Right hand turns

[Vin829]

For the life of me I can never get comfortable with right hand turns in the mountains. Couple reasons. Most right hand turns are blind. If there is gravel in the road most likely that side. If you happen to low side then you slide into on coming traffic. I’ve been a motorcyclist for 10+ years and still can’t feel comfortable. Any advice you can give will be greatly appreciated.

 

[DataDan]

The late Gary J, BARF's highly respected street sport riding guru, agreed with your perception of additional danger in right curves. See his 1Rider thread, RIP Stopper? - "Rights vs. Lefts: The 80% Rule For Survival". He advised "an additional level (20%+) of already existing respect and caution in setting the maximum pace at which you ride all righthand turns."

My preliminary advice (soon to be superseded by BARF's pool of actual experts ) would be to concentrate on how you're using your eyes on approach. You might find the technique of the Vanishing Point helpful. As sight distance into the turn shortens, continue to slow. Get back on the gas only when it begins to open up.

 

[danate]

Comfort in turns often relies on perceived speed and whether or not you feel it is too fast. Perception relies heavily on your vision, so if you are not able to see through the turn, you will tend to look at objects closer to you and feel as if you are going faster. Right hand turns in the hills often are blind as you are right up against the hillside, which creates this scenario often. The best answer, as always, is to slow your approach speed to where you are comfortable. This will be different in every turn as your vision will be different. Focusing on starting with a good entry speed and keeping your eyes as far towards the exit of the turn will maximize your comfort level.

Lane position is also important, as staying to the outside is preferable, but on a right hand turn the outside is also the DY and has the risk of oncoming vehicles. On blind turns I'll often prefer to slow down more and stick to the middle or even right hand side if I can't see what's coming the other way. Keep your vision set and your maintenance throttle (or trail-braking depending how comfortable you are with it) until you see the exit of the turn, then give it some gas to complete the turn.

Many people judge their speed based on the riders in front of them and I see plenty of riders who will just bomb into blind right hand turns. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean it's safe. Ride your own ride and work on your vision. It is the key to staying safe in the mountains because if you can't stop within the distance you can see, then you are opening yourself up for disaster.

 

[motomania2007]

Ditto Nate's advice.

I will add that you need to work on right hand turns more so put in more conscious effort into right turns.

 

[Gary856]

How much do you ride on twisty roads in those 10 years? You have to do it a lot, and really pay attention to what you do in each turn - what are you doing differently in left from right? You could sit on a chair at home and mimic the motion of left/right turns. Notice how you dip the shoulder, twist your torso, turn your head, shift the weight with your legs, bend your arms, and angle your wrists. What do you need to adjust to get symmetry? Pay attention every time you ride. Pick a twisty road - Mt Hamilton road with back to back turns is great for this.

 

[Maddevill]

Ill add a little note. Are you right handed ? Even on the track, a lot of right handed riders say they feel more uncomfortable in right hand turns. It could be due to the fact that your throttle and both brakes are on that side and arm and leg position is awkward. The main fix is practice.

Mad

 

[NoneMoreBlack]

Ditto all of the above, with one addition: the late-apex approach which I first learned about by reading David Hough.

As he thoroughly explains in that link, while late apex is a superior method in general, it is especially valuable in blind right-handers, as it 1) maximizes vision before entering the corner 2) puts you as far away from the double yellow at the exact spot where you are likely to encounter a DY-crosser and 3) minimizes the likelihood of running wide on exit should the corner's radius unexpectedly decrease.

If you read DataDan's vanishing point link above, you will see some discussion of how to think about your vision as you corner. This explains for me the reason I have to constantly remind myself of the delayed apex; as you look through a corner in preparation to navigate it, you are fighting your tendency to go where you look until the last possible second, before decisively initiating the turn. This is extensively covered in A Twist of the Wrist.

Overall, this is a drill I am running in my head constantly on a fun road, and especially in those right-handers.

 

[matjam]

Also, do it for left handers!

via Imgflip Meme Generator

 

[Vin829]

Ill add a little note. Are you right handed ? Even on the track, a lot of right handed riders say they feel more uncomfortable in right hand turns. It could be due to the fact that your throttle and both brakes are on that side and arm and leg position is awkward. The main fix is practice.

Mad

As a matter of fact I am right handed. Lots of great advice in this thread . Thank you all. Yes 10 years experience on a bike. But not a whole lot in the twisties. I will keep practicing. I just thought it was just me having trouble with right hand turns

 

[afm199]

As he thoroughly explains in that link, while late apex is a superior method in general, it is especially valuable in blind right-handers, as it 1) maximizes vision before entering the corner 2) puts you as far away from the double yellow at the exact spot where you are likely to encounter a DY-crosser and 3) minimizes the likelihood of running wide on exit should the corner's radius unexpectedly decrease.

s.

There is no superior method. Late apex corner entry is used for several different reasons, as is early/er apex entry. The upsides you mention are correct. The downsides are that it also places you in more danger as if there IS someone coming the other way, and you are on the far left of a right hand lane, in a right hand corner, you are more exposed. Lowering speed is a much better way of avoiding running wide. Some corners want and need an early turn in and apex, it depends on too many things to make a one fits all rule. Generally speaking, lowering speed in blind corners is a far superior method to realize safety.

 

[flying_hun]

There is no superior method. Late apex corner entry is used for several different reasons, as is early/er apex entry. The upsides you mention are correct. The downsides are that it also places you in more danger as if there IS someone coming the other way, and you are on the far left of a right hand lane, in a right hand corner, you are more exposed. Lowering speed is a much better way of avoiding running wide. Some corners want and need an early turn in and apex, it depends on too many things to make a one fits all rule. Generally speaking, lowering speed in blind corners is a far superior method to realize safety.

:thumbup

 

[ThinkFast]

First of all, kudos to you for asking the question.

As others have suggested, a late apex is generally your friend when you’re still building your seat time on corners. If you’re unsure about how to translate late apex into your actions on the bike, here’s another way to think about it.

On any corner - left or right - stay wide until you can see the exit of the corner and thus plan your apex. In doing this, you must plan ahead and adjust your speed so that you:
A) don’t run wide (into oncoming traffic on a right hander; off the road on a left hander).
B) can tighten your line at any time in order to avoid a hazard, or hit your desired apex.

So what does that mean in terms of entry speed? It means you must slow way down - sometimes more than you end up needing to - in order to achieve the above two points. Even if you don’t run wide, if you can’t tighten your line mid corner it means you’re going too fast. Slow down more!!

One of the biggest mistakes new riders (and some not so new riders) make is “charging” the corner. They are going in too fast and find they need to get off the throttle and sometimes brake all the way around the corner. This is *not* trail braking. This is blowing the corner.

You’re better off entering blind corners slower than you think you can go, and leaving yourself enough room to change line as needed. On tight mountain roads you might encounter oncoming big rig gravel trucks, 33’ RVs, dualies pulling 20’ horse trailers, etc. that come across the center line into your lane on your right hand corner. If you’re going so fast that you can’t change your line or even stand the bike up and stop, you’re going to be in trouble.

The speed will come to you with experience. Don’t charge the corners!

 

[HadesOmega]

I'm right handed and suck at right turns. When I ride a supermoto I hang off with my knee out on the left turns and I leg out on the right turns because I'm not comfortable doing the rights.

I used to rollerblade when I a teenager and I know that when I was grinding I couldn't do certain moves on different sides. When you do a grind in the uncomfortable side they called it "unnatural".

It's just something you have to overcome with practice I guess.

 

[stangmx13]

its taken me years of all track and no street riding to lose any perceived difference in left vs right turns. i suspect that if i was still riding street, i might continue to approach and execute them differently.

 

[Vin829]

Love it so far. Thanks guys. So glad I didn’t get flamed

 

[DataDan]

Love it so far. Thanks guys. So glad I didn’t get flamed

You posted on Friday evening before Easter weekend. Don't count your chickens just yet. :laughing

 

[NoneMoreBlack]

There is no superior method. Late apex corner entry is used for several different reasons, as is early/er apex entry. The upsides you mention are correct. The downsides are that it also places you in more danger as if there IS someone coming the other way, and you are on the far left of a right hand lane, in a right hand corner, you are more exposed. Lowering speed is a much better way of avoiding running wide. Some corners want and need an early turn in and apex, it depends on too many things to make a one fits all rule. Generally speaking, lowering speed in blind corners is a far superior method to realize safety.

Excellent points. I would only caveat two things 1) that a delayed apex line and reduced entry speed are not mutually exclusive strategies and 2) while there is of course no universal solution to any problem, the purpose of the delayed apex line is to provide a better probability of a positive outcome in the greatest possible number of cases, in a constrained information, street-riding scenario.

 

[lvscrvs]

Ill add a little note. Are you right handed ? Even on the track, a lot of right handed riders say they feel more uncomfortable in right hand turns. It could be due to the fact that your throttle and both brakes are on that side and arm and leg position is awkward. The main fix is practice.

Mad

I would add that if you're right-handed your left foot is your natural pivot foot, your left side your natural pivoting or rotating side..... when you throw a ball, swing a club or bat, etc. Your whole left side has been trained since you were little to rotate or turn to the left in ways that almost no one who is right-handed can replicate turning to the right.

I have no scientific evidence for this, just my own little pet theory.... one of these days I'm going to have to ask a left-handed person if they turn more easily to the right than the left..... :laughing

 

[flying_hun]

I would add that if you're right-handed your left foot is your natural pivot foot, your left side your natural pivoting or rotating side..... when you throw a ball, swing a club or bat, etc. Your whole left side has been trained since you were little to rotate or turn to the left in ways that almost no one who is right-handed can replicate turning to the right.

I have no scientific evidence for this, just my own little pet theory.... one of these days I'm going to have to ask a left-handed person if they turn more easily to the right than the left..... :laughing

FWIW, that's a fascinating connection, and I've not seen it before, so kudos for original (at least to me) thinking. :thumbup

 

[tzrider]

FWIW, that's a fascinating connection, and I've not seen it before, so kudos for original (at least to me) thinking. :thumbup

I hadn't either. It may be a factor, though I don't know where that leaves me; I'm left-handed, but do a lot of things right handed. I throw, write and eat left handed, but swing a bat, shoot and fight right handed.

For me personally, I think the relative comfort has mostly to do with what I'm getting the most practice at. Some local tracks are decidedly left handed, like Laguna. Whenever I ride there, I'm feeling pretty good in lefts at the end of the day. :laughing

A more recent factor for me is that due to the installation of some "aftermarket parts" in my neck a couple of years ago, I can more easily look into lefthand than righthand turns. Where I previously didn't feel like I had a real bias one way or the other, I do now.