Sonoma raceway lowside

thasmydjay

Well-known member
Hello BARF,

Here is a video of my lowside on the out lap. This happened at about 2:40 PM this past Sunday, it was a pretty cold weekend. I'm not too sure what I did wrong, maybe it was a combination of different factors? I was running tire warmers and my tires are supercorsas. I am a C group rider, so that's that. Thanks in advance for your input!:thumbup

https://youtu.be/mgYxZNo8FGk
 

stangmx13

not Stan
this looks like a pretty simple one actually. u kept adding throttle while adding lean angle in an attempt to turn more and accelerate at the same time. its a common mistake that ull want to correct asap. finish the turn first, then accelerate. ull go faster and be safer.

a few other related things and contributing factors...
- u did the same thing the turn before... coasted into the corner, then started accelerating while still adding lean angle. "accelerating through the corner" is an ok street technique, but a terrible track one. normally I wouldn't nit-pick an out lap so much, but ya.
- tires can lose A LOT of heat when its cold, windy, u sit on the grid, u are cruising around, etc. u didnt brake hard before crashing. so really, the entire start of the vid to the crash is the front tire losing heat. if it was warm and u weren't on your out-lap, u probably could have done that and not crashed. but that doesn't really matter. we always must ride within the grip of the tires.
- the crest in the track didnt help, but only by a tiny bit.
- your out lap is a great time to do some hard braking and hard accelerating with almost no lean angle. thats the best way to heat tires and it gets u around the track safely and quickly.
 
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thasmydjay

Well-known member
this looks like a pretty simple one actually. u kept adding throttle while adding lean angle in an attempt to turn more and accelerate at the same time. its a common mistake that ull want to correct asap. finish the turn first, then accelerate. ull go faster and be safer.

a few other related things and contributing factors...
- u did the same thing the turn before... coasted into the corner, then started accelerating while still adding lean angle. "accelerating through the corner" is an ok street technique, but a terrible track one. normally I wouldn't nit-pick an out lap so much, but ya.
- tires can lose A LOT of heat when its cold, windy, u sit on the grid, u are cruising around, etc. u didnt brake hard before crashing. so really, the entire start of the vid to the crash is the front tire losing heat. if it was warm and u weren't on your out-lap, u probably could have done that and not crashed. but that doesn't really matter. we always must ride within the grip of the tires.
- the crest in the track didnt help, but only by a tiny bit.
- your out lap is a great time to do some hard braking and hard accelerating with almost no lean angle. thats the best way to heat tires and it gets u around the track safely and quickly.

Hey, thanks for the info. So I shouldn’t mix adding lean angle and accelerating, but rather keep maintanence throttle while establishing lean then once I am at the point of correct lean angle I begin to accelerate? In Twist of The Wrist 2 it says that the throttle should be rolled on “evenly and smoothly throughout the remainder of the turn.” Does that mean any acceleration while turning or going through the turn? Sorry, I’m a little confused.
 

dottore

Pilot in command
Hello BARF,

Here is a video of my lowside on the out lap. This happened at about 2:40 PM this past Sunday, it was a pretty cold weekend. I'm not too sure what I did wrong, maybe it was a combination of different factors? I was running tire warmers and my tires are supercorsas. I am a C group rider, so that's that. Thanks in advance for your input!:thumbup

https://youtu.be/mgYxZNo8FGk

Couple of thoughts —

1. I think you were going way too hot for an out lap, even on warmers. I would aim for 70-80% of this speed, especially in Feb at Sonoma. (You can go a little harder in August when the track is 90F by 10am. :))

2. The best way to get heat in your tires is hard acceleration and braking. You haven’t really done that yet, so the tires are still quite cold.

3. You tried to add lean angle and power at the same time. This is a recipe for falling over. I think of the turn mechanics like this: turns start with steering input. A smooth transition occurs somewhere in the corner between braking and maintenance throttle. Once you see the exit, point the bike at it with power. More power = wider, less power = keep it tighter.

If you haven’t read “Sport Riding Techniques” I recommend picking it up. Great read.

Hope you’re okay!
 

Holeshot

Super Moderator
Staff member
on the out lap? Cold tires. I disagree with the other guys on where to add power out of 3A...you can add throttle over the crest of the hill, but not on your outlap and probably not as much as normal in February, IME.

It'll take about 1-2 laps to get heat into your tires...the slower of a pace you run, the less heat you're going to put into the tires (with less flex on the carcass). Keep in mind that a faster pace rider may be putting more heat into their tires quicker.

Anyway...Cold tires. It sucks.
 

Hammerstime

Well-known member
It looks like body position could have been a factor also. In every corner your head moves to the inside as your going through the turn. You want to set your body/head position before the turn.
 

afm199

Well-known member
Hello BARF,

Here is a video of my lowside on the out lap. This happened at about 2:40 PM this past Sunday, it was a pretty cold weekend. I'm not too sure what I did wrong, maybe it was a combination of different factors? I was running tire warmers and my tires are supercorsas. I am a C group rider, so that's that. Thanks in advance for your input!:thumbup

https://youtu.be/mgYxZNo8FGk

Outlap? I was surprised you made it as far as you did. You went out wayyyyyyyyyyy to fast and aggressively. You were in third gear before the end of the hot pits. That's a huge no no.

Don't go out fast on an outlap, tire warmers or no. Particularly at Sonoma, which is slippery as can be on a cold day.

Here's an invaluable resource. Listen to all of them. https://soundcloud.com/ken-hill-534763963

What happened was cold tires ( tire warmers don't bring your tires to the temp they need, they just warm them.) You exit at 3a was far too aggressive on the throttle.

The best thing you can take out of this is to use the first lap ( or two) to get heat into your tires and suspension.
 
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afm199

Well-known member
Thanks everyone for the input. Are there any additional sources of information you all recommend about the basics of throttle control, when to add lean angle, etc.?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvGc1tWPeb0&t=49s

This video is of the session prior, any tips on what else I should work on?

I really appreciate it fellas.

You are missing all of your apexes by feet.

Apexes are mandatory, not optional.

Until you get your lines under control you are stuck where you are. Lines first. Don't worry about lean angle, body position, get your lines under control.

You're not afraid to get into the throttle and wind it out, that's good. You do need to work on bike placement. Above everything else.

Here's a vid of Ken at the same track, might help give you an idea of proper lines. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-JyhCHFarg
 
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Honey Badger

...iz a girl
I watched it without sound (at work) you definitely got hard on the throttle while adding a fair bit of lean. Kind of a classic way to low side, especially with as cold as that track was this weekend.

As to the advice in ToTW, that is one of the things that they talk about that gets a lot of riders into trouble (myself included when I started riding). I don't think it's okay on the street or track or anywhere, at least not in the way it's explained. Talking to some of the people who teach there, what they are trying to say and what is being understood tend to be two different things.

afm199 posted up the Ken Hill podcasts. Start listening and taking notes. Invaluable resource that Ken has been generous enough to put out there for free for all riders to glean knowledge from.

Oh, another point of advice - tire warmers ONLY warm up the rubber. They don't warm up your suspension, body, or anything else. Those things still take time to warm up, so regardless of tire warmers, your out lap still needs to be a bit more relaxed so everything else can get warmed up too.
 

stangmx13

not Stan
that out-lap was def an A-group out-lap (speed, not skill) run by a C-group rider. but hold up. lets not make the mistake of telling someone to slow down on their out-lap without being more specific. a C group rider is already going to have a hard enough time keep heat in the tires during winter. lets not make it harder by suggesting they go slower.... which will probably cool off their tires.

u should go as FAST as possible on all the straights of an out-lap. then, brake EARLY and HARD for every corner that u can. slow down to ~50% of your normal corner speed and take the corner. then, wait for the exit until u have minimal lean angle and roll on the throttle HARD and smooth. your roll on should take about 1 full second.

this is the fastest and safest way to heat your tires on out-laps. anything less, like coasting into corners, just cools off your tires. anything more like what happened in the video is just risky.
 

stangmx13

not Stan
Hey, thanks for the info. So I shouldn’t mix adding lean angle and accelerating, but rather keep maintanence throttle while establishing lean then once I am at the point of correct lean angle I begin to accelerate?

no not rly. its very ez to get to (your) max lean and ull probably do that before you even get to the apex of the corner. rolling on the throttle before the apex of the corner is too early in almost all corners. ull either run wide or be forced to add more lean angle if u did this.

your acceleration should be timed with your placement on track. stay at maintenance throttle until you've turned enough and are in a position to exit the corner. you want to have turned enough so that u can roll-on and subtract lean angle as u do it.

remember, as u accelerate, your turning radius will increase which sends you to the outside of the track. inexperienced riders incorrectly add more lean angle to counteract this and/or they slow their throttle roll-on. both are incorrect and slow. waiting just a split second longer with maintenance throttle, then rolling-on smooth and hard at the correct time ends up being safer and faster.

In Twist of The Wrist 2 it says that the throttle should be rolled on “evenly and smoothly throughout the remainder of the turn.” Does that mean any acceleration while turning or going through the turn? Sorry, I’m a little confused.

the concept of rolling on the throttle through the entire corner is just wrong on the track. some of the techniques in that book are very old. listen to Ken Hill's podcasts instead.

a pro rider will accelerate any time they aren't braking in most corners, as that quote somewhat suggests. however, they braked all the way to the apex. they turned A LOT while braking and have their bike pointed to the exit. and they definitely remove lean angle while doing that acceleration. u didnt do any of those things, so u shouldn't have rolled on the throttle yet.
 
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stangmx13

not Stan
Thanks everyone for the input. Are there any additional sources of information you all recommend about the basics of throttle control, when to add lean angle, etc.?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvGc1tWPeb0&t=49s

This video is of the session prior, any tips on what else I should work on?

I really appreciate it fellas.

if u come into a corner and find that u are going too slow... tough shit :laughing. the mistake was over-braking. trying to speed back up early in the corner can be a bad idea. no need to compound one mistake with another. try to remember how fast u were going and how much u braked, then do it better next lap.

u should use more of the track on some exits. T2 and T11 for sure. most times through T2, u stay right on the exit. why?!?! it took a lot of unnecessary lean angle on corner exit to do this.

your transitions are late. every time u go through the esses or a chicane, u are fine on the first apex but completely miss the ones after. this means that your inputs to flip the bike are late. pre-empt the next turn with your inputs, try not to react after the previous turn.

theres more stuff, but no need to overload u. def watch that Ken Hill lap for more tips.
 

j5m

Well-known member
the concept of rolling on the throttle through the entire corner is just wrong on the track. some of the techniques in that book are very old.

As to the advice in ToTW, that is one of the things that they talk about that gets a lot of riders into trouble (myself included when I started riding). I don't think it's okay on the street or track or anywhere, at least not in the way it's explained. Talking to some of the people who teach there, what they are trying to say and what is being understood tend to be two different things.

Yeah, I did their two day school last year and what they teach there aligns with what people are saying here.

Though, in the context of the school and Laguna Seca, maintenance throttle wasn't at all a thing you were supposed to be doing.
 
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Holeshot

Super Moderator
Staff member
You are missing all of your apexes by feet.

Apexes are mandatory, not optional.

Ernie's spot on here. When you miss apexes, you essentially make a different track out of the track you're on. That means lean angle changes, acceleration points change...the whole track changes. My common comment to riders "well that was a nice track you were just riding...now let's ride "insert track name we're at" for the first time today".

that out-lap was def an A-group out-lap (speed, not skill) run by a C-group rider. but hold up. lets not make the mistake of telling someone to slow down on their out-lap without being more specific. a C group rider is already going to have a hard enough time keep heat in the tires during winter. lets not make it harder by suggesting they go slower.... which will probably cool off their tires.

u should go as FAST as possible on all the straights of an out-lap. then, brake EARLY and HARD for every corner that u can. slow down to ~50% of your normal corner speed and take the corner. then, wait for the exit until u have minimal lean angle and roll on the throttle HARD and smooth. your roll on should take about 1 full second.

this is the fastest and safest way to heat your tires on out-laps. anything less, like coasting into corners, just cools off your tires. anything more like what happened in the video is just risky.

Well explained Robert. One thing else to note: on a cold winter day, the track will actually pull heat from your tires the first lap or so. A track without heat is a not too much fun. Your comment on heavy braking and accelerations while straight up and down should be heeded by all trackday riders.

I watched it without sound (at work) you definitely got hard on the throttle while adding a fair bit of lean. Kind of a classic way to low side, especially with as cold as that track was this weekend.

Normally I'd agree with this comment, but it's not universal. The turn into T3A dictates that at pace, a rider is going to be carrying lean angle over the crest. Without that, there's no way to make the corner...hence the reason people end up on the dirt on the other side of the candy striped on the exit to T3A. This is one of the corners where a rider is adding throttle and lean angle and massively loading the rear tire. Hence the reason he lost the rear...cold tires, side of the tire, blah bleh, bang.
 

stangmx13

not Stan
Yeah, I did their two day school last year and what they teach there aligns with what people are saying here.

Though, in the context of the school and Laguna Seca, maintenance throttle wasn't at all a thing you were supposed to be doing.

T2 is the only corner at Laguna that requires some maintenance throttle IMO. all the other turns, even Rainey, u can brake to the apex and throttle out.
 
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stangmx13

not Stan
Normally I'd agree with this comment, but it's not universal. The turn into T3A dictates that at pace, a rider is going to be carrying lean angle over the crest. Without that, there's no way to make the corner...hence the reason people end up on the dirt on the other side of the candy striped on the exit to T3A. This is one of the corners where a rider is adding throttle and lean angle and massively loading the rear tire. Hence the reason he lost the rear...cold tires, side of the tire, blah bleh, bang.

I don't think he lost the rear. the rpms spike after the hes already lost it, not before.

in the vid posted above, Ken Hill doesn't add throttle and lean angle at the same time through T3A. he picks up the gas a little bit between 3 and 3A, but its not a hard acceleration. he also seems to load the front some while getting to the inside curb of 3A, suggesting he reduced to maintenance throttle or dragged the brakes. yes, hes driving over the crest. but hes removing lean angle coming off the inside curb. thats the part the OP didnt do. OP passed his apex, but kept adding lean angle afterwards.

if a rider needs to add lots of throttle before the apex of T3A, I bet they took T3 too slowly.
 

tzrider

Write Only User
Staff member
In Twist of The Wrist 2 it says that the throttle should be rolled on “evenly and smoothly throughout the remainder of the turn.” Does that mean any acceleration while turning or going through the turn? Sorry, I’m a little confused.

You're getting some answers to this question that reflect a misunderstanding of the "throttle control rule," as it was written in ToTWII. The book covered the topic well enough to work with but there is additional information not called out in writing that CSS emphasizes more in briefings today.

This is the quote that we're talking about, verbatim:

Once the throttle is cracked on. it is rolled on evenly, smoothly, and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn

Every word in the quote matters. People seem to gloss over "Once the throttle is cracked on," and conclude that the instruction is to roll on the gas through the whole turn. Taking that phrase into account however, we see that the matter of when we crack the throttle on is still unexplained.

Chapter 5 of the book addresses the "when." Chapter 5 starts off with a phrase that has tended to stick in people's minds: "as soon as possible." Unfortunately, the key phrase that relates to precise throttle timing is at the end of a later paragraph. My experience is that people gloss over it. Here is the paragraph:

There are some additional guidelines. Normally, riders don't get
back onto the throttle until after the steering is completed. This makes
sense. During the steering process, it is very difficult to work back into the
throttle smoothly enough to keep it from jerking the bike and upsetting it,
To meet the throttle standard, steering is completed before you start to
get it on.

The bold above is as found in the book. This is crucial to understanding that the rules of throttle control apply no matter whether you trail brake or finish your braking before the turn and flick the bike. The steering (lean angle change) must be completed before you crack the gas on. This does agree with most of the input you're getting, in the sense that adding throttle and lean angle at the same time is not a good idea.

Finally, the detail that isn't spelled out in the book is this: Not only should the lean angle be set, but the bike should be on the line you want it on before you crack open the throttle.

Every now and then, a rider will crack on the gas before the bike is fully pointed and find himself running wide. Why? Rolling on the gas makes the bike tend to hold the line it's on. If you roll on before the bike is pointed, the bike will hold that line instead.

The location in the turn where you crack open the throttle will entirely depend on the rate at which you steer the bike.

This information is not out of date. Bikes still handle this way. "Being on the gas through the whole corner" isn't wrong because of any recent developments; it always was wrong.

With all of the above said, I don't think you crashed because you were on the gas. The front let go, which is quite consistent with crashing on cold tires. Between the temperature and the bike getting light at the top of the crest, the front slid.
 

stangmx13

not Stan
guh Andy, both quotes u presented are full of words that don't have concrete meanings, even w/ the context given. "cracking the throttle" & "steering" are so vague. the meaning u suggested is def not what they mean to me. no wonder y ppl are confused by that book.
 
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