Limits

[DataDan]

We often discuss “limits” in the context of sportriding but never in specific terms. You know, “He crashed because he was riding beyond his limits,” without saying what limits were exceeded. I think it's tremendously valuable to be able to understand specific rider limits and recognize their symptoms. With that knowledge, we can identify skills that need improving and even exercises to develop them.


Defining limits in terms of crashing—you’ll know you’ve exceeded your limits when you’re sliding across the road and watching your bike tumble over a cliff—obviously isn’t very helpful. Speed isn’t a useful measure either. On some twisty roads, the speed limit is much too fast for many turns. On others, soccer moms in their minivans go faster.

In fact, there can be no objective measure of “limit” because it varies from one rider to the next. It usually isn’t a limit of the road or the motorcycle that gets a rider into trouble, but a limit of skill or confidence. So to describe it in a useful way, it must be something you can learn to recognize, a warning that the edge of your personal envelope is approaching before it all goes to hell.

One measure is the occurrence of those anxiety-producing “moments”. That is the subject of one of my favorite articles about sport riding, Degrees of Control by Jeff Hughes in Sport Rider.

But I think it’s also possible to identify limits at a finer level of detail, because there isn’t just one limit to our abilities; there are many. Here are some that I often work on:

• sizing up a turn, judging an appropriate entry speed, and planning a line
  
  
• keeping eyes and brain ahead of the motorcycle
  
  
• steering the bike quickly and accurately to a planned line
  
  
• leaning the bike to an angle that will achieve a planned trajectory
  
  
• dealing with surprises

My theory is that recognizable effects occur when particular limits are exceeded. For example, if you find yourself looking at the pavement 6 feet in front of you, something is limiting your ability to stay mentally ahead of the motorcycle. Further, I think that big trouble usually doesn’t result from exceeding one limit, but from combining them. “Lazy” steering, as Code calls it, becomes a more serious problem when it is combined with too much entry speed or a poorly planned line.

The sign that a rider is pushing the limit of a particular skill thus becomes an early warning that more serious trouble isn't far off. We all have bad days, and next weekend you might find yourself feeling anxious about lean angle. If you try to gut it out and hope the feeling goes away, it's just a matter of time before you simultaneously hit some other limit and the two combine to create a serious problem. But if you recognize that feeling—probably a vague uneasiness as you lean the bike into a turn—and identify the cause, you can prevent disaster by heeding the warning. Cut back on entry speed to reduce lean angle demand until your confidence improves.

In this thread I hope to get experienced riders to post their thoughts about these key skills and thought processes, the symptoms of exceeding the limits capped by those skills, and techniques for breaking through.

What specific limits have you found that hinder your riding? How do you recognize them? And what do you do to overcome them?

 

[imurdaddy415]

Its funny I think I had a limit tester a dew days ago. I was riding back down 84 to 35 when I saw two guy on bmw's going slow and I wanted to pass. I never pass someone unless I have a straight away or can see far enough ahead, but that day something just made me not think. I passed these guys right before a blind right turn, I hand barely enough time to adjust my line.

As I entered the right run from the DY (like a dumbass) I saw a few suvs coming at me and almost, almost! fixated on them. But my better judgement made me lean pretty damn hard and make the turn and continue. Moral Im never riding like a idiot again, but hey atleast I know now that I didnt choke and make a dumb mistake.

 

[darkie]

The interesting thing about "limits" from my point of view is this: one important limit is the limit of a rider's knowledge as to what the motorcycle wants from him and not being able to provide it. A general example being a rider going into a turn with poor throttle control, upsetting the bike and losing traction as a result. A better rider may be able to go even faster in that same turn without losing traction due to better throttle control. So in this case the slower rider, lacking an understanding of what the bike wanted from him, caused a crash when speed was not necessarily the issue.

 

[littlebeast]

it might be helpful to think of limits in 2 ways; actual skill limits that are the result of deliberate, informed riding, as opposed to limits that a rider finds by accident - complacency (i've done this a thousand times - i know how to do it), inattention (wtf????), mechanical (whoa - my bike just doesn't work that way), etc. speaking personally, most of my biggest failures have been associated with the second type. hate to sound anal in needing a definition of 'limit', but that's how i'm built.

 

[ThumperX]

Great topic! I too have a difficult time wrapping my mind around the concept of "limits." I see the term used liberally without any clear definition, yet a limit is truly one of the more defined concepts out there. "specify: decide upon or fix definitely; "fix the variables"; "specify the parameters"

I find that my "limits" have significantly constricted since my accident. Does that mean my skill has diminished? I think it means that my mind has reset my limits so as to never again involve asphalt into my life. Now I must work toward expanding my limits, not exceeding them.

 

[DataDan]

A general example being a rider going into a turn with poor throttle control, upsetting the bike and losing traction as a result. A better rider may be able to go even faster in that same turn without losing traction due to better throttle control.

Can you develop that idea further?

The specific limit you're talking about is the rider's ability to control throttle at turn entry. What do you mean by that? What is good throttle control and how is it distinguished from bad throttle control?

What are the symptoms of that error? Not "crashes when the front end tucks"; that's a little too late. What would you notice when instructing that would prompt you to take the rider aside and talk about it? More importantly for this thread, what would the rider notice that he should interpret as a sign that his deceleration throttle control needs work? What does it feel like to be poorly controlling the gas at turn entry?

Finally, how can a rider help himself to develop this skill? To go along with his knowledge of what wrong feels like, he needs to know what right feels like. And, any tips for getting from wrong to right?

 

[tzrider]

The interesting thing about "limits" from my point of view is this: one important limit is the limit of a rider's knowledge as to what the motorcycle wants from him and not being able to provide it. A general example being a rider going into a turn with poor throttle control, upsetting the bike and losing traction as a result. A better rider may be able to go even faster in that same turn without losing traction due to better throttle control. So in this case the slower rider, lacking an understanding of what the bike wanted from him, caused a crash when speed was not necessarily the issue.

In your example, does the slower rider not know what good throttle control is? Or does he know, but not execute?

 

[afm199]

My two bits worth:

If you are riding and you are finding yourself constantly correcting, worrying, nervous, hesitant or just ill at ease, you are too close to your limits. If the ride is not fun, easy, exciting and devoid of constant worry, you are probably doing something right.

 

[JPK]

My two bits worth:

If you are riding and you are finding yourself constantly correcting, worrying, nervous, hesitant or just ill at ease, you are too close to your limits. If the ride is not fun, easy, exciting and devoid of constant worry, you are probably doing something right.

This is a great topic and very timely for me personally as I prepare to take my MSF class and buy my first motorcycle. In preparation, I've read 'Proficient Motorcycling' and 'Twist of the Wrist I', and a lot of the comments here seem to resonate with what Keith Code talks about regarding spending your $10 of attention wisely, and in approaching riding in a methodical fashion.

From what I understand of Keith's teachings, on a track you measure your limits through the use of products, sub-products, points of timing, feedback from the bike (vibration through the rear wheel to indicate the limit of traction, etc), and resultant corner exit speeds, lap times, etc. This strikes me as a much more controlled method and environment for discovering and advancing one's limits that trying to do this on the street. Also, Keith talks about the use of as many reference points as possible in a turn to create one continuous picture of a turn, rather than jumping visually and mentally from one sub-product to another, and that if your $10 of attention is spread too thin you won't be able to track these points in a continuous fashion and have a good view of the entire turn. You'll get too fixated on the next point or two, or feel like the "movie" is just running by way too fast and you're out of control.

Is this basically what you're saying also?

 

[tavin]

'limits' is going beyond the comfort zone. The comfort zone flexes in depth on each ride, starting somewhat small, then growing after an hour or two, assuming riding conditions are good.

Then we also have the big picture:

What is comfortable to me is crazy to a newb, and what is comfortable to a pro racer is way beyond me.

 

[DataDan]

afm199 wrote: If you are riding and you are finding yourself constantly correcting, worrying, nervous, hesitant or just ill at ease, you are too close to your limits. If the ride is not fun, easy, exciting and devoid of constant worry, you are probably doing something right.

tavin wrote: 'limits' is going beyond the comfort zone.

Well put. That's the theme of the essay Degrees of Control mentioned in my first post (now linked). Hughes writes:

Maybe, just maybe, it's not about speed after all--at least not in the way we usually think of it. Maybe it's about something else, something as simple as the degree of control we exercise over a span of road.

It might happen on any ride, on any Sunday. We head out with some buddies, or maybe we hook up with that group of guys we were talking to down at the gas station, or maybe that devil on our shoulder is simply a little more vigorous in his exhortations this day. However it happens, we soon get to the road. The good one. The one that brought us out here in the first place. And there, in that mix of camaraderie and good tarmac and adrenaline-laced delight, we find ourselves giving away that which we had sworn to hold tight to--our judgment. It doesn't happen all at once. We give it away a little click here, a little click there, like a ratcheting cord. Soon, rolling through the curves faster and faster and laughing under our helmets all the while, we enter a new realm.

We've all been there. We instantly know we're in a new place because it's suddenly different. Our lines are no longer quite so clean. We're on the brakes more, and we're making little mistakes in our timing. And instead of that Zen-like rush through the corners we enjoyed just moments ago--the state of grace that is the prize of this sport--we're now caught up in the brief slivers of time between corners trying to fix those mistakes. They seem to be coming faster now--both the corners and the mistakes--and there doesn't seem to be quite enough time to do what we need to do, the errors piling up in an increasingly dissonant heap. Our normally smooth riding is suddenly ragged, with an edgy and anxious quality. Inside our helmets the laughter mutes and then is gone altogether, replaced by a grim determination to stay on pace. We start to mutter little self-reproaches with each newborn error.​

Going beyond the overall sense that limits are being exceeded, do you have specific examples of what it's like to bust a particular limit? What's the symptom, what's the cause, and what's the solution?

 

[DataDan]

I find that my "limits" have significantly constricted since my accident. Does that mean my skill has diminished? I think it means that my mind has reset my limits so as to never again involve asphalt into my life. Now I must work toward expanding my limits, not exceeding them.

Your new limits are of confidence, not skill. I included those in the description in my first post because they're just as real. For example, you may be able to lean the motorcycle over to the footpeg feelers and have done so previously without drama. But you're now worried about grip or clearance and are unwilling to lean as far as you have in the past. That unwillingness to lean the bike can then lead to mistakes such as chopping the throttle in mid-turn or running wide and crossing the centerline or fogline.

The idea of identifying the personal limit you're approaching from the symptoms you feel is equally valid for a limit of confidence and a limit of skill. Think about the mistakes you're now making and the situations that make you feel uncomfortable. In those are clues to the specific confidence limits you're approaching. And once you understand the limits that are giving you problems, you can work on rebuilding confidence.

 

[tavin]

Ah, thanks Dan, Hughes knows, and so do you, as what he wrote remained salient in your memory.

Piloting a bike, in terms of progression of the comfort zone, takes time/practice, and always within the limits/comfort zone.

Since that's where the fun is, why go beyond the fun zone?

Thanks for an excellent thread.

Another way of looking at the comfort zone: if another rider rides faster, then that means to me that his comfort zone is more advanced than mine, hopefully. I'll catch him when he stops to wait for me.

 

[Blacknblue]

I face this question alot because I don't ride often. My limits tend to slowly expand, peak, and then diminish as I grow fatigued. I try to be extra careful at the beginning and at the end of a ride as I'm constantly re-learning the essentials. It's not like I really mind since I know I need to focus on my riding. It takes awhile for me to really feel comfortable, but when I get there, it feels solid. I think this is where intuition enters the picture and acts to harmonize my various inputs, both physical and mental. In swimming it's called "a feel for the water." In running "hitting ones stride." The newer term: "Flow."

Sorry if this is too "touchy-feely" but we are in California, so I trust it's forgiven.:laughing

 

[DataDan]

Recognizing visual skill limits

Visual skills are at the heart of sport riding. After you've mastered the MSF-level physical skills for controlling the motorcycle, it's your eyes that will get you through turns faster and safer. The visual skill that has most helped my riding is what might be called visual sequencing--advancing focus step by step through a curve from turn-in to exit. The objective is to keep your eyes and brain ahead of the motorcycle and to map your path by identifying key points on a planned line.

At slow to moderate speed, this isn't a critical skill. Turns unfold gradually and simply looking through the turn as MSF teaches works well. But as speed increases, greater precision is needed and the margin for error decreases. Visually and mentally you can get behind the situation or stray from your planned line and quickly get into trouble. The same thing can happen when you're tired at the end of a long day.

Here are some symptoms I've experienced when my eyes aren't doing a good enough job of leading me through the turns:

• Feeling "lost". Rather than having a proper grasp of where I am in the turn and accurately perceiving speed, I briefly feel panic about how fast I'm going, where I am, and where I'm going relative to my plan.
  
  
• Target fixation. This is related to the "lost" feeling. I find myself looking at something I shouldn't be looking at, such as a roadside hazard.
  
  
• Mid-turn corrections. Executed well, a curve on a motorcycle is fluid and effortless. After getting leaned over, the bike tracks smoothly, as if on a tether that maintains constant force and turn radius. Executed poorly, continuous adjustments to speed and line are needed.

If you experience any of these, you may be hitting the limit of your visual skill. To overcome the problem, first slow down to free up mental bandwidth for attention to technique. Then follow a systematic process to keep your eyes ahead of the motorcycle and focused on the right things:

• As you approach a curve, spot a turn-in point where you will make your steering input.
  
  
• Before you reach that point, move your focus to a point at the apex you want to hit.
  
  
• When you reach turn-in, steer. Because you're visually aiming for the apex, your steering input will be accurate.
  
  
• After you've steered the bike, it no longer does any good to be looking at the apex. Quickly move focus to a point at turn exit that will keep the bike on your planned line.
  
  
• In a less severe turn, your aim point may be at the exit rather than the apex, eliminating one visual reference point
  
  
• In a long turn like a 270° freeway offramp, you'll need multiple mid-turn reference points instead of just one.

This process is explained--better than I'm able to--by Keith Code in Twist II, Nick Ienatsch in Sport Riding Techniques, and Lee Parks in Total Control. All three of these books do an excellent job on visual skills.

 

[Blacknblue]

Damn, DataDan. You just did a pretty good job yourself. Very well written. Thanks.

 

[tavin]

Dan, good points But one thing. The reality of street riding demands minor corrections in the turn, which is not a problem if on the throttle w/minor counter steering application.

The apex stuff, for me, is really not a factor as the line is narrow due to brush growing on the inside and on coming traffic on the outside. Even less a factor in goat trail turns and hairpins where counter steering is sluggish due to lack of throttle, so I just let the bike takes it's own line as the front turns on it's own anyway.

Just my style, may not work for some.

 

[Enchanter]

To avoid crashing while riding, I have learned to pay attention to a few personal 'tells', that show me that I am raising my risk instead of holding it steady or lowering it. Here are a few. They are not in any particular order.

- While cornering, I notice the motorcycle is not actually taking the path of travel that I intend(ed) it to.
- When I notice my heart rate going up due to emotions (fear) rather than physical exercise (tossing the bike around).
- When I start locking my inside arm/elbow (when cornering).
- When I start adjusting my line by leaning my torso instead of just using counter-steering (see locked elbow above).
- When my eyes start straying to the edge of the road (or track) instead of where I want to end up.
- When I find that I am reacting to other vehicles after they threaten me instead of accurately predicting their action prior to it taking place.
- When I am unable to clear my head of thoughts unrelated to riding. (distractions)

 

[DataDan]

When I find that I am reacting to other vehicles after they threaten me instead of accurately predicting their action prior to it taking place.

Really good point. Getting pissed off at something a driver has done tells me that I wasn't paying attention and it might be a good time for a short break.

 

[racerXgirl]

Limits are something that we always use when talking about the rider . . . what about limits of the road? Limits of vision and sight?