MSF -- Now What?

[RickBlaine]

So, you take the MSF RiderCourse, you get yourself a nice, mellow starter bike, now what? Any recommendations on books/courses/rides that are good for those of us who aren't quite sure what all this "trail braking" and "countersteering" is about would be much appreciated by many noobs, I'm sure.

And where can you get a set of those cones they use in the MSF course?

:nerd

 

[majofly]

look at pashnit.com

 

[Monkey_Boy]

Don't overly concern yourself with countersteering, as steering a bike is pretty much a natural thing. Practice looking through corners - all the time. Learn to be relaxed as well.

The one thing MSF teaches that many of us disagree with is the use of brakes. MSF tells you never to use your front brake while leaned over. That is fine for a beginner as far as avoiding its use in a corner until you gain more experience. But know this: You can use the front brake in a corner, while leaned over. In fact, it is amazing just how hard one can brake at certain lean angles. But using the front brake in this manner takes practice and one never knows just how hard one can brake at any particular lean angle until it's too much.

The basic rule is, the more lean angle, the lesser amount of braking can be applied. So one can brake very hard going into a turn and as the lean angle increases, the braking applied must be reduced. That is trail braking in a nutshell.

Watch the MotoGP guys trail braking and you'll notice that even at a 20-25 degree lean angle, they may lift the rear wheel off the ground using the front brake. At lean, the front tire still offers a substantial amount of braking power.

As for the rear brake? Stop using it except in parking lots or other slow speed maneuvers. Get used to using the front brake exclusively - except on gravel...

Sooooo... the next step for you is to just ride. Stay away from city riding if you can while you build your skills and discipline as a rider. Did he say "discipline" ? Yes. :laughing Most riding skills are developed by practicing them over and over again - especially the skills that will keep you alive out there, such as being relaxed and looking through corners.

Wear the best protective gear you can afford. And enjoy the ride.

 

[Enchanter]

You post isn't too bad up until this part:

As for the rear brake? Stop using it except in parking lots or other slow speed maneuvers. Get used to using the front brake exclusively - except on gravel...

Using the rear brake can be useful. Especially for someone that has not MASTERED the use of the front brake. The ONLY time that the rear brake is a problem, is when the rider does not/cannot use it properly. It is more appropriate to teach a novice proper use of the controls rather than teach them to give up controls that they haven't mastered yet.

 

[faz]

Definitely:

street strategies

followed by

proficient motorcycling

to begin with.

 

[slydrite]

The one thing MSF teaches that many of us disagree with is the use of brakes. MSF tells you never to use your front brake while leaned over. As for the rear brake? Stop using it except in parking lots or other slow speed maneuvers. Get used to using the front brake exclusively - except on gravel...

some good advice except for the above two points......

in fact MSF teaches two distinct ways of braking in a corner.....

and not using the rear brake regularly just means that one is not very good at it and thus is giving up a % of their total stopping power.......

 

[humbug612]

A Twist of the Wrist
A twist of the Wrist 2, by Keith Code

Great reading

 

[i4strtsweepr]

Definitely:

street strategies

followed by

proficient motorcycling

to begin with.

+1

Hough's books were a big help when I was starting out -- helping to fill the huge learning gap after MSF and before I hit 5-digits on the odometer (and I'm still a long way from 6-digits).

Then:
Ride ride ride... rain or shine, hot or cold -- else what's the point?

I rode a ~lot~ that first year, and the twistier the better; I used to string together 3 or 4 or 5 beautiful and twisty pashnit roads for a Saturday ride. I also skirted the big cities that first year (or cut through in the morning) because, as Code would say, I was still spending dollars instead of quarters on basic things like clutch and brake.

 

[SpeedyCorky]

all you gotta do to improve your skillz after MSF is just show up for a BARF group ride; and ride A group. you'll learn so much keeping up with those guys!







(joke. joke.)

 

[Monkey_Boy]

some good advice except for the above two points......

in fact MSF teaches two distinct ways of braking in a corner.....

and not using the rear brake regularly just means that one is not very good at it and thus is giving up a % of their total stopping power.......

First, I have no problem with what the MSF teaches on how to brake in a corner, such as using the lane width to upright the bike as much as possible when applying the brakes. That is actually fine advice for some situations -- but not nearly all.

Not using the rear brake has nothing to do with "not very good at it." It has everything to do with control and staying alive. As to such a skill level, ask Aaron Yates how often he uses the rear brake in an AMA road race.

The only time I use the rear brake on the track is if I run off the track surface into the dirt... Otherwise it's 100% front brake only. And unless I'm dealing with low traction situations, it's 100% front brake on the street as well, on a sport bike, my GS, or when I had my Harley Davidsons or even the Goldwing.

The main reason for developing your braking skill with the front brake is because the rear brake provides zero benefit under hard braking conditions, and those are the conditions that exist in nearly all panic stops. In fact, if one does not apply the front brake hard enough to lift the rear wheel, then you're not using all the power the front brake has to offer (at least with a sport bike.) And under those conditions, the rear brake is worthless. Or, if not lifting the rear wheel, the rear is so light that any application of the rear brake will result in locking up the rear wheel, and that is a condition most people have very little experience with and hence the rider has an even more difficult situation to deal with.

Maximum front braking and a locked up rear wheel -- tough even for a veteran rider to manage properly. What's the general rule for managing a locked up rear wheel? Keep it locked until you come to a stop. Consider that senario when you panic brake in traffic.

Bottom line is, practice over and over again the fundamental skills you learned in school, keep your wits about you, and don't try to keep up with faster riders. After you get 5,000 miles under your belt, attend a Keigwin school. Then your schooling will truly begin. :cool

 

[Monkey_Boy]

You post isn't too bad up until this part:

... It is more appropriate to teach a novice proper use of the controls rather than teach them to give up controls that they haven't mastered yet.

Except in low traction situations, the proper use of the rear brake is don't use it. Is that clear enough?

 

[argh]

I disagree. Initiating braking with gentle rear brake compresses the suspension, and allows you to apply more front braking force without the rear wheel leaving the ground. Bike geometry will play a part in determining how effective this is, but two contact patches are better than one for slowing down.

If you're incapable of not being a spazz on the rear brake (and I count myself in this group), you might find it effective to rotate the brake pedal lower or else introduce some air into the line to make it spongy.

"Only use the front brake" is an oversimplified solution that doesn't use all the tools in your toolbox, IMHO.

 

[Enchanter]

If the rear wheel is on the ground, then the rear brake provides some benefit.

Most street riders do not use their front brake enough. As such, there is more weight on the rear wheel and the rear brake is more effective.

Referencing racing and using it in a conversation to a street rider is foolish. How many times does Yates brake to a stop? And has been referenced before, using the rear brake will aid in reducing the initial weight trasfer thereby allowing more control and subsequent use of the rear brake.

Not every motorcyclist wants to ride their bike at or near the limits of traction. 90% of street riding is done at speeds and in situations where the rear brake is usefull.

 

[Monkey_Boy]

Sure it's easy to use the rear brake in 90% of riding situations, so I can't disagree with you there. However, 90% of one's riding don't present the challenges of dealing with the situations where your life is in danger, ie a panic stop. In such situations, you don't have time to think, you simply "do" and without the right training newer riders will take the wrong actions. THis is why we tell riders it's not a matter of IF you will crash, but WHEN.

The idea of using the rear brake to settle the suspension is just so much nonsense. The weight transfer still has to happen. So what if you touch the rear brake to cause the rear to squat, then apply the front brake? Many riders think there's some magical benefit to this. I would agree those combined actions may reduce some discomfort for a passenger, but otherwise it's meaningless. Why? Because braking in non-panic situations can be done in many ways and they will make NO DIFFERENCE to your life one way or the other. However, habitual use of the controls in ways that don't develop the right discipline will result in wrong actions when it really matters.

Here's what will happen to the vast majority of newer riders who use the rear brake all the time: In a panic situation this rider will probably press the rear brake so hard he'll lock up the rear wheel, and likely will not even touch the front brake because he grips the bars in fear. All you have to do is look at the typical motorcycle accident scene. One long skid mark and a seriously injured rider. The front tire didn't produce that skid mark...

The essential point is, you can develop and use any sort of good or bad habit on a motorcycle and most of the time it will work. But it is only the good habits that will serve you well in a panic situation. So, learn good habits or you may pay for it with your life.

If you want to hold onto the idea that the rear brake is so important for street riding, fine. I can't help you if you're determined to remain deluded. :laughing

 

[Roundboy]

A Twist of the Wrist
A twist of the Wrist 2, by Keith Code

Great reading

Beat me to it.

+1

 

[Enchanter]

THis is why we tell riders it's not a matter of IF you will crash, but WHEN.

Who is the 'we' you refer to?

I can't help you if you're determined to remain deluded. :laughing

Right back at you.

 

[Monkey_Boy]

Who is the 'we' you refer to?



Right back at you.

:laughing

Well, "we" is any experienced rider who's been around the block. I hope you do agree the issue is when and not if.

In my case, many years of riding, my share of crashes and mistakes, and providing instruction to other riders, including classroom and on track and street. My signature may provide a clue. :teeth

 

[tzrider]

Don't overly concern yourself with countersteering, as steering a bike is pretty much a natural thing. Practice looking through corners - all the time.

While looking through turns is important, you can't steer a bike with your eyeballs.

Given your outlook on steering and your role as an instructor, do you not bother with teaching your students how to steer? Considering the great number of accident investigations that conclude that a rider could have avoided a hazard by steering, but failed to do so, I have to disagree with you that steering is a natural thing. I have encountered many, many riders who couldn't steer a bike effectively and would tell you that anyone in that situation is a danger to themselves.

Effective steering is the most powerful tool a rider has for avoiding collisions, second to none. Countersteering is the one and only way to make quick, drastic direction changes and anyone who rides and takes their safety seriously should be able to do it well and at a split second's notice.

 

[plumber]

I'm still waiting to hear who has the biggest Johnson, the MSF instructor or the Keigwan instructor.

I'll settle the bet for you. Get ABS and leave the braking to the computer. It's not the end all answer but it sure has saved my ass. It's the main reason why I bought the RT, servo assisted ABS. I'm sure Mr. Yates can beat the computer but I can't.

 

[argh]

I may be an idiot, but I'm in good company.

"..But studies prove that a combination of front and rear braking will stop a bike more quickly and in less distance than just using the front brake. Many riders have found that applying the rear brake nanoseconds before the front brake helps settle the bike because the rear suspension isn't so eager to rebound, a trait that helps reduce the forward weight transfer. Because they have longer wheelbases and can be used to carry passengers, many non-sport bikes have extremely usable rear brake systems. So from a functional point of view, it's a good idea to educate your right foot on the pedal." -Sport Riding Techniques, Nick Ienatsch

"The ideal braking curve corresponding to equations (9) and (10) is represented in Figure 3. As an example, let us assume that the braking traction coefficient is [..] which corresponds to the straight lines RO and FO for the rear and the front tire respectively.
The admissible braking maneuvers (having [..]) are contained in the grey area of the plot. If only the rear
brake is used, the maximum braking force is S(tot) = 766N and leads to a deceleration of x = 0.285g (point R). If only the front brake is used, the maximum braking force is S(tot) = 1400N and leads to a deceleration of
x = 0.561g (point F). The use of the
ideal braking repartition makes it possible to obtain a greater total braking force and deceleration (point O) S(tot) = 1950N and x = 0.73g. Figure 3 shows that the ideal value of the front braking force increases with the braking intensity. On the contrary, the ideal rear force grows until it reaches a maximum, then it decreases to zero under stoppie condition. Moreover, it may be
observed that the rear braking force is always smaller than the front one"

-- On the Braking Behavior of Motorcycles , Vittore Cossalter, Roberto Lot and Fabiano Maggio, University of Padova (a SAE paper)
:nerd