MSF -- Now What?

[Outta Control]

I am grabbing some popcorn and sit my a$$ down. Oh BTW I got 6 words... Mick Doohan's rear thumb brake lever :teeth :later

 

[Monkey_Boy]

While looking through turns is important, you can't steer a bike with your eyeballs.
...

Uh, I said don't be overly concerned. Not sure how that translates into "steering is not important." You may not steer the bike with your eyeballs, but you sure as heck control the direction of travel with your vision. Same is true with a cage.

With the number of track days I do each year (about 35-40) and all the schools, off the top of my head I can't recall a single rider who needed instruction with steering (there must have been at least one :laughing . ) However, even novice track riders have a far amount of street time under their belt. I have instructed very few pure beginners. I'll leave that to the MSF.

The most important survival skills to learn, for track and street: smooth braking, proper throttle control, being relaxed, and looking through corners. Disciplined training with the last two will save your life.

 

[Monkey_Boy]

I am grabbing some popcorn and sit my a$$ down. Oh BTW I got 6 words... Mick Doohan's rear thumb brake lever :teeth :later

Yeah, and Duhammel used the rear brake on the RC51. Not sure if he does on the RR. Interesting note, Duhammel applied the rear brake on the RC51 at mid corner to near the exit of the corner. He didn't use it on corner entry. Hmmmm, I wonder why he used it that way. Nicky Hayden used a different technique with the RC51. No rear brake. Hmmm, I wonder why.

When you become as good a rider as Duhammel or Doohan, feel free to use the brakes as you wish.

Tell me, how and why does a rider of that caliber use the rear brake?

 

[tzrider]

Uh, I said don't be overly concerned. Not sure how that translates into "steering is not important."

<snip>

The most important survival skills to learn, for track and street: smooth braking, proper throttle control, being relaxed, and looking through corners. Disciplined training with the last two will save your life.

While you didn't explicitly say steering was unimportant, it doesn't seem to rate for you as being among the most important survival skills a rider can have. You appear to assume everyone already knows how. Have I misunderstood?

The reason I persist on this is that unlike you, I have met many fairly experienced riders, even at the track, who didn't really know how to turn a bike that well. They could get it around a corner they were planning for, but in a surprise situation, they couldn't turn that fast or effectively. As long as that's the case, they're not nearly as safe as they could be. If I recognize the problem and can teach them to steer better, why would I "leave that to the MSF?"

 

[Enchanter]

Don't overly concern yourself with countersteering, as steering a bike is pretty much a natural thing.

Yeah, it's a skill we are all born with isn't it?

I have instructed very few pure beginners. I'll leave that to the MSF.

As someone that has instructed 8000+ people, I can tell you that countersteering is far from natural. (I can take out my E-penis and wave it around too. See, it really doesn't give me more respect does it? Pot, kettle....you're black.)

Your opinions seemed to be based on your perception of the motorcycling public. The type of the public that seek out trackdays, and the type of the public that seek out elevated skills is a whole lot smaller than I think you believe it is. It is my experience that the majority of the riding public feels that once they can operate a motorcycle, they now 'know how to ride'.

Well, "we" is any experienced rider who's been around the block.

You feel qualified to speak for all of the experienced riders everywhere huh? Sounds like you think rather highly of yourself.

I do not think "not if, but when", and I do not teach students that either. I teach them to do everything they can to avoid crashing, I tell them crashing is possible, and sometimes likely, but it really isn't 'when'. I know a few riders with 30+ years behind them, and they have not crashed...ever. I see where you are coming from, I just disagree.

 

[bmer97]

"THis is why we tell riders it's not a matter of IF you will crash, but WHEN."

Your posts on this subject are pompous and narrow minded. In the real world vs artificial track environment, the rear brake is needed to stop in the shortest possible distance. Any competent study will show this. The 6-10 feet of distance saved by using the rear brake, may well be the difference between crashing and smiling.

I can see why you warn your students to start expecting to crash!!

 

[myap]

Yeah, screw countersteering.

 

[Outta Control]

Yeah, it's a skill we are all born with isn't it?



As someone that has instructed 8000+ people, I can tell you that countersteering is far from natural. (I can take out my E-penis and wave it around too. See, it really doesn't give me more respect does it? Pot, kettle....you're black.)

Your opinions seemed to be based on your perception of the motorcycling public. The amount of the public that seek out trackdays, and the amount of the public that seek out elevated skills is a whole lot smaller than I think you believe it is.



You feel qualified to speak for all of the experienced riders everywhere huh? Sounds like you think rather highly of yourself.

+1

I guess you also teach your students to use all front brakes in slippery/rainy condition since they are that good from "your" school. But it would also safe to say that you teach you students stopping quickly on a corner which means full application of only the front brake while leaned over...and stopping within a reasonable distance.

Hmm do they allow or have enough room on a 20+ feet corner portion of a track to simulate the actual lenght of a normal street road without getting pinged by a car in the opposite direction? Huh...what do I know, I only teach MSF. But my students see me in public thanking me for the lessons as they go on with their war stories and how it saved their life. Ehhh... oh well back to the popcorn.


Oh...

Tell me, how and why does a rider of that caliber use the rear brake?

You're the expert, You tell me.

DOES AnyOne Here Have Some Extra Butter. :teeth :later

 

[Monkey_Boy]

<snip>


While you didn't explicitly say steering was unimportant, it doesn't seem to rate for you as being among the most important survival skills a rider can have. You appear to assume everyone already knows how. Have I misunderstood?

The reason I persist on this is that unlike you, I have met many fairly experienced riders, even at the track, who didn't really know how to turn a bike that well. They could get it around a corner they were planning for, but in a surprise situation, they couldn't turn that fast or effectively. As long as that's the case, they're not nearly as safe as they could be. If I recognize the problem and can teach them to steer better, why would I "leave that to the MSF?"

I agree with you (all of you) that steering a bike properly is a very important skill, track or street.

In context to the original question of this thread, "Now what" my point was exactly what I said. Don't overly concern yourself with steering [at this point in time].

Does that clarify things?

 

[Monkey_Boy]

Man, a rough crowd here. I'm being slammed here because my comments are being interpreted outside the context of the original premise of this thread. I hope you read this fully before you perform another body slam.

The premise of the thread is :

"So, you take the MSF RiderCourse, you get yourself a nice, mellow starter bike, now what?"

The author also asked about countersteering and trailbraking. I replied:

"Don't overly concern yourself with countersteering, as steering a bike is pretty much a natural thing. Practice looking through corners - all the time. Learn to be relaxed as well."

Then I gave some lame explanation about trail braking. I never said steering is not important. I just said, in context to "now what", to practice being relaxed and looking through corners.

If one has taken the MSF course, then he understands the basics of countersteering (or push, whatever.) For normal street riding, steering IS a natural action, otherwise people on bicycles and motorcycles would be crashing all the time due to not steering correctly. The THEORY of countersteering is what people often have trouble with because it seems counter intuitive. I am assuming here that the vast majority of MSF graduates have experience riding a bicycle, and if that's correct, then unless a rider thinks too much about how to steer (gets all caught up in the theory) he/she already knows how to steer a motorcycle. Maybe not with as much proficiency has he will gain over time, but enough for now, enough to putt around gaining general riding experience.

But that aside, as a graduate of the MSF, countersteering has been explained and practiced for a number of hours. The basics are there. My suggestion was simply don't worry about it [right now] - practice being relaxed and looking through corners. I never said steering was not important and something not to work on. That is my opinion, agree or disagree, either way that’s cool.

Then I said:

"the next step for you is to just ride. Stay away from city riding if you can while you build your skills and discipline as a rider. Wear the best protective gear you can afford. And enjoy the ride."

That's all I said.

As to the braking issue, yes, I still use the front brake heavily in wet conditions, but I may also use some rear brake as well. Wet or dry, the front brake provides the most power. Does anyone recall this statement by me?

“And unless I'm dealing with low traction situations, it's 100% front brake on the street as well, on a sport bike, my GS, or when I had my Harley Davidsons or even the Goldwing.”

In the dirt, I use a lot more rear brake. But I also use the front brake on a dirt bike. I will admit to using the rear brake more often on a touring bike, but usually to smooth things out for a passenger, not because it’s really necessary.

You guys can toss out all the scientific proof you want, claiming that using the rear brake will shorten the braking distance. But that is not what happens in real life. For the vast majority of riders, using the rear brake in a panic situation is going to get them in trouble. The proof for that is at the typical accident scene, the one where a cage driver pulls out in front of a rider. One skid mark, from the rear tire. So much for any braking power. Had the rider known how to use 95% of the front braking power, there would be no skid mark and he would have stopped in a shorter distance. That is real world. And that is why ABS is such a fine idea for a street bike, as BMW has proven over and over again.

 

[Monkey_Boy]

Yeah, it's a skill we are all born with isn't it?

As someone that has instructed 8000+ people, I can tell you that countersteering is far from natural. (I can take out my E-penis and wave it around too. See, it really doesn't give me more respect does it? Pot, kettle....you're black.)

I don't have an epenis, so whatever. The fact that you have instructed such a large number of people gives you credibility, as should my experience.

Your opinions seemed to be based on your perception of the motorcycling public. The type of the public that seek out trackdays, and the type of the public that seek out elevated skills is a whole lot smaller than I think you believe it is. It is my experience that the majority of the riding public feels that once they can operate a motorcycle, they now 'know how to ride'.

I agree with this. You work with beginning riders and old timers alike (the latter who probably do think they know how to ride- I used to be in that camp myself until I was exposed to professional training.) I work primarily with track riders, which is a tiny portion of the riding community. Some of our focus is going to be different in regards to training.

You feel qualified to speak for all of the experienced riders everywhere huh? Sounds like you think rather highly of yourself.

Whatever.

I do not think "not if, but when", and I do not teach students that either. I teach them to do everything they can to avoid crashing, I tell them crashing is possible, and sometimes likely, but it really isn't 'when'. I know a few riders with 30+ years behind them, and they have not crashed...ever. I see where you are coming from, I just disagree.

That's fine. From a track perspective, it is a matter of when, not if. Otherwise one is not pushing the boundaries. The street is not the place to push the boundaries. On the track you wear the best gear possible because you ARE going to crash. On the street, you wear the best gear (hopefully) just in case...

I've averaged one crash per year on the track, which is why I wear leathers that cost $2,500 and Daytona Security boots that cost me $750 (they now cost $1,000.) I understand pain. LOL.

I have one street crash under my belt (2001). And I've yet to figure out why that damn VFR ljust dropped out from under me in a turn. May have been a cold edge of the tire, I dunno. :green

 

[Enchanter]

Thanks for the time spent on your attempt at clarification.

We agree that using the front brake properly is important.

We agree that using the rear brake improperly is bad.

We disagree on how to correct the misuse of the rear brake. You feel that riders cannot use it properly, so they shouldn't use it at all. I feel that the solution is to train riders to use it properly.

As for the steering thing:
In your recent post trying to clarify yourself, you again state that "steering IS a natural action". Dude, you are waaaay off here. 70% of the students I see have never been at the controls of a motorcycle, 30% have ridden before, and 99.9% have ridden a bicycle before. Fully 80% of them attempt to change direction by leaning their body or shoulders, or knees into their intended direction. As I'm sure you do, I watch motorcyclists while I'm on the road. the majority of the ones that I see initiate their turn with body movement. I consider that an inadvertant input to the handlebar.

Why am I bringing up your comments on turning in a thread that was more concerned with braking? Well, because in my mind, I must consider that if you are off base in the cornering thing, I must also think about the other 'facts' you attempt to present.

edited for shpelling

 

[tzrider]

Monkey,

Thanks for clarifying your position. As is often the case on threads like this, we agree more than it appeared.

You're right that by the time a rider has passed MSF, they have practiced countersteering quiite a bit. I don't quite agree that if you know how to steer a bicycle you can steer a motorcycle. While a bicycle countersteers, the rider can generate lean much more easily with his body weight than he can on a motorcycle.

Finally, I happen to agree with you more than not on braking. I too use the front almost exclusively, though on bikes that won't stoppie and therefore keep the rear wheel on the ground I may use the rear at times.

So, the OP has a reading list from this thread, as well as the good suggestion to get away from traffic and put some miles on. What else would people suggest he do?

 

[Monkey_Boy]

Oh...
You're the expert, You tell me.

DOES AnyOne Here Have Some Extra Butter. :teeth :later

Hey, you brought up Doohan, not me.

I don't know how Doohan used his thumb brake, but I do know why Duhammel used the rear brake on the RC51, and why Nicky didn't.

So many people think racers use the rear brake like it may be used on the street. Fact is, if a racer does us it, it is likely that he uses it in a much different way and for other purposes. Since you brought it up, I just thought it appropriate to hear your expert opinion on the subject.

 

[Enchanter]

Thanks for the interaction. I learned stuff. (seriously).

I think that we've beat this horse a bit too much, yeah?

I'm out.

 

[Monkey_Boy]

Why am I bringing up your comments on turning in a thread that was more concerned with braking? Well, because in my mind, I must consider that if you are so far off base in the cornering thing, I must also think about the other 'facts' you attempt to present.

Fair enough, and thanks.

I disagree on the steering thing. For a beginner, I am less concerned about perfect steering technique and more concerned about learning to be relaxed and looking through turns. Most Harley riders I see on the street don't steer/turn properly. From a techinical standpoint, that is not a good thing. But it is generally harmless to the operator. Few riders crash on the street because they initiate a turn incorrectly. MANY riders crash due to target fixation.

But we disagree, that's cool.

Let's compromise and put it thus: "practice countersteering, being relaxed, and looking through turns." Does that work?

 

[Monkey_Boy]

Finally, I happen to agree with you more than not on braking. I too use the front almost exclusively, though on bikes that won't stoppie and therefore keep the rear wheel on the ground I may use the rear at times.

ab, I thought the same thing until I had a really spooky panic stop on my HD Roadglide a few years back. I applied as much front brake as my hand could muster then gently applied the rear. The rear still locked up, and I mean I hardly touched the pedal.

Oh well, HD brakes suck! :laughing

Man, it's all good.

 

[bmer97]

Uh, You may not steer the bike with your eyeballs, but you sure as heck control the direction of travel with your vision.

I control direction with vision AND countersteering or counterbalancing techniques. Maybe you have a new type of motorcycle with bionic steering. Pictures??

[/B][/QUOTE] The most important survival skills to learn, for track and street: smooth braking, proper throttle control, being relaxed, and looking through corners. Disciplined training with the last two will save your life. [/B][/QUOTE]

The 12 second defensive riding technique as taught in MSF is pretty important too. The most sophisticated unit of the motorcycle/rider complex is the brain, with defensive driving/riding skills well practiced.

BTW: Countersteering is not automatic in the newbie. In reflexive situations the wrong movement may end in death. After 38 years of riding, sans crash, I still enjoy fine tuning countersteering.

 

[bmer97]

www.ridelikeapro.com is an excellent riding improvement site. I have purchased all of Jerry's dvds, and continue to learn and improve my riding. Check out the Police Rodeo to be humbled.

So much of the usual training/tips/advice on riding are somewhat exclusive to the track, and could get you killed on the street. Jerry is a police motorcycle instructor, and the training is street specific.

Orange cones are usually available at Wally Marts.

 

[bmer97]

ab, I thought the same thing until I had a really spooky panic stop on my HD Roadglide a few years back. I applied as much front brake as my hand could muster then gently applied the rear. The rear still locked up, and I mean I hardly touched the pedal.

Checkmate.
You do NOT know how to use the rear brake for panic stopping.
The correct technique is to apply both brakes simultaneously, then fade the rear brake pressure as the front tire becomes more loaded.

Are you sure you are an instructor?

:confused

May be time for a MSF refresher course.