newbies: when they told you "press right to go right, press left to go left"...

[argh]

In several different contexts, I've now heard from recent MSF (and one not-so-recent!) grads that they thought the idea was to press DOWN on the inside bar to force the bike to lean.

On some bikes, the ergos are such that this is less of an issue, but on others, I keep finding students having a hard time countersteering (despite turning their head) are often riding with their arms locked, trying to press down instead of forward.

So, was the "press right to go right, press left to go left" description confusing to you? If you started out pressing down, did you get coached to bend your elbows and press forward?

Are you still locking your elbows and pressing down?

 

[jbt56]

I found it a good description. Strangely, I've been using that technique for many years on MTB's without ever thinking about it. Even more odd, I tend to pull BACK on the "opposite" side, rather than push forward on the "right" side, if that makes any sense!:nerd In any case, the MSF explanation worked for me!

 

[thinmac]

Well, I didn't get confused about pressing down as opposed to forward, but I did get really confused because at really low speeds I thought it was much easier to steer than counter steer. In fact, below around 10 miles an hour I didn't find counter steering to work at all.

This is still the case, really. When I'm moving at low speeds, say below 10 or 15 mph, I don't counter steer. It just doesn't work for me. Above, that, though, I always counter steer. At this point doing one at low speed and the other at higher speeds is just automatic.

 

[Enchanter]

Well, I didn't get confused about pressing down as opposed to forward, but I did get really confused because at really low speeds I thought it was much easier to steer than counter steer. In fact, below around 10 miles an hour I didn't find counter steering to work at all.

This is still the case, really. When I'm moving at low speeds, say below 10 or 15 mph, I don't counter steer. It just doesn't work for me. Above, that, though, I always counter steer. At this point doing one at low speed and the other at higher speeds is just automatic.

Don't get caught up in looking at the direction that the front tire is pointing. At low speeds, it WILL be pointed into the turn. If you take the time to ride as slowly as possible, and concentrate on the bars, I think that you will find that you did use counter steering to INITIATE the turn (then the front tire rotated into the turn)

 

[darkie]

I've come across some riders who had the idea it was more down than forward to steer a bike. I just had them try it both ways (pushing down vs. pushing forward) in a controlled environment and in every case the riders found pushing forward was what got the steering done.

Often riders who try to push down and forward on the bars end up tense in various parts of their upper body.

Enchanter is right: countersteering comes into play at low speeds as well, though it is subtle.

 

[Hamburger Legs]

Chiming in as one of the misunderstanding MSF students. My MSF instructer said to "push down". Obviously he meant forward, but I understood it as literal DOWN. Not until I posed the question here in barf did I change my technique in real life... of course I steer much easier now. I also have a better concept of what the bike is doing than i did before.

 

[LouH929]

newbie replied "your right or my right"

 

[kentuckyfried]

It depends on who is teaching the class...my instructor clearly mentioned that the gyroscopic effect that countersteering depends upon doesn't really kick in until the rider reaches about 10-15 mph, so it can't be effectively done without that minimal speed range.

That said...I can see why people literally pressed "down" instead of "forward." That should be corrected.

Well, I didn't get confused about pressing down as opposed to forward, but I did get really confused because at really low speeds I thought it was much easier to steer than counter steer. In fact, below around 10 miles an hour I didn't find counter steering to work at all.

This is still the case, really. When I'm moving at low speeds, say below 10 or 15 mph, I don't counter steer. It just doesn't work for me. Above, that, though, I always counter steer. At this point doing one at low speed and the other at higher speeds is just automatic.

 

[darkie]

Please note that the Wright Brothers discovered and documented countersteering from observations with BICYCLES about 100 years ago. They were bicycle guys before they developed aircraft. I have not seen or heard of any study showing a dividing line above which countersteering works and below which it does not.

 

[Enchanter]

I have not seen or heard of any study showing a dividing line above which countersteering works and below which it does not.

Yup. I'm with you.

 

[Aegon]

When I took the MSF the instructor told us "push the left bar forward to turn left." I, being a noob (0 miles), thought he must mean that you push on the right bar to turn left (make the front wheel point left).

So there I am, somewhat confused. I'm asking myself if he really meant what he said. Then he explains that "pushing forward does not mean..."

At this point, I'm thinking to myself "ok, now he is going to correct his mistake".

Instead, he continues, "... pushing down. If you push down, nothing is going to happen. Push the bar forward" and he does a song and dance.

So here is the skilled MSF instructor explaining a point which I consider simple. Anyone can see that if they push down, they aren't affecting the system and nothing will happen, right? I'm still stuck on why he says push left to turn left.

Point is, my MSF instructor made certain that we knew the difference between pushing down on the bars (which doesn't work) and pushing forward. But my head was still spinning from the introduction to countersteering.

 

[tzrider]

Some people I've asked about this in the past have said that they couldn't understand how turning the bars to the right would make the bike lean to the left. They ended up rationalizing the "push left, go left" thing to mean that they should push down on the left bar to crank the bike over. Doing that would accomplish practically nothing, but in reality, when they tried it, they also pushed forward by some amount on the bar and the bike leaned over. It took more effort than pushing straight forward on the bar would, but it reinforced their incorrect notion of how to steer.

Many, many riders are shocked to discover how easily a bike will turn when they push forward on the inside bar. Even people who know that they should be pressing forward often end up pressing partly downward because they are sitting upright on the bike. As soon as they drop their elbows so their forearm is parallel to the ground, steering gets easier by 50%.

 

[CHICKenstrip]

Not sure what it was, but thanks to this thread, on top of thoroughly reading my Sportbike Riding Techniques book and other threads here on BARF, I had a definite breakthrough the last few days of riding. I understood in my head (I think) the whole push left, push right thing, I understood (I think) the physics of it all. But I was really holding back and leery of testing it too much.

Everything came together and something clicked and I was feeling it, on the road. Went out to some twisty but not extreme roads today and can definitely tell the difference. As someone said, though, if going too slow, it doesn't seem to work as well, and on some of the turns, I was going too slow. All good, though. Keep the discussions coming! :thumbup

 

[argh]

Its a good feeling when it clicks, isn't it?

 

[thinmac]

I have not seen or heard of any study showing a dividing line above which countersteering works and below which it does not.

I haven't seen such a study either, which doesn't prove it works at any speed, nor does it disprove that it only works above a certain speed. All we've got to go on is what works for different people.

I just know that for me, if I'm below a certain speed, countersteering isn't effective at all. Other people have had the same experience, but still others find it to be effective at any speed. Based on that anecdotal evidence, I'd say that people should try both. Countersteering not working for you around the parking lot? Well, don't countersteer, then. Countersteering effective at any and all speeds for you? Well, countersteer to your heart's content.

Do what works for you, just keep in mind that just because the MSF instructor only ever talks about counter steering doesn't mean that everyone is happy countersteering at low speeds. The direction in which you push your handlebars at 10 mph isn't a huge safety issue, so if you want to do it some funny way nobody else does, have a ball.

 

[sillygirl]

Thats the problem! I couldnt figure out why on my new sport bike i felt less comfortable leaning than on my cruiser - I mean it should be easier right? But because of the new position I think have added a bad habit of pushing a little down - on the cruiser it was natural to push forward.

Cant wait for my morning ride!

 

[Abunai]

Nope, even after i seeing a video of this guy swerving left with the front wheel pointing right. I refused to believe. Not that i didn't try, but most of the speed that we're going at that time is below 20 MPH and counter-steering is hardly noticeable.

 

[greener]

Last night I found myself on my first twisties, and i kept feeling like I was going too fast for the turns, taking them wide at a speed I knew was plenty slow.
SO, I tried using just countersteering only for every turn, slowish or fastish. Amazing, precise, confident control was the result. Once I got over the non-intuitive aspect, I was applying a firm deep countersteer and the bike would obediently lean and turn. Even mid turn I could alter my angle/turn rate by pushing more countersteer or pulling less countersteer. Then on the way home I even realized I should use it to change lanes going 'straight' down a freeway. I learned a lot about motorcycling in just a few minutes, even though it felt wrong the first couple times. Once that bike is moving, forget normal steering, its designed to work with countersteer. Obviously this was all discussed in MSF but I see that I never really let it penetrate until I put faith in it and really tried it and felt it working.

 

[SVeta650S]

Chiming in as one of the misunderstanding MSF students. My MSF instructer said to "push down". Obviously he meant forward, but I understood it as literal DOWN. Not until I posed the question here in barf did I change my technique in real life... of course I steer much easier now. I also have a better concept of what the bike is doing than i did before.

That's 'cause men dont listen....

 

[Vane]

It is an interesting feeling, works on my MTB too. just going through the parking lot, sit straight and push on the bar and feel my bike leaning over.

Although its not as important with an MTB theres such a small gyro effect that I can flick that thing with no problem but a motorcycle is a bit different.