New Riders and the Freeway

[Slate]

I don't see where there is learning involved in this thread. The OP stated that anyone new shouldn't be on the freeways because he has a theory that because we drive a certain way, we'll ride the same way. I don't see how that opinion = fact based. Sure some people take more time to get used to certain conditions. Other people grasp ideas and concepts quickly. The post is a good reminder to stay aware, but other than that, I don't agree with it.

Motorcycling experience is primarily gained by action. You can read Twist of the Wrist until your eyes bleed, but until you go experience it for yourself, you'll never know how you will react in various riding situations.

 

[flying_hun]

Perhaps there are insights and observations in the OP that other new riders might not have considered. If that's the case, for those folks that may well be learning.

 

[CaptCrash]

Motorcycling experience is primarily gained by action. You can read Twist of the Wrist until your eyes bleed, but until you go experience it for yourself, you'll never know how you will react in various riding situations.

That's an interesting insight...the question isn't how we learn but who we learn it from. Discovery learning (teaching ourselves) often comes with a certain amount of...bruising. It's often best to learn from others mistakes. Experience can be a hard teacher.

Likewise you can never know how you will react in a situation--but you can have a pretty dang good idea of what you're gonna do by living 10 to 12 seconds in the future and having a skill set that is honed and ready in case something unexpected appears inside the bubble.

 

[Slate]

Right, but skills are learned by repeated action. The conundrum is pretty much like the chicken/egg question. How do you learn those skills that will allow you to be ready to face the unexpected? Sure, you can read and watch videos, but until you put it into practice, it's all just theory.

I was in an aviation program in college, the flight instructor said we were going to go do emergency maneuvers and she explained what to do and how to do it. We went and did some practice and things went pretty well. Then, we did a blindfold test. I was given a face shield that didn't allow me to see anything outside, but I could feel her twisting and turning the plane to disorient me. The test was when she said go. I flipped up the visor and had to correct the plane's flight. If I hadn't been able to practice before, I would never have been able to pass the test. Experience will always be the best teacher of all.

I guess my problem is that I've been thru MSF and I assume that new riders would go take that course as well. I forget that some people don't take the MSF. In a lot of ways, freeway driving (in a car) helps me be better at predicting driving behaviors of other drivers. It's how I've navigated through 101/880 traffic. I end up memorizing where people slow down, the little nuances that indicate a driver is looking to change lanes w/o a signal, or the person not paying attention. Knowing how I drive a car lets me better understand those situations and apply them to when I commute on my bike. I've been driving for 20 years, so that experience comes into play.

I have a far worse time when I have to commute with other riders. Some riders tend to be really timid about lane sharing and they ride their brakes while not letting anyone else pass by because they block the lane sharing portion of the road. They can be unpredictable at best.

 

[CaptCrash]

I was in an aviation program in college, the flight instructor said we were going to go do emergency maneuvers and she explained what to do and how to do it. We went and did some practice and things went pretty well. Then, we did a blindfold test. I was given a face shield that didn't allow me to see anything outside, but I could feel her twisting and turning the plane to disorient me. The test was when she said go. I flipped up the visor and had to correct the plane's flight. If I hadn't been able to practice before, I would never have been able to pass the test. Experience will always be the best teacher of all.

For the sake of curiousity:

Have you ever blindfolded yourself, pitched the plane around, taken off the blindfold and corrected the planes flight?

Sounds like in a violently dangerous situation you learned how to handle it with someone right there to save your skin (and equally or more motivation to save their own). In the end, you didn't do it by yourself you did it under direct supervision.

Part of the original theory of the post was that judging our own skills by our own measure is a difficult issue and easy to over or under estimate.

 

[Slate]

I'm not sure how that question applies. If I pitched the plane around and knew what controls I had input already, then I would definitely be able to correct it, even with the blindfold still on.

In the end, you didn't do it by yourself you did it under direct supervision.

I'm not sure what your point is. The fact that I had guidance or that I had someone that could get me out of the situation in case I failed? If I had failed the test, that would have been the same as me crashing the plane (or bike).

I don't think I've ever measured my own skill or even judged it while riding. I go expecting the worst and preparing for it. The first time I got on the freeway, I was super nervous, but I had mentally prepared myself as best I could. I don't think spending more time on side streets really means anything if you're not prepared for highway traffic. As a matter of fact, you could get too complacent with how traffic is on side streets and take that mindset with you on the highway. People pay less attention on side streets because speeds are lower and you think there's less danger. Getting used to that idea could be just as disastrous.

 

[CaptCrash]

I'm not sure what your point is. The fact that I had guidance or that I had someone that could get me out of the situation in case I failed? If I had failed the test, that would have been the same as me crashing the plane (or bike).

The point is that a professional instructor sat beside you, placed the plane into a modestly dangerous situation she knew you had previously studied and from which she knew she could recover the aircraft if things went down the shitter. The test was also a simulation of an emergency that was crafted for safety and for assessment. Chief among the things the instructor was checking for was also how you managed yourself in a controlled situation where the plane was pushed far enough out of shape as to rattle the new pilot.

This was a gradual building up to a final event, there was prep and study, it was the culmination of a long learning process and you were not engaged in "discovery" learning you were being professionally evaluated on your ability to apply previously learned skills in a new environment...like waiting to go gangbusters lane splitting on 101 until you've got some skills in your back pocket...except there's no instructor to catch the plane before it becomes completely compromised...so it's almost exactly the same....sort of....

 

[Slate]

My 3rd time on the freeway, I was lane splitting within my first month of riding. I've been doing it ever since and I haven't had an accident yet. Having an instructor wouldn't have made a difference. Anyone who is serious about safety will have read dozens of threads about riding on the freeway and what they should consider before going out. I just disagree that new riders should be told to stay off the highway because they might not be able to handle it.

 

[pvn.23]

My 3rd time on the freeway, I was lane splitting within my first month of riding. I've been doing it ever since and I haven't had an accident yet.

The keyword is yet. You have yet to know that you will be getting in an accident the next time you'll be lane-splitting. You can't assume that people in cages will know you will be lane-splitting. They can be distracted doing whatever they're doing or even changing lanes without looking and BOOM, you go down.

However, how far of the freeway commute are we all talking about? If it's 2-3 exits away from your house, go for it (such as from Tully to Yerba Buena Rd). But anything longer, I think new riders definitely are not ready to ride the freeway.

I just disagree that new riders should be told to stay off the highway because they might not be able to handle it.

I wouldn't disagree with anyone here trying to state that newer riders should stay off the freeway. They have to understand the limitations of their bike and know how to handle it properly first. But for someone who might be riding twice a week during this time of the year and barely getting used to riding their first bike, the freeway shouldn't be a priority until they've put more miles into their ride.

 

[Slate]

You're well within your rights to your point of view, but what makes you the judge to say what new riders should or should not do?

Also, I never assume what cagers will do. However, I can make an experienced judgement from my years of driving and make my decisions based on those. As I said before, I look ahead and prepare exit strategies. I prepare for the worst and try to keep focused. No one can say they're not going to get into an accident. I never said otherwise.

 

[pvn.23]

I'm not being a judge nor even trying to state what new riders should or should not do. What I'm stating is that information such as this has passed down from rider to rider as well as taking your MSF safety course and reading information throughout the forums.

If you feel that YOU are confident with your skills within the first month of riding, heck go for it. I'm not stopping you. If it were my friends, I'd ride with them more in the parking lot and around the city before I see that they're comfortable with their bikes before they will actually hit up the freeway.

 

[Slate]

I'm not being a judge nor even trying to state what new riders should or should not do.

However, how far of the freeway commute are we all talking about? If it's 2-3 exits away from your house, go for it (such as from Tully to Yerba Buena Rd). But anything longer, I think new riders definitely are not ready to ride the freeway.

I wouldn't disagree with anyone here trying to state that newer riders should stay off the freeway. They have to understand the limitations of their bike and know how to handle it properly first. But for someone who might be riding twice a week during this time of the year and barely getting used to riding their first bike, the freeway shouldn't be a priority until they've put more miles into their ride.

Looks to me that you've made a judgement call on new riders.

 

[Sharxfan]

I am a new rider and have to take the freeway everyday to work. It was a conscious choice I made to save time, money and gas. Plus I am only in Cali part time and a bike is cheaper than a car. I had no other easy options for a ride to work. I was scared crapless of the freeway and it took me about a month before I got on it. I have been riding it now for awhile and it has gotten better but I am still scared for lack of a better word.
Seeing as I commute 90% of the time I have made the smart decision and have planned my route so that it is the safest I can make it. I avoid all bad intersections and merges even though it may take me 10 extra minutes to get where I am going. It is a scary proposition but it can be mitigated with proper planning and execution. There have been a few Ohh shit moments while riding on the freeway but again if you plan ahead they will be minimal. I took the MSF course and it helped to reinforce good riding habits and it has saved my bacon a few times and when I do have Oh shit moments I look back on them and realize that they were my fault and then I go about correcting the behavior that got me there in the first place.
What makes me nervous is all the other riders I see that throw caution to the wind and do things that remind me why I am always super cautious when riding. I still can't believe that I see people splitting lanes at 60mph I have no idea of their skill level but I am not sure how much skill helps when a car changes lanes right in front of you and you know you are going to hit with no chance to brake.
Anyways take this rambling statement for what it worth from a newb rider's perspective.

 

[Underdog]

... I still can't believe that I see people splitting lanes at 60mph I have no idea of their skill level but I am not sure how much skill helps when a car changes lanes right in front of you and you know you are going to hit with no chance to brake.
Anyways take this rambling statement for what it worth from a newb rider's perspective.

Assume cars never see you and deduce your course of action.
Most cars see other cars far better. Sometimes splitting between cars is safer than riding between their bumpers.

 

[Darwin]

Always worth it to check the numbers. We have lots of opinions. The numbers help evaluate the strength of the opinion.

Where do a majority of multi-vehicle accidents happen? That's right, at intersections (or any place where there is a major choice in path of travel). What's the most common multi-vehicle accident? Right again, a car turning left violating the motorcyclist's path of travel and colliding with them.

So, do we have oncoming vehicles turning left in front of us on the highway? No. Do we have intersections? No Do we have places with major choices in path of travel? Yes (merges - on and off ramps).

Realistically, I believe that we are at much higher danger for multi-vehicle collisions riding on surface streets than we are riding on the limited access highways. If we're advocating not riding on the freeways because of the inherent dangers (which are real), then should we not be advocating more strongly to not ride on surface streets because of the greater danger?

Its only numbers. Ultimately we all make choices and accept the consequences of our choices (sometimes accepting the consequences whether we want to or not... like getting hurt or worse). And remember, don't forget to enjoy the ride.

 

[CaptCrash]

To my mind the issue is also linked to the most dangerous problem we actually have control over: single vehicle accidents. To my mind a mature and practiced skill set is vital to our success. A rider, especially an new one, is not only at risk of other users on the freeway but they can be a grave danger to themselves. My original pinpoint was actually nicely buttressed by Mr. Slate who immediately started lane splitting inside a month without "problem".

Now I know you're not going to endorse lane splitting in the first month because of your background. Myself? The issue is how well honed the knife is. I would argue that all the problems (braking mistakes, swerve errors, sight line & anticipation errors) which are the cause of single vehicle crashes are amplified on the freeway. Is it a big deal? I think so because a get off on the freeway at speed is bad news. Likewise a new rider who "beats" the freeway and feels they have somehow passed their big test? That's an issue too.

Remember: crashing while swerving or crashing while over braking--even if another vehicle or mammal is in your path--is still a single vehicle accident.

 

[bingia]

i spent a good month and a half and first 3000 miles off the freeway commuting when I first started riding, until I switched job and had no other choice. however I got on the freeway the first time I rode a mc (excluding msf) since I had to ride my purchased ninja 250 back from Napa to San Jose, YES, I'm guilty as charge. what fascinated me was by reading the post up top by that dude who thinks people are "telling" him what to do when we say stay off the freeway. my impression was "just wait for it". they are just recommending dude, don't get all emo now. I am a fresh noob myself but in all I think this post should be where experience riders point out the different oh sh** moments or things to look for while riding the freeway instead of telling the new riders "you dont have enough skill yet, just stay off the damn thing for a year, 5000 miles, 300 hrs of parking riding etc" I did fine on that first 120 miles back from Napa, was I at higher risk? yes. was I scared sh*tless? you bet but there are choices in life that each of us has to make for ourselves. you remember what it feels like when you folks don't let you do something cause you're probably too young, well, they are mostly right but did you retaliate against that? you bet.

 

[Darwin]

Agree - faster speeds can magnify mistakes. When looking at single vehicle accidents, what is the most common? In California, I believe it was somewhere around 60% of motorcycle accidents were single vehicle. By far, the most common single vehicle accident was failing to negotiate a turn. There just aren't many turns on the highways. There are no cross streets, no driveways for people to turn into or out of.

Each situation presents different challenges and problems. Its worthwhile to be aware of how the challenges vary with each situation. Riders should definitely wait until they feel ready for the speed. Riders should be aware that the ride to the supermarket (with lots of intersections, driveways, oncoming traffic, etc.) isn't safer than riding on the highways. Canyon carving on their favorite twisty at 40 mph has its large share of dangers as well. In the end, we can argue that every form of riding has risks to be aware of. And its true - every time you throw a leg over that two wheeled contraption you assume an increased risk. Everyone chooses how much risk they're willing to accept. Motorcycling is a commitment... are you committed or should you be committed?

 

[afm199]

I bought my first motorcycle and rode it 170 miles home, over freeways, streets, and through Big Sur. I loved every second of it.

 

[NorCal Factory]

I bought my first motorcycle and rode it 170 miles home, over freeways, streets, and through Big Sur. I loved every second of it.

Ernie, either you're an exceptional rider or that was so long ago there weren't nearly as many cars on the road back then. I'm pretty sure it is both. :thumbup

Us "experienced" guys did a lot of things that probably aren't such a great idea these days.

My first three years of street riding were commuting at night in the rain in England. Freeway riding here is way easier, but the big difference is that people in the UK knew how to drive.