time in very few places, would you also do it at the transition from exiting 11 into 12/13 at Thill? I'm terribly slow coming out onto the back straight and a lot of it I think comes from being timid about getting on the gas sooner.

-Raymond

 

[stangmx13]

Im not sure. it does seem like ud need to into T12. but I don't have enough laps around Thill to know off hand. im sure other ppl in this thread could tell u what they do.

 

[afm199]

Robert / stangmx13 -

Thanks for the updated info on the traction circle!

Regarding throttle/lean angle being added at the same time in very few places, would you also do it at the transition from exiting 11 into 12/13 at Thill? I'm terribly slow coming out onto the back straight and a lot of it I think comes from being timid about getting on the gas sooner.

-Raymond

Ideally you'd start to stand up from T11, rolling into the throttle hard when you are pointed properly, back off and turn into T12 maintaining throttle, and then start winding on just past the apex of T13 and carry the drive to the edge of the track. I get the front end into the air exiting T11 if I am hurrying. I don't add throttle and lean angle simultaneously. Here's a hint: T13 is an exit corner. It's all about getting the best exit, which means apexing T13 and getting the bike upright asap while rolling into the gas. You need to use ALL the track to do this. If that's not clear, the exit at T13 is where you start to pick the bike up, at that point you start to roll the throttle on. That's the best way to remember when to roll on. As you begin to take away lean angle you begin to roll on throttle. The bike doesn't have to be upright to get it pinned, not at all. It just has to be off the edge of the tire. That's the danger zone. Watch MotoGP, you'll see this time after time, start roll, pick up bike a bit and then smoothly roll into full throttle, if that's the exit that has room.

 

[raymond_h2002]

Thanks for your advice Ernie!

Sorry DJ for hijacking this thread; back to Sonoma discussion

 

[afm199]

Thanks for your advice Ernie!

Sorry DJ for hijacking this thread; back to Sonoma discussion

:thumbup

I reread my description, it's not great. The rolloff of throttle entering T12 is not a shutoff, it's just a slight rolloff. Once you get into the throttle standing up from T11, you are in it all the way to the bridge.