Panic Braking Question

[Enchanter]

Unless you are giving the bike throttle at the same time you are trying to brake, I believe you are mistaken. If there is no throttle being given, you will have engine braking until the RPMs drop to idle speed. Freewheeling destabilizes the bike, reducing control and increasing the chances of a slideout.

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Let me take a stab at it though:
While the engine is capable of slowing the vehicle, the brakes can do so much more effectively, better, and in a shorter distance. In other words, once the brakes are being used properly, keeping the rear wheel engaged to the transmission/engine will actually INCREASE the stopping distances.

I have no idea how/why you think that a 'slide-out' when stopping is a likely hazard when disengaging the clutch. There are times when a rapid weight shift (such as one that comes from the inappropriate use of the clutch) is not a good idea. But when someone is stopping in a 'panic' or emergency situation, rapidly disengaging the clutch will lead to shorter stopping distances.

 

[ALANRIDER7]

Unless you are giving the bike throttle at the same time you are trying to brake, I believe you are mistaken. If there is no throttle being given, you will have engine braking until the RPMs drop to idle speed. Freewheeling destabilizes the bike, reducing control and increasing the chances of a slideout.

:wtf

 

[tuxumino]

engine braking, downshifting and throttle modualtion are cornering techniques used to set correct corner entry speed and suspension balance.
Panic braking is the hardest possible stopping a rider can do in a straight line: to stop quickly disengage the clutch and engage the front brake until the bike stops.
IF you are a skilled rider you can use your rear brake to decrease the stopping distance, but be careful of locking up the rear and sliding.

panic stop practice will increase your confidence, and give you a chance to test which stops you quickest; with clucth or with out, with rear or without.

I'm sure there are some riders(Rossi) that are so skilled that they can downshift and use the rear brake to greatly decrease their stopping distance but for most of us clutch in and front brake alone will be the most effective.

 

[christofu]

Can't argue with statistics but I will add one thing:

It is a very worthwhile practice goal to completely disassociate what's going on with your clutch hand/shift foot from what's going on with your throttle hand/braking

Personally, I don't want to instinctively have something happen with my clutch hand simply because something is happening with my brake hand. These are two different controls and I want to control them independently.

I definitely recommend breaking yourself of the habit of always clutching in while braking. If you make it a CHOICE that's fine but a HABIT limits your options.

I hadn't really even thought about it, but it seems that I'm at a point where my right and left hands do operate independently. Which is nice. My right hand can be panic braking while my left hand is playing chess.

Actually, what's really happening is that my right hand can be panic braking while my left hand and foot are busy keeping the transmission in the right gear. Because I personally believe that blipping is a complete waste of time, focus and energy, I don't lose any stopping distance doing this because I can still focus 100% of the brakes into stopping. The downshifting happening on the other side doesn't affect that at all (except that the engine braking on my torquey little bike does help with stopping faster).

 

[LeMec]

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

But when someone is stopping in a 'panic' or emergency situation, rapidly disengaging the clutch will lead to shorter stopping distances.

Based on what? Don't you think engine drag will help stop the motorcycle no matter how hard you are braking? Don't you agree that disengaging the clutch will shift weight forward? Or to put it another way, when you're at the track and come up on a corner way too hot, do you pull in the clutch when you start braking?

 

[Enchanter]

Based on what? Don't you think engine drag will help stop the motorcycle no matter how hard you are braking? Don't you agree that disengaging the clutch will shift weight forward? Or to put it another way, when you're at the track and come up on a corner way too hot, do you pull in the clutch when you start braking?

Weight trasfer will happen when decellerating with the brakes or just by rolling off the throttle.

Engine drag (compression braking) does not provide the same level of braking that the use of the brakes do. When using compression braking in combination with wheel brakes, the wheel brakes have to not only cope with the forward momentum of the motorcycle and the rotational inertia of the wheels, the will also have to try and slow down the engine. All of this leads to less efficient braking (longer distances).

Oh, and there have been times when I've entered a turn too hot and done just as you described (pull in the clutch when using the brakes).

If you are getting shorter stopping/braking distances by combining compression braking with wheel brakes, then you are NOT using the wheel brakes as good, or as much as you could be. Period.

 

[the grinch]

guess what,
there is only a certain amount of traction available to you,
it makes very little difference if that traction is being used up with only the brakes,brakes+engine braking,brakes+engine braking+feet dragging on the ground ala Fred Flintstone

effective braking is more about keeping both ends of the bike on the ground(or close to it),while using all the available traction


i feel that i have more control over that traction with no engine braking

do what feels comfortable to you

btw,my bike comes equiped with a slipper clutch,and i like it,alot

 

[the grinch]

also,
pulling in the clutch does not shift the weight of the bike forward,slowing down does

don't you think it makes more sense that engine braking would shift more weight forward than slowing down by coasting???

give it a try people,close the throttle and feel the weight move forward
then,pull in the clutch and feel the forks extend


and if you really want to learn how braking forces and acceleration forces affect motorcycle traction ,

ride a dirt bike!

 

[Sidewalk]

It is a very worthwhile practice goal to completely disassociate what's going on with your clutch hand/shift foot from what's going on with your throttle hand/braking

I consider that to be a more advanced technique. As long as a person still refers to it as a panic situation, they probably can't yet handle that extra bit of load.

I do practice at ignoring my left hand and shift foot, just clicking down the gears so I am where I want to be (first on the RR, since it is good until 80 MPH anyway ), while concentrating on what my right hand and foot are really doing.

If anyone has really put a lot of braking effort on the rear brake as well as the front with the clutch still engaged, you will find that the engine doesn't like it much. Maybe if you have a slipper clutch you will be fine, but coming short of stalling the engine because you are using the rear brake enough to stall it, that just upsets the suspension with all the bucking.

I have yet to need this technique I practice for. Every time I have had to stop fast, it wasn't so fast that I was not able to blip and match RPM's, I had room to spare. But I still practice, just in case of that one day...

 

[Enchanter]

also,
pulling in the clutch does not shift the weight of the bike forward,slowing down does

don't you think it makes more sense that engine braking would shift more weight forward than slowing down by coasting???

give it a try people,close the throttle and feel the weight move forward
then,pull in the clutch and feel the forks extend


and if you really want to learn how braking forces and acceleration forces affect motorcycle traction ,

ride a dirt bike!

Ride at a constant speed and then pull in the clutch. Feel some decelleration? What you are feeling is weight trasfer. Weight transfer will occur any time you acellerate of decellerate. In your example, (rolling off the throttle & then squeezing the clutch) the fork extended because there is LESS decelleration (& less weight transfer) not because there is no decelleration.

 

[Sidewalk]

A superior rider uses superior judgment to avoid problems that would demand superior skill.

Too bad we can't Mojo signatures :cool

 

[Monkey_Boy]

If you make it a CHOICE that's fine but a HABIT limits your options.

I like this idea but it leaves out most riders who will resort to their habits in a panic situation. In fact, we all resort to our training in panic or high stress situations. So it makes sense for riders to develop good habits.

If in a high stress situation you're still able to make a choice, then you clearly are not in overload. We know this is why highly experienced riders can "back-it-in" to a corner. For nearly all street riders, that level of braking would be an overload situation. LOL

Unfortunately, the vast majority of riders don't understand good braking technique on a motorcycle. And one reason is riders make it far too complicated.

 

[Enchanter]

^^^^ Very good post!

 

[Sidewalk]

We all resort to training and habits when we reach our limits. That is what allows people to do things that they didn't think they could, because it exceded their own mental limits for that time frame.

COnsider anyone who for one reason or another trains regularly at something, anything, and see what that person does when they get over head. Hell, even before they get over their head, they are more prepared for that situation. A cop in a shoot out, a fireman pulling someone out of a fire, rider locking up the front brake, hen immediately releasing and relocking because he has developed that habit.

 

[the grinch]

Ride at a constant speed and then pull in the clutch. Feel some decelleration? What you are feeling is weight trasfer. Weight transfer will occur any time you acellerate of decellerate. In your example, (rolling off the throttle & then squeezing the clutch) the fork extend because there is LESS decelleration (& less weight transfer) not because there is no decelleration.

thank you for agreeing with me

i did not say that the bike did not decelerate when the clutch was pulled in

my point was that there is more weight transfer while engine braking

i suppose i am unclear sometimes

 

[Enchanter]

<<snip>>

Edit: Because I'm not reading or thinking clearly. I guess I got confused.

Sorry Mr. Grinch.

I'll step away from the keyboard and this thread. :later

 

[the grinch]

but i do not like engine breaking

and i agree with what you have said

i was replying to some one else who said that pulling in the clutch caused too much weight transfer,and upset the bike more than using engine breaking also



so stop quoting me , we agree