Limits

[Enchanter]

Limits are something that we always use when talking about the rider . . . what about limits of the road? Limits of vision and sight?

I think that the limits of the road are perceived differently by everyone. A persons personal limits will ultimately determine how they interpret the limit of the road. Some riders look at another rider go through a given turn at a 'fast' rate and think to themselves "my turn". When they attempt to copy the rider they observed, they crash. Was it the limit of the road or their own personal limit that they exceeded?

From the first post:

In fact, there can be no objective measure of “limit” because it varies from one rider to the next. It usually isn’t a limit of the road or the motorcycle that gets a rider into trouble, but a limit of skill or confidence. So to describe it in a useful way, it must be something you can learn to recognize, a warning that the edge of your personal envelope is approaching before it all goes to hell.

 

[masameet]

Well, there are road conditions, knowledge gained by riding and talking to more experienced riders and mechanics, and individual judgment.

And not knowing how evil tar snakes, wet leaves, painted signs on asphalt, traces of sand, wet street metal grates and plates, etc. are to a rider.

Or how one's tires show how one rides and maybe incorrectly.

Or not knowing the difference between a good risk and a not-so-good risk. I.e., making good judgments.

Here's just one example: I followed a more experienced rider not too long ago on a long ride. The three of us had discussed overtaking and passing cagers in tandem. We had a technique. But after a while it became clear that she as leader couldn't consistently gauge the distance between the oncoming car(s) and the amount of travel we'd have to do in tandem to pass safely over the broken yellow line.

 

[racerXgirl]

understandable. I also see people that aren't at the point where they are uncomfortable, however, as they entered a blind turn, there was something in there way that they didn't see/didn't have time to react to and took a tumble.

Road conditions from one day to the next are always changing, just offering that out as something to take into consideration as well.

 

[DataDan]

I think racerXgirl makes an interesting point about sight distance as a limit. I wonder how many crashes blamed on rider limits are really due to the more basic limit of how far anyone could see through the turn. Some riders are better able to deal with debris or a tightening radius, but sightlines are still a pretty hard limit in street riding (the track is completely different, of course) that everyone should be aware of.

An inexperienced rider who believes he's having a problem with certain turns due to his own shortcomings may keep trying different things to improve. But if the limit in those turns is his ability to see around them, changes to his riding can do very little to overcome it. I know this from personal experience. When I started to get serious about sport riding, I thought that should be able to reach a pretty steep lean angle in every turn. If I couldn't, it had to be something I was doing wrong. But there were some turns that always messed me up. It took a long time before I understood that my problem was that I couldn't just toss the bike into a blind turn; I needed to see what I was getting myself into. With that, I had discovered that sight distance--like grip--defined a fundamental limit in street riding. And once I had grasped the idea that some turns are better for aggressive riding than others, I became a better rider and had more fun.

The problem here for new riders here is that they, like me, could keep looking for a personal limit that's holding them up when it's more basic than that. And if they force they issue, it could lead to disaster.

A sight distance limit is easily recognizable and the symptoms are much different than those of a riding skill or confidence limit. The thread The Vanishing Point describes a technique for reading turns with limited sight distance.

 

[louemc]

understandable. I also see people that aren't at the point where they are uncomfortable, however, as they entered a blind turn, there was something in there way that they didn't see/didn't have time to react to and took a tumble.

Road conditions from one day to the next are always changing, just offering that out as something to take into consideration as well.

This is very frequently seen, in the Bay Area Experience.

Very much the case (I believe) in what brought 7 bikes down, because of a streak of oil intentionally put down, just West of La Honda.

A rider that develops (maybe by riding dirt/mud/some snow and ice) will always be looking (this brings up the sight line, or vanishing point that Data Dan mentioned) for hazards on pavement, and know how to cross them.
There is no shortage of hazards, dirt/gravel/water/animals/errant vehicles, being the Bay Area's more common, but whatever.

The burden falls on the biker to develop the mind set, to see the hazard and deal with it, or..... be a victim of it.

That brings it to the "limits" issue. The test of limits is always changing.
The riders that say they know their limits, are just saying they have managed their tests OK so far.

We ride in the most dangerous and challenging place a bike can be riden, by riding on the public road. We have to do better than most, because of it, to get back home in the same condition we were in when we left. :thumbup :cool

 

[tzrider]

Any deviation from what I planned to do is an indication to me that I'm beginning to go over my head. Most mistakes are accompanied by throttle control errors, so I monitor that in particular closely.

This only helps if you know specifically what you intend to do with the throttle. You can then compare what you intended to do with what you really did.

 

[Enchanter]

Dan, good points But one thing. The reality of street riding demands minor corrections in the turn, which is not a problem if on the throttle w/minor counter steering application.

The apex stuff, for me, is really not a factor as the line is narrow due to brush growing on the inside and on coming traffic on the outside. Even less a factor in goat trail turns and hairpins where counter steering is sluggish due to lack of throttle, so I just let the bike takes it's own line as the front turns on it's own anyway.

Just my style, may not work for some.

Hi scout.

 

[Blacknblue]

As I'm getting older, I find it more difficult to accurately and quickly assess the
road conditions after dark and in rapidly changing light conditions, i.e. diving into
and out of shaded areas. The hardest thing may actually be re-adjusting after being
bright-lighted. I bring this up since we will be heading into daylight savings time
on November 2nd. The funny thing is, I always liked riding on the freeways after
dark because I think (mistakenly?) I may be more visible to the other traffic.

 

[JeffKoch]

To me, riding beyond my limits on the street means narrowing my margin for error to a dangerous level, so that if the turn ahead isn't just what I expect (fresh gravel or an oil spill, or some garbage on the road, or a minivan partly in my lane), I can't compensate by braking or changing my line. If you're an experienced track hound, you know that you can't reach the limits of your skills or the bikes ability on the street (at least not on a modern sportbike), what limits you is margin for error. You want to keep a lot of margin for error.

Riding on tracks, the limit is when I start making mistakes due to fatigue, inability to concentrate, and plain old adrenaline rush - if I'm screwing up frequently and especially starting to scare myself, it's time to back off.

I remember this stage in street riding too, the symptom would be entering a corner "too hot" and being scared to turn the bike - instead, the reaction would be to over-brake and head straight. Whenever you're out of your comfort zone and starting to make mistakes, it's time to back off - save pushing the limits for a controlled environment like a racetrack.

 

[Dandelion]

I like this thread because having a strategy for learning is key.

I had a tennis coach in high school who said that to learn topspin I had two choices. I could whack the ball really hard and it would go out of bounds everytime until I learned how to control the power and bring it in bounds or I could start with less force and add to it. I opted to whack it to the moon because I needed to develop arm strength at the same time that I was learning the technique. He was an awesome coach and I did very well. Beyond making me the #1 player :cool he tought me to look for strategies to learn faster.:nerd

So my goal last year when I started riding was to survive:rip and not embarass myself too bad while I figured this out. For the survival part my strategy became - pass MSF, buy and read cover to cover (multiple times) four top rated motorcycle books and join two online forums and a local club.

For the not embarassing myself part that didn't go so well. I rode through paint and another time I accidentally wheelied for the first time trying to keep up on a group ride. :loser In both circumstances I had made mistakes and went over it in my mind and resolved no to repeat the mistake. :shame I rehearsed in my mind what I would do differently next time and when similar situations came up I was fine.

That's when this quote and others like it from the books hit home...

The sign that a rider is pushing the limit of a particular skill thus becomes an early warning that more serious trouble isn't far off.

I backed off because the option of whacking the throttle open "to the moon" was a deathwish. So I started with a little power and added to it. Once I felt I had reached a point where I was ready I took it to the track because my moto club recommended it as the next step in training. This was a real eye opener and resulted in a complete reset of limits.

I made plenty of mistakes at the track - near asspacking another rider, "wow these brakes are gnarly!" crazy lines "oops sorry buddy":blush and "wtf are you doing?",:wtf but so far I hadn't crashed. Then one day when I was convinced that I wasn't making a mistake and in fact getting the hang of it I found myself sliding 50' across the track. :wow Again I went back and analyzed the situation and not only that, but recalled what others had said to me earlier in the day that should have tipped me off "you're throwing it into turns, smooth it out," "take off the peg feelers if you're dragging them," and a couple of these looks :rolleyes from instructors.

What specific limits have you found that hinder your riding? How do you recognize them? And what do you do to overcome them?

Once I realized just how far I had slid I immediately mentally reset my personal limits for the street. That guardrail, oncoming car, and roadkill got new respect. Now I enjoy the scenery and take my time being as smooth as possible while being in an attentive yet relaxed state. I don't have to prove anything to anyone. :ride

I love the track now but after realizing that my crash amounted to a $1000 in repairs I pay more attention to the instructors, quit when I get tired, and solicit lots of advice. So far I'm still alive which was and continues to be my goal.

 

[DataDan]

Doc Wong recently suggested "symptoms of riding over your head" as a topic for a 1Rider thread to help riders recognize what's going wrong before it really goes wrong. I think that's an excellent idea, and it brought to mind this thread from last year, which was originally posted in Training. I've moved it over here to 1Rider so Doc and everyone else who has some ideas on the subject can offer their suggestions.

Doc makes the point that the subject "Limits" suggests barriers that are permanent and insurmountable. But the barriers that produce the symptoms a rider experiences often reflect the rider's skill level at a particular time, so they can be overcome with training and practice. However, I think it's also useful to include in this thread recognition of barriers that really are insurmountable, such as sight distance, grip, etc., so I've left the original title.

 

[DocWong]

"Limits" change over time according to one's skill level, environment and one's mental level for that time. We can also call it riding beyond your "Safety Envelope" or some such besides "Riding Beyond Your Skill Level."

Anyway, buy riding within your scope of control, you can maintain a much better safety margin for any kind of riding. Even when I'm on the track, I'm riding within my skill level. When I push it, then funky things begin to happen and even Eddie Larson in Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist states that when that happens to him, he slows down.

So here's my take on some of the things that happen that can alert you or those you ride with, that you or a buddy are going beyond their skill levels:

1. Grip getting tight on the bars. This along with straightening your arms is a formula for disaster as steering gets stiff and extra unwanted steering inputs are given by the rider to the bars. Not to mention that this causes hand, wrist and neck problems.

2. A feeling of uneasy and uncomfortableness occurs. This comes from a sense that something is wrong, though you may not know what it is at the time. When full blown, this becomes panic. Other symptoms as hesitation, loss of time or space can also occur.

3. Vision narrows, so all you see is the road in front of you. As this gets worse you start to look too close, then as near panic comes, you fixate your attention on where you're going to crash. AKA "Target Fixation or Tunnel Vision" from Code's Twist of the Wrist.

4. Lines of travel in the corner needs unnecessary line correction. For example, you go in too wide, turn in too much and then have to make another correction.

5. The rider seems hurried, like there's not enough time to make a good calm solid decision. Speeds can be fast, however a rider in control has plenty of "time" to make good decisions.

6. Can't get on the gas at the start of the turn or off the throttle in the corner, or shutting off the throttle mid-corner because the rider feels they are going too fast and uncontrollably shuts down the gas. In reality if you were truly going too fast for that given corner, shutting down the throttle will more than likely cause a crash.

7. "Trying" to keep up with a faster rider. This is definitely a formula for trouble.

8. Slower with poor control in the corners and then gassing it on the straights to make up time to keep up with other riders.

9. Turns in too early for fear of making the turn. This of course sets the rider up for running wide in a turn.


Any others you're noticed?

 

[knight500]

limits and racing

Great thread by the way.

I've had plenty of experience exploring and finding 'limits' in different riding experiences. But I've found over time that the most comfortable and inviting place to learn about limits is the race track. It's funny because I've been hurt many times and almost died racing motorcycles yet the environment for me just screams for the opportunity to learn the limits of each experience. When I'm on the street now I think mostly about the limits of traffic and road conditions, never the limits of my machine or skill level. Pretty much all I do anymore on the street is commute anyway so these are the limits that change the most from ride to ride.

Racing also seems to magnify limits as well. It also gives you more opportunity to repeat conditions/mistakes over and over which greatly steepens the learning curve. The angle of the learning curve is directly related to the amount of riding you do (as well as other things) which also changes with your level of experience. Then exploring limits seems to make the learning curve jump to a different level. And racing is all about trying to go faster so you've got to know where all the limits are or you won't know how fast you can go.

 

[DocWong]

Yes, from what I've seen and heard from friends, racing does encourage you to reach beyond your limits, but even then I'm sure the steps are small steps and not great leaps and bounds of speeds higher.

Doc

Great thread by the way.

I've had plenty of experience exploring and finding 'limits' in different riding experiences. But I've found over time that the most comfortable and inviting place to learn about limits is the race track. It's funny because I've been hurt many times and almost died racing motorcycles yet the environment for me just screams for the opportunity to learn the limits of each experience. When I'm on the street now I think mostly about the limits of traffic and road conditions, never the limits of my machine or skill level. Pretty much all I do anymore on the street is commute anyway so these are the limits that change the most from ride to ride.

Racing also seems to magnify limits as well. It also gives you more opportunity to repeat conditions/mistakes over and over which greatly steepens the learning curve. The angle of the learning curve is directly related to the amount of riding you do (as well as other things) which also changes with your level of experience. Then exploring limits seems to make the learning curve jump to a different level. And racing is all about trying to go faster so you've got to know where all the limits are or you won't know how fast you can go.

 

[budman]

Great thread by the way.

I've had plenty of experience exploring and finding 'limits' in different riding experiences. But I've found over time that the most comfortable and inviting place to learn about limits is the race track. It's funny because I've been hurt many times and almost died racing motorcycles yet the environment for me just screams for the opportunity to learn the limits of each experience. When I'm on the street now I think mostly about the limits of traffic and road conditions, never the limits of my machine or skill level. Pretty much all I do anymore on the street is commute anyway so these are the limits that change the most from ride to ride.

Racing also seems to magnify limits as well. It also gives you more opportunity to repeat conditions/mistakes over and over which greatly steepens the learning curve. The angle of the learning curve is directly related to the amount of riding you do (as well as other things) which also changes with your level of experience. Then exploring limits seems to make the learning curve jump to a different level. And racing is all about trying to go faster so you've got to know where all the limits are or you won't know how fast you can go.

Great call on where to find those limits.. certainly the track is the first place.. and to further explore those racing sure does make that possible. Competition will allow for further exploration than just the social track day. You find yourself going for it.. and when OK.. it can become part of your new "Limit".
May take a few times doing it, but it will come with repetition.

The search for your Riding limits on the street where riding limits mean the edge of motorcycle control is foolish and a great way to end up as paint on a guardrail. I explained my own "street limits" here: http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=305645

:smoking

 

[flying_hun]

After a weekend with the first decent weather of the summer riding season, now would be a good time to review the most excellent wisdom found in this thread. Below are a few quoted gems that resonate particularly for me, but there are many more pearls of wisdom to be harvested from the posts of DD, Enchanter, and others.

Self-awareness is so key. Even skilled and experienced riders can be caught out. A beautiful day. A group of friends. A great road. The speed gets upped..... How do you know when you're riding too fast for your own skillset? How do you know when you've used up your margin of skill/safety? Self-awareness, the "tells" that Enchanter lists below are a start.

Asking yourself a few key questions:

• Am I holding my breath, or breathing naturally?
• Are my fingers tight around the grips, or can I easily wiggle them on the bars?
• Are my elbows stiff?
• Am I looking through the turn, or am I focused on the rider in front of me?
• Am I repeatedly making mid-turn corrections?
• If (fill in the blank) happens, can I execute an escape strategy?
• Are the muscles in my lower back tense?

The list goes on and on. Are you paying attention? How do you respond to the answers of the above questions?

This thread has lots of insight in it useful for ALL riders. Have a read. Thank DD if learning from it gets you home safe.

Visual skills are at the heart of sport riding.

Here are some symptoms I've experienced when my eyes aren't doing a good enough job of leading me through the turns:

• Feeling "lost". Rather than having a proper grasp of where I am in the turn and accurately perceiving speed, I briefly feel panic about how fast I'm going, where I am, and where I'm going relative to my plan.
  
  
• Target fixation. This is related to the "lost" feeling. I find myself looking at something I shouldn't be looking at, such as a roadside hazard.
  
  
• Mid-turn corrections. Executed well, a curve on a motorcycle is fluid and effortless. After getting leaned over, the bike tracks smoothly, as if on a tether that maintains constant force and turn radius. Executed poorly, continuous adjustments to speed and line are needed.

If you experience any of these, you may be hitting the limit of your visual skill. To overcome the problem, first slow down to free up mental bandwidth for attention to technique. Then follow a systematic process to keep your eyes ahead of the motorcycle and focused on the right things:

• As you approach a curve, spot a turn-in point where you will make your steering input.
  
  
• Before you reach that point, move your focus to a point at the apex you want to hit.
  
  
• When you reach turn-in, steer. Because you're visually aiming for the apex, your steering input will be accurate.
  
  
• After you've steered the bike, it no longer does any good to be looking at the apex. Quickly move focus to a point at turn exit that will keep the bike on your planned line.
  
  
• In a less severe turn, your aim point may be at the exit rather than the apex, eliminating one visual reference point
  
  
• In a long turn like a 270° freeway offramp, you'll need multiple mid-turn reference points instead of just one.

To avoid crashing while riding, I have learned to pay attention to a few personal 'tells', that show me that I am raising my risk instead of holding it steady or lowering it. Here are a few. They are not in any particular order.

- While cornering, I notice the motorcycle is not actually taking the path of travel that I intend(ed) it to.
- When I notice my heart rate going up due to emotions (fear) rather than physical exercise (tossing the bike around).
- When I start locking my inside arm/elbow (when cornering).
- When I start adjusting my line by leaning my torso instead of just using counter-steering (see locked elbow above).
- When my eyes start straying to the edge of the road (or track) instead of where I want to end up.
- When I find that I am reacting to other vehicles after they threaten me instead of accurately predicting their action prior to it taking place.
- When I am unable to clear my head of thoughts unrelated to riding. (distractions)

 

[Beauregard]

Besides being way too "self aware" that I had to pee, Dan and I had a great ride yesterday. You will never see a more competent rider on an ST.

 

[horsepower]

Besides being way too "self aware" that I had to pee, Dan and I had a great ride yesterday. You will never see a more competent rider on an ST.

BEAUUUUUU!!!!!!!arty:ride:banana:banana:banana back by popular demand.:cool

 

[Beauregard]

BEAUUUUUU!!!!!!!arty:ride:banana:banana:banana back by popular demand.:cool

Thank you for the warm welcome back. Stokes me.

 

[ThumperX]

Flying_Hun,
Thanks for bumping this with some of the key points. I am taking off for a beautiful ride today and rereading these points is a great reminder to ride well :thumbup